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Can a magus with the wand wielder arcana use wands with spells that are not on his spell list to do spell combat?
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No.
Wand Wielder (Su): The magus can activate a wand or staff in place of casting a spell when using spell combat.
That piece of text only replace the "cast a spell" from the spell combat ability, not other parts of the text, so we get this:
Spell Combat (Ex): As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can alsocast any spelluse a wand from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty).
Spell combat still require a spell from the magus spell list.
Thanks Diego. That's pretty much what I thought, but I had heard some comments suggesting otherwise recently.
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Given that wand wielder does not state any restriction on the wand/staff effects which can be activated this way I'd allow it.
You cannot simply parse out 'activate a wand or staff' from Wand Wielder to replace 'cast any spell' in the Spell Combat description... there is no 'formal definition' or 'transitive property' of text to validate such cutting and pasting... and even if there WERE it would be just as (if not MORE) 'valid' to replace 'cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time or 1 standard action';
Spell Combat (Ex): As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a -2 penalty and can alsocast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard actionactivate a wand or staff (any attack roll made as part of thisspellactivation also takes this penalty).
Can a magus with the wand wielder arcana use wands with spells that are not on his spell list to do spell combat?
Since you can't normally cast wand spells that are not on your class list anyway, why would you think that this archetype ALONE would change anything.
Even UMD does not change the restriction that you can ONLY use spell combat with spells from the magus class list. Or extensions you've made to that list with mechanics such as spell-blending.
Since you can't normally cast wand spells that are not on your class list anyway, why would you think that this archetype ALONE would change anything.
Even UMD does not change the restriction that you can ONLY use spell combat with spells from the magus class list. Or extensions you've made to that list with mechanics such as spell-blending.
I generally agree with you, Drahliana. That's the way I've always played my wand wielder magus. But is the past couple weeks I've heard a few people imply or outright state that a wand wielder can use any wand. The reasonings I've heard are more or less like CBDunkerson's. I was wondering if this was the consensus or just a few outliers.
So far it looks like a 50/50 split.
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Given that wand wielder does not state any restriction on the wand/staff effects which can be activated this way I'd allow it.
You cannot simply parse out 'activate a wand or staff' from Wand Wielder to replace 'cast any spell' in the Spell Combat description... there is no 'formal definition' or 'transitive property' of text to validate such cutting and pasting... and even if there WERE it would be just as (if not MORE) 'valid' to replace 'cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time or 1 standard action';
Spell Combat (Ex): As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a -2 penalty and can alsocast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard actionactivate a wand or staff (any attack roll made as part of thisspellactivation also takes this penalty).
Wand wielder say that can use the wand in place of in place of casting a spell, it don't lift any other limitation from spell combat. When something isn't specified the most conservative interpretation is the best approach.
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That's the way I've always played my wand wielder magus. But is the past couple weeks I've heard a few people imply or outright state that a wand wielder can use any wand. The reasonings I've heard are more or less like CBDunkerson's. I was wondering if this was the consensus or just a few outliers.
So far it looks like a 50/50 split.
Conversely, I've always seen it as any effect from the wand/staff works. Not exactly a new position on these messageboards; Dec 2010 & Jan 2011.
Given that wand wielder does not state any restriction on the wand/staff effects which can be activated this way I'd allow it.
Please show the text where the arcana removes the general restrictions regarding spell combat described in the spell combat mechanic itself.
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Please show the text where the arcana removes the general restrictions regarding spell combat described in the spell combat mechanic itself.
I didn't say that the "general restrictions" are removed (though, as it happens, I believe some, like the free hand requirement, clearly must be)... just that you generate an effect from a wand or staff in place of casting a spell, and that's verbatim from the ability;
"Wand Wielder (Su): The magus can activate a wand or staff in place of casting a spell when using spell combat."
You aren't casting a spell. The rules on what spells you can cast with spell combat thus do not apply. Instead, you are activating a wand or staff effect... with no restrictions stated on what kinds of such effects you can use.
No.
Wand Wielder (Su): The magus can activate a wand or staff in place of casting a spell when using spell combat.That piece of text only replace the "cast a spell" from the spell combat ability, not other parts of the text, so we get this:
Spell combat still require a spell from the magus spell list.
Spell Combat (Ex): As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can alsocast any spelluse a wand from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty).
This seems like the argument people use to say wand wielder doesn't work:
To use this ability, the magus MUST HAVE ONE HAND FREE (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components)
Apparently this means that even with Wand Wielder, if you have a wand in 1 hand & a weapon in the other you can't use spell combat.
If you've been playing wand wielder that way then no, you can't use wands of spells that aren't on the Magus spell-list. That way at least you're using consistent logic.
I however think that's rubbish, and I feel the same way about this topic:
Benefit: The magus can activate a wand OR STAFF in place of casting a spell when using spell combat.
The STAFF OF RIGOR, the STAFF OF RADIANCE, the STAFF OF SHRIEKING, the STAFF OF THE MASTER, the MUSICAL STAFF, the STAFF OF STEALTH, the STAFF OF CURSES, the STAFF OF DARK FLAME, the STAFF OF CACKLING WRATH & the STAFF OF PERFORMANCE all contain a mix of magus spells and non-magus spells with a casting time of 1 standard action (I stopped at GREATER MAGIC STAVES because my list was getting too long).
There are some archetypes (eg: HEXCRAFTER) that would expand my list, but it's big enough as it is.
If you can't cast spells that aren't not the magus list, does this mean that you can cast some, but not all of the spells on these staves using spell combat?
Whichever way you rule on this is the way I'd rule for wands. Personally I think the arcana does let you use cross-class wands, but it's up to you to decide how you want to use it.
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Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand's spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. Failing the roll does not expend a charge.
If you use a wand with a spell not on your list, you'll need to UMD it. If you UMD it, it counts as iff it is a spell on your class list. I personally don't see a problem with combining Wand Wielder with Spell Combat.
Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand's spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. Failing the roll does not expend a charge.If you use a wand with a spell not on your list, you'll need to UMD it. If you UMD it, it counts as iff it is a spell on your class list. I personally don't see a problem with combining Wand Wielder with Spell Combat.
Man I really wish I'd found that little gem instead of making my stupidly long list of links =P
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Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand's spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. Failing the roll does not expend a charge.If you use a wand with a spell not on your list, you'll need to UMD it. If you UMD it, it counts as iff it is a spell on your class list. I personally don't see a problem with combining Wand Wielder with Spell Combat.
Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand's spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. Failing the roll does not expend a charge.
There is a big difference between adding a spell to your spell list, even for a moment, and using something as if the spell in it was on your spell list. UMD allow you to use a wand as if the spell was in your spell list, it don't add it to your spell list for any other purpose.
Kaouse, I think you just nailed it. I was very dubious to this interpretation, but that appears to be a slam dunk.
Now, I don't think I would argue with a GM that still wanted to disallow it after I laid out my reasoning, but after reading Kaouse's post, I'm pretty sure I would allow it at my tables.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Kaouse, I think you just nailed it. I was very dubious to this interpretation, but that appears to be a slam dunk.
Still not a slam dunk.
Pick one, AKA Table Variance.
Until there is an official answer, there will be no consensus on how this works. Or at least there should be no consensus, as we don't have enough information to know.
Spell Combat (Ex): As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can alsocast any spelluse a wand from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty).
Spell Combat (Ex): As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a -2 penalty and can alsocast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard actionactivate a wand or staff (any attack roll made as part of thisspellactivation also takes this penalty).
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Does anyone saying 'no' have any particular reason why using a command word for a wand with a magus spell is any different when it comes to spell combat compared to using a command word for a wand with a non-magus spell?
How would one interfere with spell combat, but not the other?
Casting magic missile memorized as a magus work with spell combat, while using magic missile memorized as a wizard don't.
Same spell, but using a different slot to memorize it make it unsuitable.So spell combat isn't very flexible, apparently. It seem reasonable to keep it limited even when using a wand.
Adding 1 or 2 wizard spells to your list of spells require 1 arcana, it seem unreasonable to allow you to add any spell that can be stored in a staff or wand to your repertoire at the same cost.
Casting magic missile memorized as a magus work with spell combat, while using magic missile memorized as a wizard don't.
Same spell, but using a different slot to memorize it make it unsuitable.
It was my understanding that there where only three types of casting spells (Arcane, Divine, and Psychic).
Can you please tell me where it says that Arcane spells (or Divine, Psychic), are different spells because of who casts it.
Adding 1 or 2 wizard spells to your list of spells require 1 arcana, it seem unreasonable to allow you to add any spell that can be stored in a staff or wand to your repertoire at the same cost.
Wands allow every character in the game the ability to add every spell in the game of fourth level or lower to their repertoire. So that part of the argument seems unconvincing.
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Just to gather all the bits together:
Spell Combat
As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty)
Wand Weilder Arcana
The magus can activate a wand or staff in place of casting a spell when using spell combat.
Use Magic Device
Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand's spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. Failing the roll does not expend a charge
And for those concerned adding UMD into the mix:
Action
None. The Use Magic Device check is made as part of the action (if any) required to activate the magic item.
I came in skeptical, but this collection of rule points makes it pretty clear unless I'm missing something.
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Does anyone saying 'no' have any particular reason why using a command word for a wand with a magus spell is any different when it comes to spell combat compared to using a command word for a wand with a non-magus spell?
How would one interfere with spell combat, but not the other?
Before it was clarified that "on the magus spell list" meant cast from a magus slot, people multi classed to get more spell slots to use for spell combat.
Adding 1 or 2 wizard spells to your list of spells require 1 arcana, it seem unreasonable to allow you to add any spell that can be stored in a staff or wand to your repertoire at the same cost.Wands allow every character in the game the ability to add every spell in the game of fourth level or lower to their repertoire. So that part of the argument seems unconvincing.
No it doesn't. Wands don't add spells to your class list. You might be able to momentarily access the power of a wand using UMD, but that's not nearly the same.
Casting magic missile memorized as a magus work with spell combat, while using magic missile memorized as a wizard don't.
Same spell, but using a different slot to memorize it make it unsuitable.It was my understanding that there where only three types of casting spells (Arcane, Divine, and Psychic).
Can you please tell me where it says that Arcane spells (or Divine, Psychic), are different spells because of who casts it.
What Diego Rossi is saying is that if you have a multiclass magus/wizard who has magic missile prepared in both a magus spell-slot and a wizard spell-slot he can cast magic missile as part of spell combat using the magus spell-slot but not with the wizard spell slot. There is a feat (BROAD STUDY) that lets you use spell combat with spells prepared on another list, but that has some restrictions (Must be Magus 6, which means you won't be able to cast higher than level 7 spells even if you go "Magus 6/Wizard 14").
Essentially Wand Wielder would allow you to spell combat with every spell below level 4 via wands, & a huge array of spells up to level 9 via staves (every spell if you allow crafting).This is an extremely powerful ability.
I understand his point of view, I just don't agree with it.
The most powerful thing about this is casting those level 9 spells, which any character with UMD can do.
Wand Wielder still costs you an arcana and you cannot use Spellstrike with a wand or staff, even if it IS on the magus spell list, so the opportunity cost is still there.
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What Diego Rossi is saying is that if you have a multiclass magus/wizard who has magic missile prepared in both a magus spell-slot and a wizard spell-slot he can cast magic missile as part of spell combat using the magus spell-slot but not with the wizard spell slot.
Well, if the 'must use a Magus spell slot' requirement applied then Wand Wielder wouldn't do anything... because those wand/staff effects are never coming from a Magus spell slot. They're coming from the wand/staff. It seems unlikely that Paizo intended the option to do nothing... ergo I conclude that this requirement does not apply to Wand Wielder.
There is a feat (BROAD STUDY) that lets you use spell combat with spells prepared on another list, but that has some restrictions (Must be Magus 6, which means you won't be able to cast higher than level 7 spells even if you go "Magus 6/Wizard 14").
Esoteric Training from Inner Sea Magic would allow you to boost that to Magus 7/Wizard 17 for spellcasting, and thus 9th level spells, but it likely isn't allowed at most tables.
In any case, for the cost of a single arcana, Broad Study potentially allows spell combat AND spellstrike with a vast array of additional spells. Thus, it does not seem unreasonable to me that Wand Wielder could do the same for spell combat alone.
Essentially Wand Wielder would allow you to spell combat with every spell below level 4 via wands, & a huge array of spells up to level 9 via staves (every spell if you allow crafting).
Sure... IF you spend the money to have items for every spell in the game and some way to carry them around with you in some easily accessible manner. Plus the UMD requirement.
Of course, a Rogue with no spellcasting ability at all could get access to all those spells the same way... just not spell combat with them.
I understand his point of view, I just don't agree with it.
Ditto.
I just wanted to give this thread a kick, to see if there are any new/additional thoughts on the discussion.
I very much enjoy my wand wielder magus and am thinking about making another. A ruling on cross casting with wand wielder would significantly impact how I built the new character.
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Casting magic missile memorized as a magus work with spell combat, while using magic missile memorized as a wizard don't.
Same spell, but using a different slot to memorize it make it unsuitable.It was my understanding that there where only three types of casting spells (Arcane, Divine, and Psychic).
Can you please tell me where it says that Arcane spells (or Divine, Psychic), are different spells because of who casts it.
Bit late with the reply, but:
Magus, Spell Combat: What spells can I cast when using spell combat?
The relevant text of the ability is:
"As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty)."
The spell you cast when using spell combat has to be a magus spell you know, and it must be a magus spell prepared with one of your magus spell slots.
(Other magus abilities may modify what spells can be used with spell combat. For example, the broad study magus arcana explicitly states the magus can use spell combat to cast spells from the selected non-magus spellcasting class.)
posted November 2013 | back to top
That work for plenty of spellcasting options in different classes. Often the effect apply to the spell memorized/cast with slots of specific classes, not to all spells.
Use Magic Device
Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand's spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. Failing the roll does not expend a charge
I was undecided until I read this quote.
Comes down to the decision on whether or not the ability intended to exempt you from the magus spell combat requirement that it come from magic spells or not. If they intended it to be any spell they could have said "activate a wand or staff of a spell from any spell list".
They could say a lot of things, but they don't.
A wand wielder is not casting a spell, he is activating a wand and, while activating that wand, the spell is counted as being on his class spell list.
Broad study doesn't seem to be a problem: "The magus can use his spellstrike and spell combat abilities while casting or using spells from the spell list of that class."
But I think using a wand outside of magus, by qualifying as a different class, is still questionable. But being able to cast a wand without UMD doesn't mean you can't still use UMD to cast the spell as a different class.
Since you can't normally cast wand spells that are not on your class list anyway, why would you think that this archetype ALONE would change anything.
Even UMD does not change the restriction that you can ONLY use spell combat with spells from the magus class list. Or extensions you've made to that list with mechanics such as spell-blending.
I generally agree with you, Drahliana. That's the way I've always played my wand wielder magus. But is the past couple weeks I've heard a few people imply or outright state that a wand wielder can use any wand. The reasonings I've heard are more or less like CBDunkerson's. I was wondering if this was the consensus or just a few outliers.
So far it looks like a 50/50 split.
Oh, this is a discussion about Use Magic Device. I had not understood that about the original post.
My strict ruling would be that activating a wand as allowed by Wand Wielder means activating a wand by the spell trigger method. It does not mean make a skill check with Use Magic Device to be able to activate the wand. I view activating a wand and using a skill as two separate kinds of actions, even if a successful skill check with UMD will activate a wand as a result.
However, I am a lenient GM. If it were important to the character design to use a non-magus wand during Spell Combat, then I would create a houserule that allows it, perhaps with a -4 penalty to the skill check.
From UMD:
Action: None. The Use Magic Device check is made as part of the action (if any) required to activate the magic item.
So, activating the wand is still activating a wand.
From UMD:Action: None. The Use Magic Device check is made as part of the action (if any) required to activate the magic item.So, activating the wand is still activating a wand.
I had not realized that. I vizualized UMD as a deliberate action, like Disable Device to pick a lock, rather than seeing how well an action was accomplished, like Acrobatics to make a jump. UMD in my party has been for pre-combat buffs and post-combat healing, so the difference never came up.
Thanks for the clarification.
That means that UMD to activate a wand won't provoke an attack of opportunity, either. That is important for a magus.
Has anyone pointed out that any wands or staves that require more than a standard action shouldn't be usable for this?
Has anyone pointed out that any wands or staves that require more than a standard action shouldn't be usable for this?
It was never in contention.
I was undecided until I read this quote.Use Magic Device
Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand's spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. Failing the roll does not expend a charge
Yeah, I'm finding that pretty persuasive.
I think I'm going to go with this unless a GM rules against it.