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Its one of the seasonal issues really, like spring showers or late winter and the snow is all grey season.[set derail = true]
As a GM I would feel extremely uncomfortable with the idea of letting a player walk away from the table with a chronicle that doesn't have their PFS number and character number already written in.This is happening now. I had a whole topic on how GMs are not following the Guide because it is too much work to follow it.
[set derail = false]
LOL. Thanks for the laugh. Can't say I disagree.
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Ok, I deleted the long snarky post about this thread.
But... Please let's NOT increase the Paperwork more. Please.
Thank you.
There are times and places when rigid adherence to paperwork protocols is important and necessary.
PFS is not a serious enough environment that this is necessary, and the only thing that I've really personally seen it stop is players from showing up.
Ok, I deleted the long snarky post about this thread.
But... Please let's NOT increase the Paperwork more. Please.
Thank you.
There are already too many rules for PFS, that is why I only play PFS once a year at a convention.
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The problem has always been implementing a rule that applies equally to the entire community keeing in mind the thousands of boons we issue at GenCon and other big shows on down to the local con with fifteen table and just a few boons. It is relatively easy for smaller events to be required to complete the player's number (but not the character number) and then require some type of language added if/when it is transferred to another owner. Probably the simplest, cheapest solution. But, that is not feasible for an event like GenCon and with some of those boons being more special than "normal" (like the GenCon GM boon) it makes them even more valuable and likely to be handled in a way that goes against the spirit of the campaign.
This has been a topic of much discussion for a number of years and there just is not a simple solution that is consistent, inexpensive, and implementable across the entire campaign, otherwise it would already be in place.
Our best option is for the community to remain vigilant. If you see a questionable chronicle or trade, report it to your organizer, Venture-Officer, or Paizo, as applicable. For some, its a matter of education. They were just not aware it is considered bad form to sell a boon. We can encourage good behavior but cannot prevent bad. As the ol' adage goes, cheaters gonna cheat. Just like in "real" life, when someone breaks the law, we punish them. The same applies to PFS
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Online
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Indeed, we add that language to the base PDF before creating the individual boon sheets to give out. It is perfectly legal.
Also, for an example of Online and IRL events.
We had an Online event with 212 tables. There were 1364 total seats in those sessions (including GMs), there were 221 boons given out, if you combine player and GM boons. I did all of those boons myself (and online boons take, arguably, a little longer per boon than IRL boons) and it only added like 2 seconds extra per boon to tag the PFS number on there - I did not feel any extra effort by adding them.
Likewise in another IRL event where we had to manually write the entries out on boons for ~100 tables worth of player and GM boons, it went by even faster and I did not feel any extra pressure adding the PFS numbers to the sheets. (And I don't think I had a single person not know their PFS number.)
As someone who already does this, I can say it does not add any extra effort in reality.
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As someone who already does this, I can say it does not add any extra effort in reality.
If we implement a rule like that, it has to be consistent to be effective. How will it be feasible at GenCon where upwards of 8000+ boons are issued in less than four days, with the bulk going out during the one hour break between sessions manned by two staffers?
Two (or was it three?) years ago, we received the boons late and had to fill out the bottom on site. After only a few hours, my hand hurt so bad I could barely hold the pen. At least now, all we have to do is stamp them legal
You would be surprised how many players cannot remember their PFS# unless they read it off their records. What if they don't have them with them in line?
Certainly these are issues only the largest events would have, but again, we need to be consistent.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Mike Brock's post explicitly say selling boons is permitted?
Why are we attempting to create a whole 'nother layer of paper work to prevent something that isn't even against the rules to begin with?
If a player wants to sell a boon, let them. In the end, all it does is ensure that a rare/limited opportunity gets to a person that wants it, rather than languishing in the back of a binder for years on end.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Mike Brock's post explicitly say selling boons is permitted?
Why are we attempting to create a whole 'nother layer of paper work to prevent something that isn't even against the rules to begin with?
If a player wants to sell a boon, let them. In the end, all it does is ensure that a rare/limited opportunity gets to a person that wants it, rather than languishing in the back of a binder for years on end.
Mike Brock said:
It is heavily frowned upon to sell these boons.
At this time, there isn't much I can do about it
But, selling free boons doesn't sit well with me.
It is the reason I don't make these boons better than they currently are.
But, I would ask you to use some judgement and restraint in the matter as this kind of thing greatly disappoints me.
However he did also say:
I can't tell you no to sell them.
That's because Paizo legally can't. The US has something called “first sale doctrine” which means that once a tangible item is sold or given away the first time, the original copyright owner no longer has rights over the physical item. After that, the buyer can do whatever he or she wants with it - sell it again, trade it, whatever. The only way to truly prevent people from selling them (legally) would be to have everyone who receives a boon sign a Rental Agreement saying that the boon would be returned to Paizo when they were no longer using it for themselves. But that would prevent trading boons as well. Not to mention the paperwork nightmare!
So, yes, it is legal to sell a boon. However it is totally against the community spirit to do so. When you see something like this, bring it up. If the seller is determined to sell the item, there's nothing that can be done. But most simply don't realize that we want to keep the game as far from "Pay to Win" as possible.
Also note that the resale right applies only to the original physical item, not copies. The idea of putting the original owner's PFS number on the boon originated in earlier discussions about how to prevent photocopying of boons (which is illegal).
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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What irks me most about selling boons is that it puts a paltry physical price (in the case of the Aasimar boon - 15 dollars) on all the effort that I have put into GMing at a con. GMing at cons, especially physical cons, is hard work.
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- Spend hours drawing or grit my teeth and purchase flipmats. In either case, carry those mats.
- Get there. If my boyfriend isn't going, this means either begging for rides or paying through the nose for Uber. There is a family car in my household, but I cannot tie it up for hours on end at a convention.
- Often pay full price for the convention itself and/or hotel. Badge costs range from twenty-five dollars to one hundred and fifty locally. Some local cons will let you in on a free GM badge if you do nothing else. Most do not. Hotel costs... Meh. You all know what hotels cost.
- Haul a ton of stuff from a distant parking lot and then through multiple floors of a hotel with wonky elevators.
- Spend the weeks ahead prepping for multiple tables of random strangers.
- Been a personable, cheerful, friendly face for PFS on low sleep and poor food. As a vegetarian, it can be tough to get good quality fuel at certain locations.
- Increase my stress level. Dealing with convention unknowns and uncertainties makes GMing harder. Will my table fire? What do I do when there is an online signin for the convention that we cannot see, so we have no idea who is signed up for our tables? At one con, 14 people showed up for my Overflow Archives table who all believed that they had signed up. Keith and I had to figure out on the spot what to do. Fortunately, we got a kind soul to volunteer to run Quests, did a lottery, and went forward.
- Deal with crises that never happen when I'm GMing at my own venue. I offered to take over running the second part of an adventure for another GM, only to find out that the entire party had TPKed in part one. I had to talk them all back to my table on charisma alone. They didn't know my reputation as a GM. I said, "Oh, I know what a bummer this was, but hey... Let me make it up to you and show you a good time. You were signed up for this slot, and all the other slots are full. I have a bunch of pregens, and we all have nothing to lose. Come on, what do you say?" They had a good time, and everyone shook my hand afterwards.
- Lose the time for other Opportunities at that Convention. For gaming conventions, this may not be a big deal. I have fun GMing as well as playing. For non-gaming conventions, I lose out on parties, movie opportunities, interesting panels etc. Last year at Convergence, I barely had any time to quickly visit the rest of the con, because I spent so much time volunteering on the 22nd floor devoted to gaming.
- Do the PFS Salespitch at the beginning and the end. Make sure they know where to find local play. It helps that the Minnesota Lodge is ultra organized with tons of New Player folders that we've put together ourselves.
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What we do as volunteers is a gift. It's a gift of time, of effort, of fellowship. If there is an exchange of value, it's one that builds our community. What we have is a Gift Economy, where we pay forward to the next generation of gamers by helping out as GMs and convention organizers.
Gift economies breakdown when participants put an dollar price on the exchange. Selling boons means that some people might look at boons for sale on ebay and decide... Hey, cons are too much work. I'll just buy this. It gives a cash incentive for fraud, and for the selling of leftover boons by conventions.
I hope that this never becomes a wide spread practice.
Hmm
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GMing at cons, especially physical cons, is hard work.
You're right, GMing is hard work; GMing at cons even more so. Which is why it baffles me that people are so angry that a GM is allowed to choose their reward.
For some, a bit of cash is vastly preferable to access to a race, and (you've said it yourself) it's not like the GM in-question isn't earning that cash.
My time is worth far more than fifteen dollars. I don't mind donating it... I do mind the idea that it is worth so little converted to real world cash.
Then how much is enough? $50? $100? $500?
The seller has set the price based on what people are willing to pay. If you messaged them and offered to pay them a price more in line with what "your time" is worth, I'm sure they'd be amenable to that.
Gift economies breakdown when participants put an dollar price on the exchange. Selling boons means that some people might look at boons for sale on ebay and decide... Hey, cons are too much work. I'll just buy this.
No, Gift Economies break down when people become too focused on the rewards, and start to obsess over the prospect of someone maybe getting more than them (cough).
As for the second part, if someone is only willing to GM at a con because of the volunteer boon, I would rather leave the table empty than have that person GM. GMing is hard work, that requires serious dedication; I don't want to deal with people who are only interested in doing the minimum to get by and get their reward, and I especially don't want to inflict them on my players. I would much rather have those would-be GMs pay $15, get their "reward" off Ebay, and never darken my door again.
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if someone is only willing to GM at a con because of the volunteer boon, I would rather leave the table empty than have that person GM. GMing is hard work, that requires serious dedication; I don't want to deal with people who are only interested in doing the minimum to get by and get their reward, and I especially don't want to inflict them on my players. I would much rather have those would-be GMs pay $15, get their "reward" off Ebay, and never darken my door again.
I don't understand this at all.
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No. I mean I *am* one of those GMs.
What level of motivation is acceptable to you?
Do you inquire with every GM as to why they're running your game?
It's a little insulting to assume a given level of effort based on the type of reward.
Have you never GMed because you wanted a certain Chronicle applied to a specific character?
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Group 1: Someone DMing JUST for the cookie has a higher chance than normal of being a problem
Group 2: Someone Dming and not caring about the cookie has probably dmed a lot anyway.
Group 3: Between those two you have people that might be considering DMing , or might be considering DMing only 1 or 2 games, where the thought of a cookie pushes them over to dm or to dm another game or 2
If groups 1 and 3 didn't exist, cookies wouldn't exist as con support. But they do. So not only is the campaign okay with group 3, they want them badly enough that they're willing to risk group 1. The effect on your table of getting a 3 might increase your chances of getting a bad 1, but it also means that you don't need to join group 4 of "there was no dm we had to do the paint and take" or group 4.5 of " we had to do the paint and take because the dm has run 8 games straight and needs to be escorted to the mental ward"
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I don't want to deal with people who are only interested in doing the minimum to get by and get their reward.Nefreet, I'd suggest reading what I've written, before going off on a rant.
I'd also advise you to look at the actual context of the statement.
The problem was that you included a whole lot of other stuff in there.
It's a fact that most of us GM at cons because of the boon and attendance rewards. I mean, Hmm described the effort perfectly. If we didn't get something out of it, what else is there? Just because that's the reason doesn't mean that every GM doing so is going to scrape by with the bare minimum. That's what Nefreet and TOZ are taking offense to, as well as myself.
Don't assume. If you had a bad GM, then you had a bad GM. That doesn't mean that the ones with similar motivations are bad GM's as well.
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It's a fact that most of us GM at cons because of the boon and attendance rewards. I mean, Hmm described the effort perfectly. If we didn't get something out of it, what else is there? Just because that's the reason doesn't mean that every GM doing so is going to scrape by with the bare minimum. That's what Nefreet and TOZ are taking offense to, as well as myself.
But are you GMing solely because of the reward, or are there other reasons?
If, say, you could get the reward by paying $15 on Ebay, would you still GM?
If you answered yes to either of those questions, then my statement doesn't apply to you, and you're getting offended over nothing.
That's why it's important to both read a statement fully AND pay attention to the context; otherwise you're going to create slights where there are none.
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But are you GMing solely because of the reward, or are there other reasons?
If, say, you could get the reward by paying $15 on Ebay, would you still GM?
If you answered yes to either of those questions, then my statement doesn't apply to you, and you're getting offended over nothing.
Okay, so it applies to me.
Regardless of how much a GM's time is worth, it is pretty clear that the administration doesn't like the idea of people selling boons. They can't stop it, but they don't like it.
What they CAN do, is stop giving out boons entirely.
It's their campaign, so it's their perogative on what they do with it. It would be very sad, however, if they had to go to those extremes.
-j
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But are you GMing solely because of the reward, or are there other reasons?
What does it matter? Again, what level of motivation is acceptable to you?
The vast majority of the time I am GMing solely for a reward. Usually that reward is the Chronicle itself.
That doesn't mean I'm going to prep or GM any less than if I had other motivations.
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But are you GMing solely because of the reward, or are there other reasons?What does it matter? Again, what level of motivation is acceptable to you?
The vast majority of the time I am GMing solely for a reward. Usually that reward is the Chronicle itself.
That doesn't mean I'm going to prep or GM any less than if I had other motivations.
oh come on, you must have hit the "i have that chronicle on which character?" 2 stars ago...
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But are you GMing solely because of the reward, or are there other reasons?What does it matter? Again, what level of motivation is acceptable to you?
The vast majority of the time I am GMing solely for a reward. Usually that reward is the Chronicle itself.
That doesn't mean I'm going to prep or GM any less than if I had other motivations.
oh come on, you must have hit the "i have that chronicle on which character?" 2 stars ago...
Besides everything Ryzoken stated, I keep an online record.
I'm coming close to 300 tables GMed, and 9 characters retired, and I still have plenty I haven't played or GMed.
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As for the second part, if someone is only willing to GM at a con because of the volunteer boon, I would rather leave the table empty than have that person GM. GMing is hard work, that requires serious dedication; I don't want to deal with people who are only interested in doing the minimum to get by and get their reward, and I especially don't want to inflict them on my players. I would much rather have those would-be GMs pay $15, get their "reward" off Ebay, and never darken my door again.
This was semi-addressed in a subsequent post, but my own two cents American here.
In the course of the last year I have prepped to run five scenarios at conventions, of which two 'fired'.
In two of those cases, the local lodge running the convention had the rule that if a table did not fire, one did not get the volunteer boon.
So even though I volunteered to do a thing, and put in in excess of twenty hours of preparation for those two slots, there wasn't even a 'reward' for the effort.
For one of the slots that did fire, it was the multi-table Special at GenCon last year. On *maps alone* the financial outlay was in excess of 120$ USD. The other set of maps I had to have custom-printed at Staples (thankfully with a Black Friday Discount) ran 50$ USD.
When we discourage individuals willing to step up to GM, even small bites, even a small showing for this concern of 'mercenary traits', we can forget to see the 'backstory' of a thing.
With the above numbers, I was darn lucky enough to have the money and the contacts to get the maps.
Imagine, however, that if in a moment of perhaps misguided idealism I'd managed to put myself into dire financial straits?
Now does it seem as far-fetched that someone might seek to liquidate things rather than beg around for loans?
And why would we discourage someone who has devoted THAT much to the campaign already?
EDIT: tl, dr:
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That doesn't mean I'm going to prep or GM any less than if I had other motivations.Then
I don't want to deal with people who are only interested in doing the minimum to get by and get their reward.Doesn't apply to you.
Seriously, the tiniest bit of reading comprehension would go a long way.
There have been plenty of times when my posts have been misconstrued, so I totally understand when intent isn't conveyed accurately via text.
But I wasn't the only one that interpreted your other statements in that fashion, so perhaps reevaluate how you put forth your message in the future?
Reading comprehension is exactly why we took issue with your post.
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That doesn't mean I'm going to prep or GM any less than if I had other motivations.Then
I don't want to deal with people who are only interested in doing the minimum to get by and get their reward.Doesn't apply to you.
Seriously, the tiniest bit of reading comprehension would go a long way.
Insulting the people who have taken offense to what you've written about their perceived intentions (whom I am in the company of) isn't particularly helpful.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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We all feel misunderstood from time to time on the boards. Text on the internet is a difficult communication medium, especially when emotions get engaged.
How about we all agree on this? The cookie is a powerful motivator. We've all had experience with rotten GMs at conventions. We've also all had experiences with amazing GMs at conventions. But many of those experiences wouldn't happen at all if the cookies weren't there.
I too, am motivated by the cookie. Yes, I'm also motivated by wanting to help out, but cookies are tasty.
Hugs to all and happy New Year.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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In the course of the last year I have prepped to run five scenarios at conventions, of which two 'fired'.
In two of those cases, the local lodge running the convention had the rule that if a table did not fire, one did not get the volunteer boon.
So even though I volunteered to do a thing, and put in in excess of twenty hours of preparation for those two slots, there wasn't even a 'reward' for the effort.
I have long believed that if someone takes the time to prep as a GM, they should get that cookie even if the table doesn't fire. My prep time for games far exceeds the time I actually spend GMing at the table. Don't penalize your volunteers. It makes them less likely to volunteer next time.
I just have to be that guy and point out that in scenario [redacted] cookies can turn you evil. And when I GM'd that scenario I decided it was necessary to bring a tray of cookies as props.
Oh, very nice. Though knowing my willpower, I might have eaten a prop before I even knew what it was. What do evil cookies look like? I'm imagining gingerbread men with conniving faces now.
Hmm
We have Ninjabread cookie cutters. :-)
For the boons, charity auctions or sales only. A receipt with a picture of the child or animal helped can be stapled to the boon.
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For the boons, charity auctions or sales only. A receipt with a picture of the child or animal helped can be stapled to the boon.
Druids local 704 reminds you to parse that as (picture of child) or (picture of animal) rather than the other way as we do not condone stapling animals to anything.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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Druids local 704 reminds you to parse that as (picture of child) or (picture of animal) rather than the other way as we don not condone stapling animals to anything.
As a librarian, I must note that it is harder to file a charity boon that has been stapled to a cat.
Hmm
