I've been considering doing a throwing weapons build with either the Unchained Barbarian or the Fighter.
Assume that the character is starting at high enough level to afford the Belt of Hurling, Lesser (which will grant Strength to attack rolls), and that we will be using Automatic Bonus Progression, 20 point buy. Lets shoot for 10-12th level character builds.
I was kind of inspired by the Advanced Weapon Training ability Trained Throw, but I couldn't use the Belt of Hurling with it since it appears to require dex to attack to function.
I've also considered using the Mutation Warrior archetype or perhaps using Weapon Master (perhaps both?).
But then I also noticed the UBarbarian gets bonuses with thrown weapons as well.
Which will make the better weapon thrower and all around character?
Is it better to use the belt of might hurling and not qualify for Trained Throw, or to split points between dex and strength and pick up Trained Throw when available? (Will the Trained Throw version end up with better damage?)
Should I use Startoss Comet or Blinkback Belt? It seems blinkback belt isn't necessary with Startoss Comet and a weapon with the returning quality, but you wont be able to make all attacks against same target and will require multiple targets to be within range of one another.
So give me your thoughts ideas, tips, and tricks.
Thrown weapons used to be non-viable IMO, but I think they may have gotten enough love to be usable now.
I say you need to go fighter, they can get the mastery feat that lets them full attack with 1 thrown weapon, Ricochet Toss. This means your belt is free for the Belt of Hurling, Lesser.
Mutation warrior and weapon master don't stack.
Personally I'd take 1 level of Primal Hunter barbarian, though I'm not sure you can unchain it since it's modifying rage. It gives the normal str bonuses to rage and an additional +2 to ranged attacks. So with the Belt of Hurling, Lesser you're getting a +4 accuracy and +2 damage. Then you pick up the extra rage feat once or twice and you have all the rage you need. Then go the rest as mutation warrior.
I think fighter will be better due to all the extra feats. You don't need blinkback belt if you have ricochet toss. Close Quarters Thrower will let you throw without attacks of opportunity. To do startoss and this stuff requires all the feats that fighters gives.
I think that's what I was actually thinking of instead of startoss style, I'm not sure if startoss is actually useful then.
I'm not sure if damage or utility is really my interest, I'm not sure what utility there is to be had, aside from ranged combat maneuvers...which I'm not particularly interested in as I find them to be very situational...
Trip would be bad for a ranged character
Disarm is only useful against humanoid creatures with weapons
Sunder is okay especially since were using Automatic Bonus Progression you don't really damage much loot (assuming you apply it to enemies also).
But in general I'm not a huge fan of ranged maneuvers. If there was other utility to be had I could be interested.
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You'll want the Ricochet Toss weapon mastery feat instead of a blinkback belt or a returning weapon. Startoss style is good for the +6 to damage, but it does lock you out of using Two Weapon Fighting as well. Even if you do go startoss comet, you'll still want to be able to full attack a single foe instead of being forced to use the comet aoe.
You'll still want the standard ranged feats, so you need Dex to qualify for them, so Trained Throw is going to be attractive because you'll need to keep dex up as well as str. It also gives you the freedom to get a cheaper belt, or to boost multiple stats.
Ranged Trip can be quite useful for the party.
Ace Trip (Targeting, Weapon Mastery)
You can trip f lying opponents with your ranged attacks.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Deadly Aim, Ranged Trip (Ranged
Tactics Toolbox 9), base attack bonus +6, weapon training
class feature with a ranged weapon.
Benefit: You don’t take the –2 penalty for making trip
attempts with a ranged weapon using Ranged Trip, and
you can attempt special ranged trip combat maneuver
checks against f lying creatures. If the combat maneuver
succeeds, the target falls at a rate of up to 100 feet per
round (assuming it is conscious and attempting to remain
airborne; otherwise, it falls at a rate of 500 feet per round)
until it hits the ground. Upon impact, it falls prone and
takes falling damage (half the normal damage if it
fell 100 feet per round; otherwise, normal damage
for the distance fallen). A falling creature is considered
entangled until it hits the ground, but it can attempt a Fly
check at the start of its turn to stop falling before it hits the
ground (DC = 15 + your base attack bonus); otherwise, it is
unable to move (other than falling) but can act normally
You'll want the Ricochet Toss weapon mastery feat instead of a blinkback belt or a returning weapon. Startoss style is good for the +6 to damage, but it does lock you out of using Two Weapon Fighting as well. Even if you do go startoss comet, you'll still want to be able to full attack a single foe instead of being forced to use the comet aoe.
You'll still want the standard ranged feats, so you need Dex to qualify for them, so Trained Throw is going to be attractive because you'll need to keep dex up as well as str. It also gives you the freedom to get a cheaper belt, or to boost multiple stats.
I think I wont be using Startoss Style, so I can use TWF because I hadn't thought about that, but I can totally TWF with THROWING AXES!
And that's just plain cool.
And you're right that you need dex to qualify for the ranged feats, so a primarily dex based character with a little strength is going to be the way to go.
I can't think of any particular belt I'll want, and boosting multiple stats isn't a worry, since as I said I'm using Automatic Bonus Progression.
How about Warpriest, with maybe a Fighter dip for feats? It can make even a starknife viable. The Arsenal Chaplain archetype also gets weapon training at level 5.
Why warpriest? Fighter's can use advanced weapon training to get the scaling weapon damage effect, and I'm not a fan of the reduced BAB of the warpriest.
I know you were thinking throwing axes, but if you went dragoon, you get double damage on weapon training for spears, which would then be doubled for Trained Throw. Javelins have three times the range of axes too.
What would be the benefit of the Dragoon vs a fighter with Weapon Training in thrown weapons and picking up a javelin?
The dragoon’s weapon training bonus with spears improves by +1 on attack rolls and +2 on damage rolls for every four levels beyond 5th (to a maximum of +4 on attack rolls and +8 on damage rolls at 17th level).
Trained Throw (Ex) When the fighter makes a ranged attack with a thrown weapon and applies his Dexterity modifier on attack rolls and his Strength modifier on damage rolls, he doubles his weapon training bonus on damage rolls.
So at lv17 since you're normally adding +8 Trained Throw doubles that to be adding +16.
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The dragoon’s weapon training bonus with spears improves by +1 on attack rolls and +2 on damage rolls for every four levels beyond 5th (to a maximum of +4 on attack rolls and +8 on damage rolls at 17th level).
Trained Throw (Ex) When the fighter makes a ranged attack with a thrown weapon and applies his Dexterity modifier on attack rolls and his Strength modifier on damage rolls, he doubles his weapon training bonus on damage rolls.
So at lv17 since you're normally adding +8 Trained Throw doubles that to be adding +16.
Or +20 with Gloves of Dueling.
Wouldn't you only be able to pick up Advanced Weapon Training via feat then? Since you don't get any additional weapon trainings to spend on it?
It would be a lot of damage.
You also lose weapon training, which prevent Mutation Warrior. Which loses mutagen and the Fly Discovery...
That's a hard choice to make.
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Starknife Hurler
Human fighter (mutation warrior) 10 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 93)
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +12
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Defense
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AC 26, touch 17, flat-footed 21 (+8 armor, +2 deflection, +5 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 94 (10d10+30)
Fort +12, Ref +12, Will +14 (+4 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Ranged +1 starknife +20/+20/+15 (1d10+16/×3)
+1 starknife +20/+20 (1d10+15/×3)
Special Attacks weapon trainings (trained throw, thrown +4)
--------------------
Statistics
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Str 14, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +10; CMB +12; CMD 30 (34 vs. disarm, 34 vs. sunder)
Feats Advanced Weapon Training, Advanced Weapon Training, Clustered Shots[UC], Greater Weapon Focus (starknife), Point Blank Master[APG], Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Quick Draw, Rapid Shot, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (starknife), Weapon Specialization (starknife)
Skills Acrobatics +15, Craft (weapons) +14, Fly +15, Perception +12, Stealth +15
Languages Common, Dwarven
SQ mutagen (+4/-2, +2 natural armor, 100 minutes), mutagen discovery (wings[UM])
Other Gear +2 mithral breastplate, +1 starknife, +1 starknife, gloves of dueling[APG], sash of the war champion[APG], 7,902 gp
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Tracked Resources
--------------------
+1 starknife - 0/1
+1 starknife - 0/1
Armor Attunement (1/day) - 0/1
Weapon Attunement (1/day) - 0/1
Wings (10 minutes/day) - 0/10
--------------------
Special Abilities
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Advanced Weapon Training You are specially trained to use your weapon skills in new ways.
Prerequisites: Fighter level 5th, weapon training class feature.
Benefit: Select one advanced weapon training option, applying it to one fighter weapon group you h
Advanced Weapon Training You are specially trained to use your weapon skills in new ways.
Prerequisites: Fighter level 5th, weapon training class feature.
Benefit: Select one advanced weapon training option, applying it to one fighter weapon group you h
Armed Bravery (+6/+12) (Ex) Add bravery bonus to will save, Intim. DC to demoralize you increases by amount shown.
Clustered Shots Total damage from full-round ranged attacks before applying DR
Focused Weapon (Weapon Training [Thrown] +4, Starknife) (Ex) Can deal damage as per Sacred Weapon class feature with chosen weapon.
Mutagen (DC 16) (Su) Mutagen adds +4 to a physical & -2 to a mental attribute, and +2 nat. armor for 100 minutes.
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Quick Draw Draw weapon as a free action (or move if hidden weapon). Throw at full rate of attacks.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Trained Throw (Weapon Training [Thrown] +4) (Ex) Thrown weapon atk using Dex mod, add double training bonus to damage.
Weapon Training (Thrown) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Thrown weapons
Wings (10 minutes/day) The alchemist gains batlike, birdlike, or insectlike functional wings, allowing him to fly as the fly spell for a number of minutes per day equal to his caster level. These minutes do not need to be consecutive, but they must be spent in 1-min
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Trying to build this character I've come to realize it's incredibly feat intensive.
Anyone else trying to build such a character could lose weapon specialization, point blank master, and conceivably ignore Two Weapon Fighting. However, they're going to have to pick up the feat that is required to get Ricochet Toss (assuming non-Fighter build).
They lose out on Point Blank Master, which is the only thing I know of to prevent provoking for making ranged attacks, so while it's not a feat they're spending they'll wish they had it.
With only 20-30 ft range increment you're probably going to be up close and personal with the enemy a lot of time.
Anyone know if the chakram is considered a light weapon for the purposes of two weapon fighting? I specifically chose the starknife because it's a light melee weapon which means less penalties for TWF and has a 20ft range increment. The chakram I believe is only listed as a ranged weapon, so it wont count as light even though it only takes one hand to use. So you would take -4 (instead of -2) if you dual wield them, correct? And if it would be the same for the javelin.
Though that would open up not TWF and just using Startoss Style for the extra damage and using a shield. (Though once I get another mutation I can equip a shield in my 3rd arm).
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Trying to build this character I've come to realize it's incredibly feat intensive.
Anyone else trying to build such a character could lose weapon specialization, point blank master, and conceivably ignore Two Weapon Fighting. However, they're going to have to pick up the feat that is required to get Ricochet Toss (assuming non-Fighter build).
They lose out on Point Blank Master, which is the only thing I know of to prevent provoking for making ranged attacks, so while it's not a feat they're spending they'll wish they had it.
With only 20-30 ft range increment you're probably going to be up close and personal with the enemy a lot of time.
Anyone know if the chakram is considered a light weapon for the purposes of two weapon fighting? I specifically chose the starknife because it's a light melee weapon which means less penalties for TWF and has a 20ft range increment. The chakram I believe is only listed as a ranged weapon, so it wont count as light even though it only takes one hand to use. So you would take -4 (instead of -2) if you dual wield them, correct? And if it would be the same for the javelin.
Though that would open up not TWF and just using Startoss Style for the extra damage and using a shield. (Though once I get another mutation I can equip a shield in my 3rd arm).
Close-Quarters Thower gives the same effect as point blank master for thrown builds and isn't fighter-only.
A javelin is specifically counted as a one-handed weapon for TWF in the combat chapter, so I would say a chakram is as well.
As for range penalties, you can reduce them with Far Shot and Distance Thrower, or extend your increment with a level of hurler barbarian.
Good to know for other ranged characters about close quarters thrower, though it does come with another feat tax.
Also good to know about javelins and chakrams. It means I probably wouldn't select them if I intended to TWF, though I'm not sure if TWF is better or just focusing on a single weapon (still with the assumption of Automatic Bonus Progression.
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If you wanted to just throw spears with dragoon, could you take rapid shot with returning spears and richoet toss, or does that only work with more ammunition style weapons?
You can make an additional ranged attack.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot.
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round at your highest bonus. All of your attack rolls take a –2 penalty when using Rapid Shot.
If you wanted to just throw spears with dragoon, could you take rapid shot with returning spears and richoet toss, or does that only work with more ammunition style weapons?
You can make an additional ranged attack.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot.
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round at your highest bonus. All of your attack rolls take a –2 penalty when using Rapid Shot.
You wouldn't need Returning on your javelin if you have ricochet toss, and rapid shot should work just fine assuming you have quick draw and ricochet toss.
I just don't like the idea of ricocheting javelins because it just looks absurd in my head. I also don't like that Dragoon trades in Armor Mastery (which locks me out of Mutation Warrior) and loses the 1st level bonus feat, when this build is already especially feat hungry. My above build doesn't even have Deadly Aim because he just doesn't have enough feats for it yet.
In return the dragoon gets the better damage with spear weapons (including javelin) and the banner ability which isn't good for thrown weapon builds. In you're only concerned about DPR then Dragoon is a good choice, but I want to be a little more well rounded than that.
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If you wanted to just throw spears with dragoon, could you take rapid shot with returning spears and richoet toss, or does that only work with more ammunition style weapons?
You can make an additional ranged attack.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot.
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round at your highest bonus. All of your attack rolls take a –2 penalty when using Rapid Shot.
You wouldn't need Returning on your javelin if you have ricochet toss, and rapid shot should work just fine assuming you have quick draw and ricochet toss.
I just don't like the idea of ricocheting javelins because it just looks absurd in my head. I also don't like that Dragoon trades in Armor Mastery (which locks me out of Mutation Warrior) and loses the 1st level bonus feat, when this build is already especially feat hungry. My above build doesn't even have Deadly Aim because he just doesn't have enough feats for it yet.
In return the dragoon gets the better damage with spear weapons (including javelin) and the banner ability which isn't good for thrown weapon builds. In you're only concerned about DPR then Dragoon is a good choice, but I want to be a little more well rounded than that.
Thanks!
What are the advantage of thrown weapons over missile ones? Just the strength bonus on damage or are there more "fun and games" you can play with various tricks?
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Thanks!What are the advantage of thrown weapons over missile ones? Just the strength bonus on damage or are there more "fun and games" you can play with various tricks?
The only mechanical advantage a thrown weapon has over a bow is not needing ammunition. A bow has better range, better or equal damage per hit, the ability to use manyshot, and requires less feats to get off the ground.
Thrown weapons are just cooler, but mechanically they are behind archery. Just like every other combat style in the game.
Thanks!
What are the advantage of thrown weapons over missile ones? Just the strength bonus on damage or are there more "fun and games" you can play with various tricks?
Bows are straight up better than thrown weapons.
I'm working on building a thrown weapon character as challenge to see if I can make a viable character.
I think the answer is yes, but it's still not as good as an archer. The biggest problem being all the extra feats required to make the build work on a fundamental level. Like quick draw and ricochet toss, they cause the build to be behind compared to archer builds.
It's really only at all balanced out because of Trained Throw for Fighters which doubles Weapon Training damage. Without it, this build wouldn't be viable.
Thrown weapons are just cooler, but mechanically they are behind archery. Just like every other combat style in the game.
I mean, two handed power attacking isn't far behind. It's really only not always having a full attack that keeps it behind.
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I just don't like the idea of ricocheting javelins because it just looks absurd in my head.
In my head, it looks sort of like this. Which is awesome.
So while working on my thrown weapon build I came across something that extended the distance of point blank shot when using thrown weapons.
Does anyone know what this feat is? I can't remember it and didn't select it when I found it because I didn't have room in the build at the time.
Is this something the Vigilante can do?
Is this something the Vigilante can do?
Is what something a vigilante can do?
If you're referring to the ability which I asked about, yes but no.
If I recall correctly it was a feat that extended the distance by which you could benefit from point blank shot from 30ft to the 2nd and 3rd range increments of your thrown weapon. So yes, a vigilante could do it if they had the feat. But no, it's not a vigilante specific ability (IIRC) which is what it felt like you were asking.
It may have even been the combat stamina effect of another feat.
Edit: Found it, but it doesn't apply. The feat is the combat stamina effect of Arc Slinger, and only applies on slings/sling staff.
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I had one question regarding this kind of build with Startoss Comet, doesn't it really only require 2 targets, then you just have the attacks bounce back and forth?
For Startoss Shower, it's strongly implied that you can't bounce back.
Benefit(s): When you hit an opponent while using the Startoss Comet feat, you can continue to make attacks against foes that are within one range increment of all previous opponents.
Since your new target must be within one range increment of all previous opponents, it can't be a previous opponent.
I think making a thrown weapon Warpriest with the air blessing might be funny. Probably not optimal, but funny.
Air is good, but the lack of access to weapon training still makes this difficult.
Ricochet Toss is nearly a requirement of the build, as is Trained Throw for keeping up damage.
Now, luckily you can get Ricochet Toss, but you would need extra feats to do it...or....
You could go Arsenal Chaplain which gets weapon training. But in return your forced to choose War domain.