Greater Bull Rush and Attacks of Opportunity

[Father_Beocca]

When I take the feat Greater Bull Rush (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-bull-rush-combat---fina l) and Bull Rush an opponent out of an ally's threatened square, do I have to push my opponent more than 5 feet (beat his CMD by 5) for the opponent to provoke an attack of opportunity for my ally? It seems unclear to me whether or not that would count as a 5-foot step for my opponent, thus avoiding the attack of opporunity. Let me illustrate:

P=Player (the one doing the Bull Rush with Greater Bull Rush feat)
A=Ally
O=Opponent
X=Empty square

a) Bull Rushing opponent 5 feet

XXX -> XXX
XAX -> XAO
XXO -> XXX
XXP -> XXP

Would this trigger an attack of opportunity from my ally? Or would I have to:

b) Bull Rushing opponent 10 feet (beating opponent's CMD by 5)

XXX -> XXO
XAX -> XAX
XXO -> XXX
XXP -> XXP

Does only this trigger the attack of opportunity from my ally?

I haven't found any sources on whether or not one can make a 5-foot step on someone else's turn, as the opponent would do in case a) for the attack of opportunity not to trigger. I think this also raises another question: is all 5-feet movement 5-foot steps, or is the 5-foot step a specific action that you can only do on your own turn?

Also, if case a) doesn't provoke AoOs, has the opponent spent 5 feet of his movement that round?

In addition, it would seem to me that if case a) doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, that the Greater Bull Rush feat is quite weak, as you would have to beat the opponent's CMD by 5 every time to get the attacks of opportunity off (especially considering that the player doing the Bull Rush does not get an AoO himself).

What do you think? Please link sources.

[Total Biscuit]

Moving 5 feet isn't the same as a 5-foot step. For example, if you use a move action to move 5 feet, that can still provoke AoOs. I can't remember the specific source to hand, but under the rules for hampered movement the PRD claims:

PRD wrote:

Move 5 Feet through Difficult Terrain

In some situations, your movement may be so hampered that you don't have sufficient speed even to move 5 feet (a single square). In such a case, you may spend a full-round action to move 5 feet (1 square) in any direction, even diagonally. Even though this looks like a 5-foot step, it's not, and thus it provokes attacks of opportunity normally.

- which implies that even if you move in a way that looks like a 5-foot step, it's only AoO-free if it specifically is a 5-foot step. Since being Bull-Rushed out of a threatened square isn't a 5-foot step (or a withdraw action), then 5 feet of movement would be enough to provoke the AoO with Greater Bull Rush.

As for taking a 5-foot step off-turn... huh. I always thought 5-foot steps were swift actions, but they're listed as 'no action', apparently. Still, I don't think you can take them off-turn, since only immediate actions are listed as usable off-turn, and 'no action' still isn't an immediate action.

EDIT: Derp. I am thick. 5-foot step rules are just further down the Combat rules page. See here.

[Pizza Lord]

First, I may not be able to give you links, but the answer is: No, it is not a 5-foot step. It does provoke an AoO. It happens because the target is leaving a threatened square, whether he moves 5 feet or not.

Hermannator wrote:

I haven't found any sources on whether or not one can make a 5-foot step on someone else's turn, as the opponent would do in case a) for the attack of opportunity not to trigger.

Technically it is possible to take a 5-foot step during another person's turn. There probably aren't many ways to do so, the most likely way would be to Ready an action to take a 5-foot step (and still also take a standard action) if another character does [something]. This is possible as long as you haven't made any movement on your turn before you readied the action (a move-action is fine, like standing up or drawing a weapon, actually moving is not), just like taking a normal 5-foot step.

Now, in the case you are making, the opponent clearly is not ready to make the 5-foot step, so that's not the case here. And if he did somehow decide to Ready an action that "If I get bullrushed, I 5-foot step away" then he'll either step aside before it happens or after it happens, depending on the phrasing even though typically Readied action interrupt what triggers them. It is possible for a Readied action to not be able to trigger until after its trigger occurs, like "If the door opens I attack whoever is on the other side." That can't actually interrupt the door opening and would have occur afterwards. You aren't asking about Readied actions however, so we'll stop there.

Quote:

I think this also raises another question: is all 5-feet movement 5-foot steps, or is the 5-foot step a specific action that you can only do on your own turn?

It is a specific action. You choose to do so. Again, there may be a way to take a 5-foot step when it isn't your turn, but such a situation would have its usage and capabilities spelled out.

You must choose to take it, since it's possible that you might end up with the ability to move again on your turn or some effect occurs that might give you the chance to move and generally if you've taken a 5-foot step you cannot move anymore during the round regardless of your speed. So even if you only move 5 feet, you do not have to declare it a 5-foot step. Most of the time you will and should, but perhaps you are trying to draw out and waste an enemy's AoO for the round on yourself so an ally might move past, for example.

Another example of not every 5 feet of movement being a 5-foot step would be if your movement was hampered greatly.

Additional Rules: Tactical Movement wrote:

In some situations, your movement may be so hampered that you don't have sufficient speed even to move 5 feet (1 square). In such a case, you may use a full-round action to move 5 feet (1 square) in any direction, even diagonally. Even though this looks like a 5-foot step, it's not, and thus it provokes attacks of opportunity normally. (You can't take advantage of this rule to move through impassable terrain or to move when all movement is prohibited to you.)

Again, not the greatest links I guess, but again, the answer to your question is that the forced movement from Greater Bullrush will provoke when your opponent leaves the threatened square. I mean, the wording for Greater Bullrush seems pretty straightforward as to whether the the movement does so or not.

Greater Bullrush wrote:

Whenever you bull rush an opponent, his movement provokes attacks of opportunity from all of your allies (but not you).

So regardless of whether he's capable of taking a 5-foot step or not, if you hit him with a Greater Bullrush and he moves, he provokes.

[Father_Beocca]

Thanks for the quick replies! So I guess that any movement that the opponent makes from being Bull Rushed with the Greater Bull Rush feat provokes attacks of opportunities from my allies, regardless of whether they only move 5 feet. So in my case a), my ally would get an attack on the opponent.

I've got one more case that I'd like to clear up, even though I'm not as unsure on this one:

P=Player (the one doing the Bull Rush with Greater Bull Rush feat)
A=Ally
O=Opponent
X=Empty square

c) Bull Rushing opponent 5 feet out of ally's threatened squares

XXX -> XXO
XXO -> XXX
XAP -> XAP
XXX -> XXX

Does the opponent provoke a melee attack of opportunity from my ally, even though he's now out of my ally's threatened squares?

[Pizza Lord]

Making an Attack of Opportunity wrote:

An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).

Leaving the threatened square is what provokes the AoO (because of Greater Bullrush), most of the time involuntary movement does not provoke, but there are situation like this one that exist. The AoO occurs and interrupts the movement, so yes, your ally will take their AoO and then the Bullrush will continue.

Note, that it is possible for your ally's AoO to somehow alter your bullrush (not very likely, but possible). For instance, if the AoO he chooses to take is to make his own Greater Bullrush attempt, the opponent will be pushed 'sideways' (in relation to the direction you were pushing) and you would actually get to take your own AoO against the foe before he is actually moved any squares from either bullrush. Regardless, he would still be pushed 5-feet (or more depending on your roll) in the direction of your bullrush, unless no longer possible (such as there being a solid obstacle blocking him now.)

Hermannator wrote:

Does the opponent provoke a melee attack of opportunity from my ally, even though he's now out of my ally's threatened squares?

Yes, because he has not left your ally's reach. The AoO occurs where and when it is triggered. This situation and question typically arises in a situation where someone trips another character and then the target tries to stand up, provoking an AoO. The AoO triggers before the actual movement or triggering action, so when the AoO comes, it's against a target who is at -4 to AC for being prone (if he survives the AoO, he completes his action and stands up). This also means that an AoO provoked by someone trying to stand up can't be used to trip them (since they are still prone) thus preventing cases of chain trips and such.

[Total Biscuit]

Quote:

Does the opponent provoke a melee attack of opportunity from my ally, even though he's now out of my ally's threatened squares?

Yes, he gets hit before he completes the movement that takes him out of range. In the Attacks of Opportunity rules, they have a diagram showing AoO examples; if you look at example #3, the sorcerer in the bottom-right, you can see that he provokes an AoO by moving away from the ogre, even though his movement ends outside of the ogre's reach.

I can't remember where, but I recall reading once that in terms of order of events, AoOs happen before the thing that provoked them. So if someone provokes an AoO by standing from prone, for example, you can't use an AoO to re-trip him, since he's still considered prone until after the attack. For threatened squares, they're still in the square they tried to leave until after you make your strike.

[Gilfalas]

'5 foot steps' are special free actions that a creature can do on it's own turn. Bull Rushing something 5 feet is not a 5 foot step, it is being moved by an outside force, outside your turn, a form of involuntary movement.

Anytime an opponent moves out of a threatened square, or is moved by someone using improved bull rush out of a threatened square, creatures threatening that opponent gain an AoO on that creature if they can do so (IE have not already used up their quota for that turn).

I am aware of no situations where a '5 foot step' is ever considered involuntary movement or vice versa.

[Father_Beocca]

Thanks a lot for all the helpful answers! I didn't even know that you could use a combat maneuver like Bull Rush when you get an attack of opportunity. This sure opens up for a lot of interesting gameplay.

I'm really looking forward to play my Bull Rush Fighter Dwarf now!

[Ascalaphus]

You normally can't use a bull rush during an attack of opportunity. During an AoO you get a free attack, and there are normally only three maneuvers that can be substituted for any attack (trip, disarm, sunder). There's probably a feat that allows bull rushing instead of an AoO though.

Also, involuntary movement normally doesn't provoke, because the rules say that an "enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you" - an enemy being moved is not taking those actions himself. Greater Bullrush provides the exception to that general principle.

[Pizza Lord]

Looking at the Combat section, it looks like Ascalaphus is right about Bullrushes not being valid for AoO's normally (must have been remembering 3.5.) It looks like you can substitute Disarm, Trip, or Sunder, as he says, but not a Bullrush or Grapple (I always remember being able to grab someone trying to move past, but again, that was back in 3.5)

I suppose an adequate substitute would be using a Trip maneuver to down a foe and then, when they try to stand up, Disarm them at basically a +4 since they're prone with your AoO (since you can't Trip them since they're technically still grounded.) When they try and pick up their weapon, they provoke an AoO and you trip them. This works well with Vicious Stomp or Greater Trip (which add attacks to trips or when opponents fall over.)

[Jeraa]

Pizza Lord wrote:

Looking at the Combat section, it looks like Ascalaphus is right about Bullrushes not being valid for AoO's normally (must have been remembering 3.5.) It looks like you can substitute Disarm, Trip, or Sunder, as he says, but not a Bullrush or Grapple (I always remember being able to grab someone trying to move past, but again, that was back in 3.5)

Nope. You couldn't bull rush with an attack of opportunity in 3.5 D&D either. It required a standard action, or could be performed as part of a charge. Same as in Pathfinder.

You are right about the grapple part though. It was something you could attempt as part of any attack action. It wasn't a standard action like in Pathfinder.

[Father_Beocca]

Alright, so I can't Bull Rush on an attack of opportunity. It did seem kind of strange if I could. Anyway, thanks to everyone for helping out!