Hey guys, so we're in the midst of converting previously released 3.5 formatted Paizo monsters over on d20pfsrd.com and I had a question.
Proper Names are considered Product Identity and as such are not open content per the OGL.
How does this affect unique monsters/creatures, such as:
- Ghartok, the Carrion King
- Madfang the Holy Ascensioner
- Sunlord Thalachos
I can see how a "Blast Shadow" would be open content because it does not have a "Proper Name" but creatures such as "Sunlord Thalachos" may be product identity and therefore not open content. I want to make sure we do not include anything that is not open and I can see how they would be considered product identity. After double-checking with d20srd.org, I do not see any creatures there that are unique or named either. I suppose at this point I am inclined to conclude they are not open until I hear otherwise and I will remove them from the site to be safe.
--John
Can you operate under the Community Use Policy? That should let you reference those characters.
I was already making every effort to remain in compliance with the Community Use Policy but I see now that I may have misunderstood something.
Each printed product Paizo releases includes the OGL statement at the bottom of the Credits page. I believe now that I was basically adhering to either the OGL or the Community Use License, whichever was more strict, which in virtually all cases would be the OGL, which, in effect nullifies the benefits of the Pathfinder Community Use License.
It appears clear now that by following the Community Use Policy in these cases I would be allowed to
"...descriptively reference trademarks, proper names (characters, deities, artifacts, places, etc.), locations and characters..."
However, now comes in the question of, what does "Descriptively Reference" mean? In the context of a monster conversion, I would be referencing the creature (or NPC's) name, and then followed by all necessary mechanics, but omitting any and all flavor text and art.
So now I am thinking its ok to convert a unique, named monster or NPC, as long as the flavor text and art is not included.
But this now generates a somewhat more philosophical question.
Is it "right" to do so? What I mean is that I want to support Paizo and their efforts and I think it might be better to only convert non-unique and non-named NPC's and monsters, ie, "a Shadow Ogre", as opposed to "Bob, the Ruler of Bigtown". This would make it so that if people want that level of flavor they have to buy the Paizo books.
I dunno, am I making sense?
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I was already making every effort to remain in compliance with the Community Use Policy but I see now that I may have misunderstood something.Each printed product Paizo releases includes the OGL statement at the bottom of the Credits page. I believe now that I was basically adhering to either the OGL or the Community Use License, whichever was more strict, which in virtually all cases would be the OGL, which, in effect nullifies the benefits of the Pathfinder Community Use License.
It appears clear now that by following the Community Use Policy in these cases I would be allowed to
"...descriptively reference trademarks, proper names (characters, deities, artifacts, places, etc.), locations and characters..."
However, now comes in the question of, what does "Descriptively Reference" mean? In the context of a monster conversion, I would be referencing the creature (or NPC's) name, and then followed by all necessary mechanics, but omitting any and all flavor text and art.
So now I am thinking its ok to convert a unique, named monster or NPC, as long as the flavor text and art is not included.
But this now generates a somewhat more philosophical question.
Is it "right" to do so? What I mean is that I want to support Paizo and their efforts and I think it might be better to only convert non-unique and non-named NPC's and monsters, ie, "a Shadow Ogre", as opposed to "Bob, the Ruler of Bigtown". This would make it so that if people want that level of flavor they have to buy the Paizo books.
I dunno, am I making sense?
Mostly. 8^)
With the understanding that I'm not a lawyer (or Paizo representative) and can't speak authoritatively, I think it would be fine to use the names, as long as you're not including the actual text of their descriptions, stories, etc. If nothing else, it seems to me like that is within the spirit of the Community Use Policy. Otherwise, what use is it to "descriptively reference" something?
Hopefully, someone in the Paizo adminisphere can chime in and clear things up.
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I had asked a somewhat similar question before. I am writing an adventure under the Community Use License and the Pathfinder Compatible License.
What I had asked is that since I can use proper names and such could I go as far as generating stat blocks. The answer was a resounding yes.
If you operate under both licenses you can use their proper names and statblocks with no problem. The details in the description shouldn't be used unless you rewrite it and don't copy their material, but honestly that is a pain to do when there is so much work to be done :)
I am absolutely amazed by how open Paizo has been and how much they embrace the community.
Methinks, Paizo hath no opinion? 'Tis disappointing I say!
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Methinks, Paizo hath no opinion? 'Tis disappointing I say!
:|
This thread started on a holiday weekend. I've forwarded it to Vic, who tends to handle these sorts of questions.
Thanks Josh.
I guess this comes down to, is using the name of a unique, named, product identity character or creature including stats, a violation of the PCL?
And even if its not, would Paizo prefer it not be done? It seems like it would be irritating seeing Paizo creations completely rewritten and made available, stat-block, name, and all, for free on a fan site.
I recognize that this is probably ok (pathfinder wiki references product identity all over the place) but is putting the two together (fluff + rules) a violation? Again, it seems like not, but I want to be sure. This is, of course, a non-commercial fan-site, but I could see how that doesn't matter much if people can just come to our site for basically everything but the art and some ecology text.
I guess I'm saying that I'd like to honor the spirit/intention of the PCL and not just the letter of it. If Paizo prefers that we not post unique, named NPC's and monsters, even if it is allowed by the PCL, I'll have them taken down.
Chief Technical Officer
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Thanks Josh.
I guess this comes down to, is using the name of a unique, named, product identity character or creature including stats, a violation of the PCL?
And even if its not, would Paizo prefer it not be done? It seems like it would be irritating seeing Paizo creations completely rewritten and made available, stat-block, name, and all, for free on a fan site.
I recognize that this is probably ok (pathfinder wiki references product identity all over the place) but is putting the two together (fluff + rules) a violation? Again, it seems like not, but I want to be sure. This is, of course, a non-commercial fan-site, but I could see how that doesn't matter much if people can just come to our site for basically everything but the art and some ecology text.
I guess I'm saying that I'd like to honor the spirit/intention of the PCL and not just the letter of it. If Paizo prefers that we not post unique, named NPC's and monsters, even if it is allowed by the PCL, I'll have them taken down.
So long as you're complying with everything else in the Community Use Policy, it's ok.
The way we see it, even though we're letting you you give away some version of the character, folks who want the *story* that goes with that character will have to come to us.
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Chief Technical Officer
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How about using a euphemism, with a nod and a wink?
Ie, you don't use 'The Carrion King', but you use
<cough>
'The (ahem) Entrail Lord, if you know what I mean, guv, eh? Eh?'
If you were using the OGL without the Community use Policy (for example, if you're a commercial publisher), that's is indeed the sort of thing you'd have to do.
So long as you're complying with everything else in the Community Use Policy, it's ok.
The way we see it, even though we're letting you you give away some version of the character, folks who want the *story* that goes with that character will have to come to us.
Tanuki(Alice), Sultan, Nameless, that appears to be a green-light.
Thanks Vic!
Hey guys, so we're in the midst of converting previously released 3.5 formatted Paizo monsters over on d20pfsrd.com and I had a question.
Proper Names are considered Product Identity and as such are not open content per the OGL.
How does this affect unique monsters/creatures, such as:
- Ghartok, the Carrion King
- Madfang the Holy Ascensioner
- Sunlord Thalachos
I can see how a "Blast Shadow" would be open content because it does not have a "Proper Name" but creatures such as "Sunlord Thalachos" may be product identity and therefore not open content. I want to make sure we do not include anything that is not open and I can see how they would be considered product identity. After double-checking with d20srd.org, I do not see any creatures there that are unique or named either. I suppose at this point I am inclined to conclude they are not open until I hear otherwise and I will remove them from the site to be safe.
--John
LOVE the site.
I think you found your place in the Pazio-verse.I just printed off the conversions you did for Burnt Offerings and wish to thank you for all the effort you spared me. I am running a rise of the runelords campaign in a week with the new rules and wanted to do a full conversion rather than just 'quick conversion' as the group already ran the path before. Well, half the path, using beta rules and on the fly conversions.
LOVE the site.
I think you found your place in the Pazio-verse.I just printed off the conversions you did for Burnt Offerings and wish to thank you for all the effort you spared me. I am running a rise of the runelords campaign in a week with the new rules and wanted to do a full conversion rather than just 'quick conversion' as the group already ran the path before. Well, half the path, using beta rules and on the fly conversions.
Hey thanks for the compliments!
On a side note, everyone who uses the converted monsters, please support Paizo by purchasing the associated modules. Obviously you couldn't run the adventure without the module but I know people have ways of getting around things so I want people to remember to support the people who make this all possible.
As for the monster conversions, don't thank me for the conversions from PF#1, that would be the work of Paizo board poster "Alice Margatroid" (aka Tanuki on the d20pfsrd.com messageboards). If you have specific requests feel free to pop over there and mention something, or at the very least, give her a high-five for her efforts. She's rockin out the conversions!
At this point these are the folks working on conversions:
- Paizo user "Alice Margatroid" ('Tanuki' on d20pfsrd.com)
- Paizo user "Nameless" ('Nameless' on d20pfsrd.com)
- Paizo user "Tom Baumbach" ('The_Sultan' on d20pfsrd.com)
If you see any of them around be sure to thank them, not me. They're the ones doing the work :)
Edit: Oh, don't forget, if you notice a conversion error in any of the monsters, please post something on the d20pfsrd.com messageboards! Someone will get on there pretty darn quick to fix).