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(Paladin archetypes) Holy Guide + Sacred Shield?


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

Okay, spent some time adding the Holy Guide to my [PFS] Sacred Shield paladin (and a bunch of prestige points to add the archetype), but now I'm second guessing it. Are they compatible?

In terms of class abilties replaced, it's in the clear.

I had overlooked that the Tactician-like ability "Teamwork Feat (Ex)" for the holy guide has the option sacrifice uses of Smite Evil to share the feat with allies. Smite Evil is one of the replaced abilites with the Sacred Shield. So while there is no conflict in swapped abilities, I obviously can't use this portion of "Teamwork Feat (Ex)" when I lack Smite Evil (I have nothing to sacrifice), but the ability also grants me a teamwork feat which I could use normally without Smite Evil.

Is that enough to make the class archetypes incompatible?

Scarab Sages

If it matters, the Bastion of Good (Su), the ability with which the Sacred Shield swaps for Smite Evil, does mention that it counts as Smite Evil for "feats, abilities, and the like that increases a paladin's uses of Smite Evil per day" to instead increase the uses of Bastion of Good (Su) per day. So the case could be made that Bastion of Good (Su) counts as Smite Evil for the purposes of sacrificing uses per day.


They are inarguably compatible, but you may get a more strict individual that won't let you use bastion of good to activate the teamwork feat ability. Strictly speaking bastion only counts as smite for abilities that increase your number of smites. I'd allow it, but saying it requires a fast and loose interpretation of the rules is probably understating it a bit.

Worst case scenario though you are down a mercy, with an unlikely to be useful TW feat. If that mercy isn't critical for the odd GM who won't let it fly it's probably worth the risk. If you have a regular GM or know your local organiser well it's worth having a chat.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

It's going to be table variance.
I go with the "if it touches a swapped thing, it makes the archetype incompatible" as a rule.

You may need to go worse case scenario and either:

  • Reverse the adding of the archetype.
  • Operate as if you swapped out Teamwork Feat.
  • Operate at miniumum you can't use the swapped out ability.

Scarab Sages

Thanks. Many good points.

Did some further reading on it. I really should have quoted the entire Bastion of Hope in the OP (long ability to type manually). There is the bit I quoted regarding the increases, but further up it very plainly says, "This ability functions as smite evil, except that the paladin gains no benefit on attack and damage rolls against her target."

I think if it "functions as smite evil" I'm in the clear. Yeah, maybe table variation still, but I think I'm in the clear to use Bastion of Hope's uses per day as Smite Evil for the purposes of swapping them out for that teamwork feat sharing ability.

All that said, the point isn't to actually use this ability at all, I just need the archetype to be legal to combine with Sacred Shield.

I'm planning 5 levels as the Sacred Shield+Holy Guide paladin, 1 oracle, and then go with the Horizon Walker for the remaining PFS 6 levels (12th is about as high as we go, at least locally). The Teamwork Feat (ex) ability isn't gained until 6th, so I won't actually be getting that ability. Just needs to be able to get the ability to qualify as a legal archetype combination for PFS. Presently, the character is Paladin 2/Oracle 1.

Oracle is a Lore Mystery Oracle, just to get better knowledge skills for my low-int paladin. I always regret not having enough knowledge skills in PFS scenarios. I also wanted access to the cleric/oracle spell list for wands/scroll use. Plus I think the Oracle curses are really fun to role play...

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Wait one ability says it functions as smite evil? And another replaces smite evil?
Then both alter or replace smite evil and are not compatible.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
James Risner wrote:

Wait one ability says it functions as smite evil? And another replaces smite evil?

Then both alter or replace smite evil and are not compatible.

It looks to me like both of those are a single ability, which replaces smite evil but counts as smite evil for interactions with other effects. ^_^

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

I just read both archetypes.

Quote:

Teamwork Feat (Ex)

At 6th level, a holy guide gains a teamwork feat as a bonus feat. He must meet the prerequisites for this feat. As a standard action, He can expend one use of smite evil to grant this feat to all allies within 30 feet who can see and hear him. Allies retain the use of this bonus feat for 3 rounds plus 1 round for every 2 levels the holy guide possesses. Allies do not need to meet the prerequisites of this bonus feat. Evil creatures do not gain the benefit of this teamwork feat, even if the paladin considers them allies.

This ability replaces the mercy gained at 6th level.

The first thing to remember is that the "This ability replaces|modifies" is not required. Most of the early archetypes don't have those lines.

There is going to be a difference of opinion. Many people see stacking archetypes as very permissible. So there are a number of archetypes that have been considered stackable by man, and were not by FAQ/dev post. The biggest example is crossblooded/wild blooded and ones that modify class skills by adding some class skills.

To my view, this ability modifies your Smite Evil to add a new ability. In the same way as adding a new class skill to your class spell list, I don't think this would stack with another that modifies or replaces Smite Evil.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

I figure that since it's post-"replaces or alters", if it did modify smite evil, it would say so.

So, you know, expect table variation... and hope your table GM doesn't mark your character dead for a disagreement. :/

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Kalindlara wrote:
James Risner wrote:

Wait one ability says it functions as smite evil? And another replaces smite evil?

Then both alter or replace smite evil and are not compatible.
It looks to me like both of those are a single ability, which replaces smite evil but counts as smite evil for interactions with other effects. ^_^

Yeah, That's Bastion of Hope (Su), replaces and functions as Smite Evil. No other ability replaces or modifies Smite Evil.

The only point of confusion is that the Teamwork Feat (Ex) can sacrifice uses of Smite Evil in order to share teamwork feats (like Tactician). But that still isn't modifying or replacing Smite Evil...

Scarab Sages

Suppose I should have done this in the OP. Here's the Links to the class archetypes in question Sacred Shield (bottom of page) and Holy Guide (Top of page).


I'm not completely sure, so personally I'd shy away from it. It's probably a big deal if a GM says no. That or talk to all the people at your lodge for their view, or be ready to not play that guy if the GM rules no.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Chess Pwn wrote:
I'm not completely sure, so personally I'd shy away from it. It's probably a big deal if a GM says no. That or talk to all the people at your lodge for their view, or be ready to not play that guy if the GM rules no.

I was there with an Overrun focused Druid. Ultimately I stopped playing him at level 10. Too many GM had too many different opinions on how the rules worked with Greater Overrun, Elephant Stomp, Charge Through and Vicious Stomp.


James Risner wrote:


The first thing to remember is that the "This ability replaces|modifies" is not required. Most of the early archetypes don't have those lines.

To my view, this ability modifies your Smite Evil to add a new ability. In the same way as adding a new class skill to your class spell list, I don't think this would stack with another that modifies or replaces Smite Evil.

Yes, this exactly. The rules say two archetypes can not "alter" the same ability. These two archetypes both affect (or "alter") how Smite Evil works and what you can do with it.

Scarab Sages

For the record, local GMs ruled against this. So that's the end of this one for me. Thanks to all for the imput.


Would a class ability that lets you sacrifice a spell slot be considered altering spells? I don't think so.

What about sacrificing lay-on-hands for special paladin effects?

What about sacrificing ki, sneak attack die, or channels?

The text given lets you power a class ability by expending another ability. That other ability is not changed in any way.

/cevah

Scarab Sages

Cevah wrote:

The text given lets you power a class ability by expending another ability. That other ability is not changed in any way.

/cevah

But for me, the point was being able to use it in PFS, so even if I'm certain it works one way, that doesn't mean anything if I can't convince the GM that my way is correct. And I've found debating these things is fine on the forums, but tends to be unproductive with the actual GM once they've decided one way or another.

That's one of those differences between rules as written and rules in practice...


Cevah wrote:

Would a class ability that lets you sacrifice a spell slot be considered altering spells? I don't think so.

What about sacrificing lay-on-hands for special paladin effects?

What about sacrificing ki, sneak attack die, or channels?

The text given lets you power a class ability by expending another ability. That other ability is not changed in any way.

/cevah

we have no official clarification as far as I'm aware on how to rule this. Barring any official direction it's up the GM's to decide if they counts as altering the other feature or not. Personally I feel there's enough support for both sides. No it doesn't alter, you just can't use that part of this ability cause you traded the other thing. Or yes it alters, because you've altered the way they can be used.

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