For a while I've been trying to find a good TWF build, really caring more about how cool I look. I think I might have an idea though. I just got Inner Sea World Guide (Loving it) and the Red Mantis Assassin kind've inspired me a bit.
Unchained Rogue (Knifemaster) 2/Fighter (Lorewarden) 2/Unchained Rogue (Knifemaster) X
So Half-Elf for free EWP Wakizashi, and feats would look like this.
1- Weapon Finesse (Bonus), Iron Will
2- ? (If I decide later spending a rogue talent on a feat is worth it)
3- Two-Weapon Fighting, Combat Reflexes
4- Combat Expertise (Bonus), Improved Trip
5- Two-Weapon Feint
So far, how does this look? The idea is the TWFer will try to flank as much as possible, if enemies try to escape they'll be tripped, meaning they can't. If there are no flank mates than Two-Weapon Feint could help pull it off. Iron Will is just there because multiclassing tends to lead towards bad will saves. If I think of something more worthwhile though I might pick it up. I thought about Improved Critical, but I don't think I'd really get enough attacks to make that a good priority, so I might go for Sickles or something for trip bonuses.
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Wakizashis are not knives for knife master. you would be better off with daggers, or barring that kukris. Daggers are the best option though. You don't have to go through hoops for proficency, you can take river rat for +1 damage, and you can take deific obedience Pharasma for +2 sacred to hit, offsetting the TWF penalty.
This. Plus they're easy to hide, can be carried in spring-loaded wrist sheathes and -- in a pinch -- can be thrown. Not to mention that, for fluff purposes, the rather generic term "dagger" is broad enough to include all manner or shorter edged weaponry -- a nice plus if you're largely concerned with style, which is of course the most important stat.
Good point. I'm just gonna self check my optimization though to check if this is good.
Dual Wielding Daggers, sample Level 5.
1d4 damage a piece, 1d8 sneak attack each.
If I get to flank someone I'll deal 2d4 + 2d8 damage, which makes for 14 damage on average.
Using Two-Weapon Feint, I'll deal 1d4 + 1d8 damage, which makes for 7 damage on average.
This is identical to just picking up improved feint, however I'm not saving any feats there, so this build is still viable! So far, so still strong.
So using Daggers and picking up those traits, increases accuracy and damage, boosting the first to 18 damage, and the second to 11. I like the damage, so now accuracy.
Attack Bonus:
3 (BAB) + 3 or 4 (Dex) + 2 (Trait) - 2 (TWF) -- All disregarding flank/prone/flatfooted AC, which makes me pretty happy with that too.
I was worried for a moment, I thought it would be an impractical build. It probably could be better but I'm satisfied with the TWF.
I'll stick with Half-Elf for Dual Minded, so do you guys think I should keep Iron Will or get something else? I like Weapon Focus but there is the BAB requirement.
Oh just checked. Deific Obedience is a feat, not a trait. I don't think I could make room for it and I'd like my skill ranks elsewhere. Although TWF is easily offsetted by prone opponents or flanking.
If your objective is to be a whirling engine of death with two weapons, you could always just cross 3 levels of Unchained Rogue with a full-on melee class. If you're wielding two weapons with dex-to-damage and using things like dex-Rage or Fighter feats/training, you certainly don't need to be trying to sneak around flanks to do serious damage.
There's also the option of going Eldritch Scoundrel/ Inspired Blade Swashbuckler with dual Effortless Lace rapiers, which gets everything from Opportune Parry and Riposte to Ninja Tricks to some Wizard spells.
Even an Inspired Blade 1/ Strength Patron Witch 5/ Eldritch Knight can do some serious damage with two blades, Divine Favor and Arcane Strike, and they've got a ton of interesting abilities going on on the side.
I don't want this to be useless, but I am fine for it not being the best it can be. I mean, TWF isn't exactly the best option always.
I'd rather stick with Rogue for the skill ranks and sneak attack. Even if I run into creatures immune to sneak attack, I can still provide flanking and tripping to help out.
It's true that Eldritch Scoundrel archetype loses some skills and sneak but... getting to be a rogue/ninja/wizard in one combined Rogue archetype is just really awesome. Ninja Vanishing Trick fueled by level 1 spell slots is both incredibly useful and, well, ninja. And then you can pick up things like Mirror Image and Heroism, or for that matter, Sense Vitals...
If you're going with multiclass Rogue (or a Rogue archetype that gives up some sneak), Accomplished Sneak Attacker helps.
I don't want this to be useless, but I am fine for it not being the best it can be. I mean, TWF isn't exactly the best option always.
I'd rather stick with Rogue for the skill ranks and sneak attack. Even if I run into creatures immune to sneak attack, I can still provide flanking and tripping to help out.
Eh,overall I would have recommended slayer but your call. I take it you are not interested in taking a few more fighter levels for the CMB/CMD bonus and weapon training?
Eh,overall I would have recommended slayer but your call. I take it you are not interested in taking a few more fighter levels for the CMB/CMD bonus and weapon training?I don't want this to be useless, but I am fine for it not being the best it can be. I mean, TWF isn't exactly the best option always.
I'd rather stick with Rogue for the skill ranks and sneak attack. Even if I run into creatures immune to sneak attack, I can still provide flanking and tripping to help out.
Maybe a when I get the next sneak attack die, that is certainly useful.
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The build looks fine, but I would take at least 3 levels of Unchained Rogue first (preferably 4), before multiclassing away. At level 3 the rogue not only gets an extra sneak attack die, but also Dex to damage with one finessable weapon. That is damage output right there. At level 4 you get Debilitating Injury, which also allows you to hamper you opponent (No 5ft steps is nice for your build).
I would also try to get Two-Weapon Feint up earlier. Being self sufficient to get your sneak is always a plus. Maybe 1. Weapon Finesse (Bonus), Two-Weapon Fighting - 2. Combat Trick: Combat Expertise - 3. Two-Weapon Feint. If you then get Combat Expertise through the Lore Warden, you can retrain the Combat Trick into something else (Weapon Training, a Ninja Trick, something like that). You also do not need to invest in Charisma that much if you use either of the Clever Wordplay or Cunning Liar traits.
The Knifemaster archetype can be combined with the Scout. Getting sneak on a charge is nice, and at Rogue 8 you get sneak if you move 10ft first. You do give up Uncanny Dodge. I do not know how you feel about that, so I leave that up to you.
I myself made a Tengu rogue/fighter/brawler multiclass with TWF in PFS. Different approach, going sword and board and using Shield-Trained to make a heavy shield a simple/light weapon, and thus finessable. With Press to the Wall and the Scout abilities, I was more a less self sufficient when it came to getting Sneak Attack, while also being armored enough to be a reliable frontliner.
Str 13
Dex 20 (16+2, +1 at lvl 4 and 8)
Con 16 (16-2, +2 belt)
Int 8
Wis 15 (13+2)
Cha 7
AC 33 (10 + 9 Armor + 5 Shield + 5 Dex + 1 Natural + 2 Deflection + 1 Insight). Touch 18 and Flatfooted 28
Fortitude 12, Reflex 13, Will 7
Lvl 1 - Rogue 1: Sneak Attack 1d6, Magical Expertise, Finesse Training (Weapon Finesse), Weapon Focus (Estoc)
Lvl 2 - Rogue 2: Evasion, Rogue Talent: Combat Trick: Step Up
Lvl 3 - Rogue 3: Sneak Attack 2d6, Tiger Trance, Finesse Training (Dex to damage Estoc), Two-Weapon Fighting
Lvl 4 - Rogue 4: Scout's Charge, Debilitating Injury, Signature Wand
Lvl 5 - Fighter 1: Improved Shield Bash, Press to the Wall
Lvl 6 - Brawler 1: Sneak Attack 3d6, Unarmed Strike (1d6), Brawler's Cunning, Martial Training (Improved Unarmed Strike)
Lvl 7 - Fighter 2: Tactician: Overwhelm, Shield Snag, Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Lvl 8 - Rogue 5: Sneak Attack 4d6, Rogue's Edge (Disable Device)
Lvl 9 - Rogue 6: Dragon Trance, Wand Adept, Rogue Talent: Weapon Training (Spiked Heavy Shield), Following Step
Lvl 10 - Rogue 7: Sneak Attack 5d6
Lvl 11 - Rogue 8: Skirmisher, Slow Reactions, Step up and Strike
Traits: Indomitable Faith (+1 Will) and Shield Trained (shields are light/simple weapons)
Notable Gear at lvl 11 (PFS): +1 Adamantine Estoc, +1/+3 Spiked Darkwood Heavy Shield, +3 Mithral Agile Breastplate, Ring of Protection +2, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Dusty Rose Prism, Clear Spindle, Cloak of Resistence +2, Belt of Con +2, Composite Short Bow, Handy Haversack
A couple of other possible dip options: Weapon Master 3, where Weapon Training and Gloves of Dueling will grant all strikes including tripping a +3 attack and damage instead of Lore Warden granting +2 to only CMB, and Urban Barbarian/Bloodrager with Extra Rage and Furious weapons to add +3's to all strikes/trips. These options - particularly the Rage one - aren't nearly as feat-efficient, but they add quite a bit of punch to your combat ability.