RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I've finished reading the influence section for both individuals and organizations and really wished there had been a sidebar of how these interact with or replace the relationship and prestige based organization rules. Do they work well together, or should one replace the other (with which one being more complicated vs. more simplified).
Which will future APs use as their default when appropriate?
Unfortunately, conjuration implement school is explicitly banned for psychometer for some reason, which is too bad since it would be pretty cool.I don't think there are enough focus powers for Psychometrist to be interesting.You have to specialize a bit more than a typical occultist, but (as shown) there are some nice abilities to pick up.
I'm actually developing an investigator (psychic detective) 2/stalker vigilante (psychometrist) 12 with conjuration (Servitor is pretty versatile as a base power, possibly Flesh Mend for hp recovery or Purge Corruption for dealing with diseases/poisons, and Side Step for movement regardless of terrain/placement of foes), Illusion (Minor Figment is somewhat useful as a base power for causing a distraction; Shadow Beast, especially when mixed in with Servitor, is pretty good; Unseen can also be extremely useful), and transmutation (already covered, although I'd say Quickness is better than Sudden Speed) implements. I'm still trying to decide the order of implement schools and which focus powers to keep (and if I want to take the Extra Focus Power feat).
Rats. I read that initially, but forgot it.
I guess Servitor is "too good" for a non-casting class...
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I havent looked in-depth at all of them yet but from what I've seen so far, is that quite a few are really designed around a niche 'Intruige' style campaign.
"Thats the whole point!!"... I hear you cry... well yes and no.
Yes in terms of the idea but in terms of the delivery, if the balance is off (gains vs losses) then it sets bad precedents for future archetypes, irrespective of the setting.
I think very few of the Archetypes trade things for things that are worth less. Some, certainly, but no more than in most hardcover books.
So...this complaint doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me in a lot of ways.
Shame you can't aid another on saves, and a nat.1 autofails anyway so the brute will be trying to kill teammates once a week even with godlike saves.Well, aid another checks stack, so it's probably better to have the whole party working to calm you down if possible...Well, not constantly. They attack enemies first. You only have to save once there are no more enemies. Just gotta keep a Black Widow around to talk you down!See I thought it'd be really cool that instead of the DC being 20+level to attack everything the DC was 20-level. That way as you level it becomes easier to control yourself rather than harder.Yeah but people will want to play Brawlers.
After read over it multiple times I can safely say the Brute was meant as an NPC/Antagonist option, not a PC one.
Wild Rager becomes confused if they CHOOSE to rage, whereas a Brute transforms anytime a fight breaks out (and probably doesn't even need that much) and tries to kill everything around it.
WR has a manageable DC for the save, Brute does not, and also no longer has the Vigilant's good Will save progression.
That's actually really cool and would work great if you or your players wanted to actually play as one ^w^
Well, okay not that great since you'd still have to constantly be making checks to not kill your friends ;p
Actually, the Brute can benefit from aid another on Will saves to not kill people they don't mean to kill.
But yeah, I feel like the Brute really needs Iron Will and Improved Iron Will with a Defiant weapon...which is kind of problematic, but.
I am currently asking for opinions on how to not Hulk-Smash everyone in sight as the Brute. So far, here's what I have collected:
- A Vigilante's strong saves are Reflex and Will; you need to succeed a Will save to resist fighting his allies, but that...
Without a Quick Change Mask, it takes a minute to change back, you can't do it fast enough to not attack allies.
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So the vigilante is on the PFSRD now, and I'm not super impressed. Seems like a slightly buffed rogue with some hoops to jump through in order to make it work. I'd say it's better than a CRB rogue, lethal grace is pretty good, but nothing's really jumping out at me.
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So the vigilante is on the PFSRD now, and I'm not super impressed. Seems like a slightly buffed rogue with some hoops to jump through in order to make it work. I'd say it's better than a CRB rogue, lethal grace is pretty good, but nothing's really jumping out at me.
Well, bear in mind that Avenger has full BAB, and several very nice tricks available (including Pounce at 12th, as well as Weapon Focus + Specialization as one Talent), plus the ability to take any Vigilante talents it can't use for better things for Feats. It's actually pretty solid looking.
Stalker is...harder to work with, but actually has several nice tricks, too. Twisting Fear + Enforcer, for example, lets you double your 'Sneak Attack' once a turn every turn, just about.
And I'm a huge fan of Shield of Blades as well as Lethal Grace. SoB is Str-based only, but it adds your Power Attack penalty as a bonus to AC. That's just wonderful in combination with Heavy Armor, which isn't hard at all for a Vigilante to grab.
A lot of their tricks are a little, well, trickier than some of the existing classes stuff, but they actually look pretty solid if you're willing to give up a little combat power (as compared to, say, a Slayer) for utility and social advantages (especially the secret identity thing).
And several of the Archetypes are very good. Psychometrist gets a variety of Occultist stuff, as mentioned above, including the trick of putting Bane on your weapon pretty regularly. Bane + Pounce + Full BAB + Adding Power Attack as an AC bonus is not a bad combination of things for a martial character...
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So the vigilante is on the PFSRD now, and I'm not super impressed. Seems like a slightly buffed rogue with some hoops to jump through in order to make it work. I'd say it's better than a CRB rogue, lethal grace is pretty good, but nothing's really jumping out at me.
The Vigilante (Avenger) is, in many ways, the fixed Fighter/martial that many people have asked for. Many of its talents grant multiple feats, remove prereqs, or act as complete substitutions for feat chains, so it effectively has many more feats than the Fighter combined with a slew of social options and a great skill list. It can even snag a version of Armor Training if it's so inclined. Avenger is probably my favorite thing about the book, though I personally find it a little bit disappointing that so many of the social talents hinge on your character being able to use the optional renown system.
Vigilante (Stalker) really is just kind of an alternate Rogue with some unique subsystems and abilities to play with. My impression so far is that one of its biggest advantages over the Rogue is that it has much more facility for traditionally terrible combat styles, like sniping, and by and large Vigilante talents are far superior to Rogue talents (particularly since your combat and social talents are divided into two separate pools and don't share resources).
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So the vigilante is on the PFSRD now, and I'm not super impressed. Seems like a slightly buffed rogue with some hoops to jump through in order to make it work. I'd say it's better than a CRB rogue, lethal grace is pretty good, but nothing's really jumping out at me.Well, bear in mind that Avenger has full BAB, and several very nice tricks available (including Pounce at 12th, as well as Weapon Focus + Specialization as one Talent), plus the ability to take any Vigilante talents it can't use for better things for Feats. It's actually pretty solid looking.
Stalker is...harder to work with, but actually has several nice tricks, too. Twisting Fear + Enforcer, for example, lets you double your 'Sneak Attack' once a turn every turn, just about.
And I'm a huge fan of Shield of Blades as well as Lethal Grace. SoB is Str-based only, but it adds your Power Attack penalty as a bonus to AC. That's just wonderful in combination with Heavy Armor, which isn't hard at all for a Vigilante to grab.
A lot of their tricks are a little, well, trickier than some of the existing classes stuff, but they actually look pretty solid if you're willing to give up a little combat power (as compared to, say, a Slayer) for utility and social advantages (especially the secret identity thing).
And several of the Archetypes are very good. Psychometrist gets a variety of Occultist stuff, as mentioned above, including the trick of putting Bane on your weapon pretty regularly. Bane + Pounce + Full BAB + Adding Power Attack as an AC bonus is not a bad combination of things for a martial character...
I can agree that avenger is better than stalker by a country mile. But it's still not a true full BAB class, as it's still rocking a D8 Chassis. Also I'm not a huge fan of this trend that's been going on since the APG for classes (archetypes in this situation) of taking 9th level casters and giving their casting to 6th level casting list (like the warpriest with cleric).
It's better, but the talents still feel in line with rogue talents, or really I should say 'mundane' talents, which makes the lack of extra vigilante talent feat not as daunting as I would have thought.
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I can agree that avenger is better than stalker by a country mile. But it's still not a true full BAB class, as it's still rocking a D8 Chassis.
True, but the Talents can make up for a lot. And Pounce and two Good Saves (including Will Saves) make up for more.
I've been doing some basic analysis comparing Avenger to Slayer (both doing Str builds), and they come out looking pretty good, actually. Lower HP and slightly lower offense, but much better AC, Pounce (which more than makes up for the offensive thing when it kicks in), and several tricks Slayer can't really duplicate. And they get the secret identity and social talents on top of all that.
It's not gonna win any DPR contests outside some niche situations like a Vital Strike AoO build (well, it will in practice vs. things lacking Pounce once it has it), but it's still very solid in combat, and has some really neat stuff other people can't readily duplicate. Plus being legitimately good outside combat.
Also I'm not a huge fan of this trend that's been going on since the APG for classes (archetypes in this situation) of taking 9th level casters and giving their casting to 6th level casting list (like the warpriest with cleric).
See, I sorta like that for Vigilante specifically. Your Warlock's secret identity can be a lower level Wizard! That's super neat.
I don't mind it too much otherwise, either, but it's super appropriate for a Vigilante.
It's better, but the talents still feel in line with rogue talents, or really I should say 'mundane' talents, which makes the lack of extra vigilante talent feat not as daunting as I would have thought.
It's indisputably a mundane class rather than a magical one. I'd just argue it's a good mundane class.
So the vigilante is on the PFSRD now, and I'm not super impressed. Seems like a slightly buffed rogue with some hoops to jump through in order to make it work. I'd say it's better than a CRB rogue, lethal grace is pretty good, but nothing's really jumping out at me.
Like most classes without magic it's better as an NPC than a PC, this one is notable though since it can give divination the middle finger, meaning if you want to have a murder mystery it's possible even if the diviner is throwing out spells. Hell you could have multiple vigilantes take the same identity but different archetypes if you want to have a lot of fun messing with the PCs, and that's just one idea.
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Okay, maybe I'm just silly slow, but which talent gives pounce?I believe they're referring to Mad Rush.
How did I gloss over that one? QSS. I suppose them gradually starting to funnel out pounce is a good thing at least. Archetypes seem all over the place in quality, but Magical Child doesn't seem as bad as people were making it out to be.
How did I gloss over that one? QSS. I suppose them gradually starting to funnel out pounce is a good thing at least. Archetypes seem all over the place in quality, but Magical Child doesn't seem as bad as people were making it out to be.Okay, maybe I'm just silly slow, but which talent gives pounce?I believe they're referring to Mad Rush.
Mechanically, yeah it's not. I think much of it is which sorts of magical girl you can build. Because she is an awesome freelancer (and has the advantage of being right across the hall), Amanda actually came over and asked about this, and we had a discussion about the fact that, for instance, the warlock already had the blasty thing that a fair number of magical girls use. Amanda was the one in the discussion to come up with the idea that eventually became the archetype, and we liked it because it filled a good niche and covered some aspects of magical girls, although at the time I remember worrying that people would be upset for that reason. Overall, I recommend hybridizing with warlock a little (maybe a warlock with the transformation sequence ability) to get the blasty magical girl.
From a fluff perspective I don't mind the design choices, though admittedly I don't actually know much about magical girls as an archetype.
That said, I do have to wonder why the U-Summoner list was chosen. From what little I've looked up, most such characters I've been able to find tend to be more offensively than support oriented, usually with either a martial or blaster-y angle to them.
Actually I can't really think of any character that's well represented by the MC's mix of summoning, some buffing and a smattering of damage and BFC.
I only bring this up because most of the other archetypes seem to compare well to some existing characters or archetypes or designs, but I can't think of any concept that maps well to the Magical Child other than a character made specifically for that archetype.
Amanda actually came over and asked about this, and we had a discussion about the fact that, for instance, the warlock already had the blasty thing that a fair number of magical girls use.
Personally I think it would have been better to give the MC the magus list and mystic bolt (only maybe a bit stronger).
Because you're right, as a blaster the Warlock already has that covered... but only because of mystic bolt, which in and of itself seems kind of tacked on. On its own the Warlock is kind of a generalist archetype, because the Wizard list is a generalist list. Mystic Bolt is then just more or less a way to TWF on a spellcaster without gloves of storing or some other shenanigan.
Which is a shame, because conceptually Mystic Bolt is really cool.
Speaking of, on a wholly unrelated note I feel like Mystic Bolt needed something else to differentiate between melee and ranged.
Because as is right now, melee mystic bolt feels less like its own option and more like the ability to not provoke AoOs if you attack an adjacent target and give up the bonuses from point blank and rapid shot.
Don't forget about the physically oriented magical girls either, there's plenty of them that use their own strength for most of the fight and only using special attacks as finishers (Pretty Cure is one of the best places to look for that sort of thing.) Honestly the archetype would have been better off just changing the way to get into the vigulatne identy and giving them a familiar and make the archetype able to fit in with all the other archetypes the class has.
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So, I see a lot of comparisons between the avenger and fighters, which, while I understand, I don't feel is really accurate. To me, it really seems like the avenger compares a lot closer to the core monk, at least when it comes to combat. They both have (essentially) full BAB with a d8 hit die. Both are capable of really good AC (with little to no ACP), both have class options to be good at combat maneuvers, both can get good boosts to unarmed strike damage, both can be significantly faster than other members of their respective race, both can fall a significant distance without taking damage, both can gain pseudo pounce, and both have a number of little tricks they can perform that are neat, unique, and not usually all that useful, or only circumstantially so.
Now, Vigilantes have some clear advantages over the monk. 2 more skill points per level. Likely a little less MAD (or not, if boosting cha for frightening appearance), or item dependent. The whole social persona, including the ability to ignore divination magic. And of course startling/frightening appearance.
Meanwhile, a monk is getting a good fort save, stunning fist, evasion/improved evasion, immunity to disease/poison, a +2 on saves versus enchantment. Along with a ki pool, which along with allowing a bunch of those cool abilities, especially if taking the Qinggong archetype (cause who doesn't take Qinggong), also allows a monk to treat his fists as magic, cold iron, silver, lawful and adamantine. And let's not forget the monk can get pseudo pounce 4 levels earlier (within the regular play levels of PFS).
Overall, the avenger actually appears to be a worse combatant than the core monk, not by much, but this is a class that was long lauded as being one of the poorest classes in the game and in dire need of a rework, which paizo actually provided. And for this you get 2 more skill ranks, and a number of social abilities that are of questionable use in the majority of campaigns, and seem to specifically require a campaign custom tailored to their class abilities to be particularly useful.
I have to say, I wanted to like the vigilante. I was really excited at first looking at all the new options they had. But every single vigilante build I've made has had a similar build with a different class, and the numbers were just better playing something else. I can't imagine playing one unless I really want, or need, the social aspects of the vigilante, and I just don't see that happening.
EDIT - Should point out that I'm mostly referring to stalker and avenger builds here. With archetypes, your mileage may vary. And it doesn't hurt that a lot of the archetypes are quite a bit cooler than base vigilante.
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Core Monk, as complained about, doesn't have Pounce. Its inability to take advantage of its mobility in a meaningful fashion is one of it's worst features and one of the main reasons that 'Core Monks suck'.
Give it Pounce (via Pummeling Style) and some Qinggong stuff to approximate the freedom Vigilantes have on Talents, and it's actually a pretty solid class.
And even then, Avenger is both never without their enhanced BAB, and way less MAD. You need Str and some Con. And Dex 12. That's it. Mental stats are nice, but in no way required. That's two stats to the Monk's 4. And a difference that matters a whole lot.
Oh, and Monk is trapped in a suboptimal combat style (TWF with a very specific weapon list) even if they can do it with a single weapon. Avenger can grab a two-handed weapon and go to town with Power Attack. And, in fact, is strongly encouraged to do so.
Really, comparing them is a bad idea. Too many profound differences. There's a reason my go-to comparison Class is Slayer. Those two actually occupy a lot of similar thematic and mechanical ground. And Avenger winds up comparing pretty well (they're probably a hair worse in combat, but a hair better outside it). I can go through a breakdown if people like.
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The Avenger is definitely a few big steps better than the core Monk as a combatant. The Vigilante Talents it gets are often as good as two or more feats (and occasionally just are two or three feats), Mad Rush comes at a cheap opportunity cost and Pounce abilities cannot be underestimated when it comes to what a character can actually do damage-wise. I typically assume that a character without pounce or a similar option is only getting a melee full attack on 2 out of 3 attack sequences, and I've had a lot of games where that would be a very generous estimate.
Combinations of Vigilante Talents can also drastically shift expected damage parameters; Mad Rush + Cunning Feint will be a wrecking ball for foes who use DEX or defenses that are lost when their DEX bonus to AC would be lost. If you want to go DEX primary and STR secondary and use Toughness and your FCB to shore up your hit points, Fist of the Avenger + Lethal Grace will make your bonus damage match and often outstrip the damage of the monk's UAS. Or you could just use a big two-handed martial weapon weapon the monk isn't proficient with and snag Signature Weapon, Shield of Blades, and Vital Punishment for a character that's tanky and drops bombs.
Abilities like Startling Appearance and Frightening Appearance also shouldn't be underestimated in determining actual damage performance either; the ability to inflict a -6 penalty to attack rolls on your opponent can drastically shift how much damage you take and how long you last in the fight (and thus, how much damage you actually deal).
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Okay Quick Avenger vs. Slayer breakdown:
For simplicity, both have Str 18 Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10 Wis 10, Cha 10, and are Human. Both will max the same 7 skills (not including Stealth...that's a different build) and have identical Traits, both are Human. Feats will diverge slightly, but both are using a polearm with reach. Both take all FCB in HP.
Vigilante: Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Social Graces,
Differences:
The Slayer has +1 to hit and damage, and +1 to certain skills when he spends a move action. He has +2 HP and a better Fort Save.
The Vigilante has +4 to one skill of his choice. He has a better Will Save. And has a secret identity, which is pretty cool and useful if used properly.
That's a clear advantage to the Slayer in combat, but an equally clear advantage to the Vigilante outside it.
Vigilante: Combat Reflexes, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Improved Initiative, Shield of Blades, Signature Weapon, Social Graces, Renown,
Gear: From here on, we'll assume a breastplate for the Slayer and a Hat of Disguise to help him compensate for the Vigilante's stuff. The Vigilante has a set of Full Plate. Their other gear is identical (this technically gives the gear advantage to the Slayer).
Differences:
The Slayer has +5 HP, and still has +1 to hit and damage, and +1 to certain skills when he spends a move action, as well as a better Fort Save. He has 1d6 Sneak Attack, and a Hat of Disguise.
The Vigilante has +3 AC over the Slayer (+1 if he hasn't attacked), a +4 to one skill of his choice, or Intimidate (depending on identity). He also has a better Will Save. And has a secret identity, which is pretty cool and useful if used properly
Things have changed a little here. The Vigilante still has a clear advantage outside combat, but also at least breaks even in combat. +3 AC is at least as good as a conditional +1 to hit and damage, +1d6 Sneak Attack, and +5 HP.
Vigilante: Combat Reflexes, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Improved Initiative, Shield of Blades, Signature Weapon (now provides Weapon Specialization), Great Fortitude, Stand Still, Vital Punishment, Furious Focus, Social Graces, Renown, Many Guises, Quick Change,
Differences:
The Slayer has +9 HP, and has +2 to hit, and +2 to certain skills when he spends a swift action, as well as a better Fort Save. He has 2d6 Sneak Attack, and a Hat of Disguise.
The Vigilante has +4 AC over the Slayer (+1 if he hasn't attacked, or chooses to use Furious Focus on a single attack), a +4 to two skill of his choice, or Intimidate (depending on identity). He also has a better Will Save. And has a secret identity, which is pretty cool and useful if used properly. He can get +20 Disguise to appear as random people.
So...in combat, the Slayer has +9 HP, +2 to hit, and 2d6 Sneak attack. The Vigilante has +4 AC and can make any AoO with vital Strike. That's...probably a net advantage to the Slayer, but not by a whole lot.
Out of combat, the Slayer has +2 to a bunch of skills and +10 Disguise, while the Vigilante has +20 Disguise and +4 to a couple of skill of his choice. Plus he automatically has better reactions from some people. That's a slight advantage to the Vigilante, but less than the Slayer's in combat.
Vigilante: Combat Reflexes, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Improved Initiative, Shield of Blades, Signature Weapon (now provides Weapon Specialization), Great Fortitude, Improved Vital Strike, Toughness, Stand Still, Vital Punishment, Furious Focus, Mad Dash, Social Graces, Renown, Many Guises, Quick Change, Improved Renown, Everyman, Inspired Investigator.
Differences:
The Slayer has +13 HP, and has +3 to hit, +1 damage, and +3 to certain skills when he spends a swift action, as well as a better Fort Save. He has 4d6 Sneak Attack, and a Hat of Disguise. He has Evasion, too.
The Vigilante has +5 AC over the Slayer (+1 if he hasn't attacked, or chooses to use Furious Focus on a single attack), a +4 to three skill of his choice, or +6 Intimidate (depending on identity). He also has a better Will Save. And has a secret identity, which is pretty cool and useful if used properly. He can get +20 Disguise to appear as random people. And he has Pounce and Inspiration.
Okay, here the Avenger winds up looking better again. The Slayer has +3 to hit, +1 damage, and +4d6 Sneak Attack, as well as Evasion (good for him). The Vigilante has either +5 AC or Pounce on any individual turn, and also can make AoO with Improved Vital Strike and spend Inspiration for various benefits. The Pounce makes up for a lot, and the AC helps, too.
In social stuff, the Slayer's actually catching up in some ways, though the vigilante's disguise stuff is amazing, and Inspiration is absurd too. I'd definitely still give the slight edge to the Vigilante.
I'd do a 16th level build, but really, the numbers all just go up without changing the paradigm at that point. The AC difference drops off if the Slayer buys Heavy Armor Proficiency and Mithral Full Plate (or Celestial Plate), but that's super expensive compared to the Vigilante's ordinary Plate, giving him the gold to make up the difference either there or elsewhere.
You could technically swap out some Feats to give the slayer a few more options, but I honestly can't think of anything that would help to much that the Avenger couldn't shuffle the some things around and get too.
EDIT: And that's more or less ignoring Startling and Frightening Appearance, which are, as Ssalarn notes, pretty darn good. Cunning Feint is also shiny, this build just didn't feel right with it, to be honest.
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The Avenger is definitely a few big steps better than the core Monk as a combatant.
One of the reasons why I compare the vigilante to the core monk, is because I'm currently playing a Qinggong pummeling style monk, and for every vigilante build I've made so far, the DPR numbers are either right in line with the monk, or worse, and that's not even considering that the monk can numerous times a day, on any round that he's not activating pummeling style, make an additional attack at his highest BAB. So as for pseudo pounce, I can't agree more, it's really useful, and my monk's had it since level 9.
Combinations of Vigilante Talents can also drastically shift expected damage parameters; Mad Rush + Cunning Feint will be a wrecking ball for foes who use DEX or defenses that are lost when their DEX bonus to AC would be lost.
This is of questionable value. You'll have a significant advantage against humanoid opponents who rely on ranged attacks, but that's likely it. Against the CR 12 monster in Bestiary 1 you can expect to see an AC drop of anywhere from 0 to 2. This is also usually where you see less humanoid opponents, and the ones who do rarely rely solely on AC for defence. And funnily enough, a feinting build might actually be better for the monk, since with pummeling style, two weapon feint and medusa's wrath he will be gaining attacks instead of losing them to feint. Not saying a vigilante couldn't also take medusa's wrath, but the pre-requisite feats are of questionable use, and unarmed strikes, despite fist of the avenger, aren't the best weapons for an avenger.
Abilities like Startling Appearance and Frightening Appearance also shouldn't be underestimated in determining actual damage performance either; the ability to inflict a -6 penalty to attack rolls on your opponent can drastically shift how much damage you take and how long you last in the fight (and thus, how much damage you actually deal).
So can stunning fist, and the monks ability to increase their AC by 4 for a round. And neither of those are tied to Alpha strikes where the opponent doesn't know you're there, and can be used multiple times in a single fight.
But the monk hasn't needed better defenses. He's been walking around a ridiculous AC since, well, ever. AC 33+ at 8th level if I remember. Plus good saves all around, and evasion/improved evasion. He usually gets hit once a fight, if that, has gone whole sessions without taking damage, and has the highest hit points at the table. Even with heavy armor and shield of swings the vigilante likely isn't matching the monks AC short of a sword and board build, at which point it's damage will likely be significantly lower, and it still has worse saves, and no evasion. Also monk bonus to CMD, which is almost cruel to GMs. And his DPR still meets or exceeds vigilante builds.
Now, the monk would never outshine the vigilante in social settings, but so would a large number of classes, most which also get spells and significant ways to contribute to combat. But in the design space of the spell-less martial combatants, the vigilante appears to be operating on the lowest rungs. The counterpoint seems to be they have interesting social abilities, which is surprising considering the re-release of the rogue, because being mediocre at combat wasn't acceptable just because you're good at other things. So are other classes that are also good at combat.
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Was going to note that Pummeling Style didn't stack with Two Weapon Feint and Medusa's Wrath, but I see that Pummeling Style was errata'd and got some pretty big buffs, so never mind. I will note that the extra attacks from Medusa's Wrath are far from guaranteed since they require the target to be flat-footed or afflicted with one of a small selection of specific penalties though. I'm also of the opinion that with options like the Sure Footed talent, and not needing to spread his point buy as much, the Vigilante is arguably more likely to get charge attacks against flatfooted foes than the Monk.
So can stunning fist, and the monks ability to increase their AC by 4 for a round.
Stunning Fist targets Fort, one of the most common high saves for monstrous opponents (and combat oriented humanoids), and has a WIS based save. The Vigilante just doesn't need to spread himself as thin to be as or more reliable with his abilities.
The monk also has to spend a swift action and a ki point for that AC boost, and thus locks himself out of his extra flurry attack and anything else he might want to spend that swift action on. The Vigilante has much more efficient action economy and doesn't need to choose between his offensive abilities and his defensive/debuffing abilities, they all blend together much more smoothly.
Ultimately though, the Vigilante needs to dedicate far fewer resources to competing with the Monk on damage, and will have much more all around facility in navigating all areas of the game. He also gets much more out of each investment, with a few exceptions like the Monk being able to jump straight to Medusa's Wrath. Inspired Vigilante gives the Vigilante a buff pool that is offensive, defensive, and skill oriented and generally won't impact his action economy.
A monk wanting to go the two weapon feinting route needs Combat Expertise or Dirty Fighting out of its normal feats, Improved Feint out of its Bonus feats, Greater Feint out of its normal feats, and Two-Weapon Feint out of its normal feats. The monk also doesn't get Bluff as a class skill and has virtually no room to improve Charisma. You're going to hard-pressed squeezing in Power Attack and two Pummeling Style feats with all that already dedicated.
Meanwhile, the Vigilante gets all that benefit prereq free with Cunning Feint, and has Bluff as a class skill with room to buff CHA if he wants. Sure the Monk can spend a trait to grab Bluff but the Vigilante doesn't have to and can use that trait to narrow the saving throw gap or boost his initiative to make him that much more likely to drop big full attacks against flat-footed foes. By 12th level, the Vigilante has 6 Vigilante Talents; he can grab Shield of Blades (which is basically Power Attack and Combat Expertise combined off a single penalty), which combined with Startling Appearance and Frightening Appearance can increase the difficulty for a target to hit him by 10, which should be more than enough to rival or exceed the Monk's AC for at least that round, he can snag Cunning Feint to keep his foe flat-footed so he can continue hammering on them (and while there are some types of monsters, like dragons, who aren't much affected by being flat-footed, these are the same types of monsters Monks often struggle against, while the Vigilante will actually be showing up the monk "in his house" as it were against the monk's favored enemies, humanoids with class levels).
Anyways, the point is that there are a lot of variables, but the Avenger can rival even a Qinggong/Pummeling Monk pretty easily with a much reduced opportunity cost. The monk has to pour bonus feats and class feats into becoming a potent damage dealer; the Vigilante can deal comparative damage with just a few of the right Talents, leaving him a lot of resource to push his damage further, or expand his strengths into other fields, and the entire time his out of combat facility is being buffed through a separate pool of resources. There's also the added benefit of a PFS player needing to own exactly one book to make that competitive Avenger, while they'll need to own at least two (Ultimate Magic and the ACG) to make the monk.
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Not a bad book at all. I give it a 6/10. We still have to suffer from poor archtype design. At this point why it still happens. Who knows. The Vigilante is okay. Not bad. Not something exciting either imo. Some useful advice on how to handle spells. Which I hope they include in the pocket edition of the core book. That stuff really should be in the core not in another book imo.
I like the Rumormonger spell a lot as a concept, it's perfect for counterintelligence and spotting unreliable members of an organization. The intrigue spells are, as usual, a lot better thought out and useful than the intrigue feats.
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I'm a little sad nobody looked at my Slayer/Avenger comparison. I worked hard on that.
One of the reasons why I compare the vigilante to the core monk, is because I'm currently playing a Qinggong pummeling style monk, and for every vigilante build I've made so far, the DPR numbers are either right in line with the monk, or worse, and that's not even considering that the monk can numerous times a day, on any round that he's not activating pummeling style, make an additional attack at his highest BAB. So as for pseudo pounce, I can't agree more, it's really useful, and my monk's had it since level 9.
Uh...a well-built Qinggong Monk with Pummeling Style is not considered a weak character. By anyone. A Vigilante having on-par DPR is about where I'd expect them to be, honestly.
This is of questionable value. You'll have a significant advantage against humanoid opponents who rely on ranged attacks, but that's likely it. Against the CR 12 monster in Bestiary 1 you can expect to see an AC drop of anywhere from 0 to 2. This is also usually where you see less humanoid opponents, and the ones who do rarely rely solely on AC for defence. And funnily enough, a feinting build might actually be better for the monk, since with pummeling style, two weapon feint and medusa's wrath he will be gaining attacks instead of losing them to feint. Not saying a vigilante couldn't also take medusa's wrath, but the pre-requisite feats are of questionable use, and unarmed strikes, despite fist of the avenger, aren't the best weapons for an avenger.
I think Ssalarn handled this point pretty well.
So can stunning fist, and the monks ability to increase their AC by 4 for a round. And neither of those are tied to Alpha strikes where the opponent doesn't know you're there, and can be used multiple times in a single fight.
But the monk hasn't needed better defenses. He's been walking around a ridiculous AC since, well, ever. AC 33+ at 8th level if I remember. Plus good saves all around, and evasion/improved evasion. He usually gets hit once a fight, if that, has gone whole sessions without taking damage, and has the highest hit points at the table. Even with heavy armor and shield of swings the vigilante likely isn't matching the monks AC short of a sword and board build, at which point it's damage will likely be significantly lower, and it still has worse saves, and no evasion. Also monk bonus to CMD, which is almost cruel to GMs. And his DPR still meets or exceeds vigilante builds.
And again, I'm not hearing anything where the Monk is better. Just that the Vigilante isn't better than an optimized Pummeling Style Qinggong Monk. Which is probably true, but not super relevant since that's a good solid martial character.
Now, the monk would never outshine the vigilante in social settings, but so would a large number of classes, most which also get spells and significant ways to contribute to combat. But in the design space of the spell-less martial combatants, the vigilante appears to be operating on the lowest rungs. The counterpoint seems to be they have interesting social abilities, which is surprising considering the re-release of the rogue, because being mediocre at combat wasn't acceptable just because you're good at other things. So are other classes that are also good at combat.
Uh...my counterpoint is that an optimized Qinggong Monk with Pummeling Style is nowhere near the lowest tier of martial combatant, actually.
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I'm a little sad nobody looked at my Slayer/Avenger comparison. I worked hard on that.
I looked at it, if that counts ;) Though Jason made the original avenger, when I made suggestions after the playtest, I was basing my analysis on slayer, actually, so I particularly appreciated your comparison. Seriously though, you've been on fire with some of your analyses recently DMW. Sometimes people read and enjoy them without commenting, though. It's one thing I've learned about the messageboards by talking to people in person; the people who read and like something are less likely to respond because it doesn't motivate response or seem like a new addition to the conversation as much as the people who disagree, are upset or mad, or want to argue.
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I looked at it, if that counts ;) Though Jason made the original avenger, when I made suggestions after the playtest, I was basing my analysis on slayer, actually, so I particularly appreciated your comparison. Seriously though, you've been on fire with some of your analyses recently DMW.
It totally counts. :)
And thanks, I do try and do a reasonably good job of analysis.
Sometimes people read and enjoy them without commenting, though. It's one thing I've learned about the messageboards by talking to people in person; the people who read and like something are less likely to respond because it doesn't motivate response or seem like a new addition to the conversation as much as the people who disagree, are upset or mad, or want to argue.
Oh, I'm definitely aware of that, and don't generally worry about it too much. I was more referring to Deignton Thrane, who specifically requested it and then posted after it without mentioning it.
Yeah, I though the Slayer/Avenger comparison was pretty spot on.
Thanks. :)
I appreciate the analysis, Deadmanwalking. I've been using your posts to guide me through my playtest rebuild and they've vindicating my views that the avenger vigilante holds up sufficiently when compared to other martial classes from my observations in PFS.
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I'm a little sad nobody looked at my Slayer/Avenger comparison. I worked hard on that.
Sorry, DMW. I did take a look, just had time to respond to either you or ssalarn, and I have a lot less criticism for your comparison. It's a pretty fair comparison between 2 similar builds using vigilante and something else. First thing though, both those builds should have Phalanx Formation somewhere. I mean, you just don't build a reach build without Phalanx formation unless you don't have any feats available.
Second thing is that this build plays to the vigilantes strengths, and not the slayers. I'm not saying the slayer is particularly bad, but the build lacks any meaningful way to leverage the static accuracy and damage bonuses that a slayer receives, or any meaningful way to use it's sneak attack class feature. Meanwhile the vigilante is set to take advantage of vital punishment.
I would say that a better comparison might be a fighter, possibly 2 handed fighter or lore warden using advanced weapon training to pick up max ranks in bluff, diplomacy, intimidate and sense motive. He might not have the disguise skill that a vigilante build has, but he'd be a heck of a lot better as a polearm user.
And I just wanted to say, even though we seem to be of differing opinions on the vigilante, I appreciate you taking your time to do the comparison.
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Yeah, I though the Slayer/Avenger comparison was pretty spot on.
For an Avenger, it was pretty spot on, but without avenger (or with most of the archetypes), that attack boost isn't there.
The reason I likened this to the rogue was because like the rogue, aside from avenger, the class has no innate situational/limited attack bonus like just about every other 3/4ths BAB class, and in its base form, is entirely mundane. That's giving me serious concerns about the accuracy of non avengers. That and for the most part, avenger talents seem a lot better than stalker talents.
There's also good feint support and they get lots of extra attacks at full BAB. You can get three attacks in a round and use your standard for something like Perfect Vulnerability if you use Up Close and Personal with Leave an Opening.
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There's also good feint support and they get lots of extra attacks at full BAB. You can get three attacks in a round and use your standard for something like Perfect Vulnerability if you use Up Close and Personal with Leave an Opening.
While nice, the dependance on surprise again reeks of the rogue's dependance on flanking/flatfooted, further strengthening the comparison between them. Something along the lines of studied strike would have been nice here, that didn't require a set up. It feels like the old rogue conversation of "any GOOD stalker would always attack from stealth" pop up. It's amusing how reminiscent the stalker's hidden strike is to the Complete Adventurer Ninja's sudden strike.
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Yeah, I though the Slayer/Avenger comparison was pretty spot on.For an Avenger, it was pretty spot on, but without avenger (or with most of the archetypes), that attack boost isn't there.
The reason I likened this to the rogue was because like the rogue, aside from avenger, the class has no innate situational/limited attack bonus like just about every other 3/4ths BAB class, and in its base form, is entirely mundane. That's giving me serious concerns about the accuracy of non avengers. That and for the most part, avenger talents seem a lot better than stalker talents.
Consider the following stalker adjustments at 8th level, using DMW's chassis (DMW seems to have only selected three vigilante talents at this level instead of four, so I'm adding one more, but it's possible I missed one in there), but swapping out Signature Weapon and taking Up Close and Personal and Leave an Opening (there's probably a few more tweaks you're going to make, like boots of elvenkind). Compared to the avenger and, slayer, if we consider the stalker to be at +0, we have three attacks at +0 each round (tall but one are Vital Strikes, and we can make four attacks at +0 each round with three Vital Strikes if we split them equally between two targets) and we get to move too. The avenger has two attacks at +1/-4 (would be 1 higher increase, but also Power Attacks for more) and the slayer has two attacks at +3/-2. One of the stalker's attacks deals 18 additional damage one attack deals 10 additional damage, and the Vital Strike deals 10 more + the weapon's damage dice (so 4.5 for a longspear, but 7 if you're enlarged), but we also don't have the damage boost from Specialization/Studied Target and 3 less for Power Attack, so reduce the gains in damage to 13, 5+damage dice, and 5+damage dice. From a damage perspective, the stalker is in good shape if you can get the combo to work. Simply removing Power Attack entirely actually makes us more accurate than the avenger on every attack, with more attacks, most of which deal more damage (+7 damage +3.5 or more damage, and +3.5 or more damage). The non-Power Attack build can go Dex with Lethal Grace (since we don't take Shield of Swings), swapping Str and Dex, for 2 extra damage and other Dexy stuff.
EDIT: Chess Pwn also makes some excellent suggestions, and you can definitely swap out the middle Vital Strike for a Perfect Vulnerability for some super accuracy fun. My build adjustments above have absolutely no dependence on surprise to produce those numbers, but it does require having as high Acrobatics as you can. Surprise Strike + Cunning Feint + Lethal Grace works very well for TWF builds and also doesn't depend on surprise, but DMW was looking at a two-handed reach build.
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Consider the following stalker adjustments at 8th level, using DMW's chassis (DMW seems to have only selected three vigilante talents at this level instead of four, so I'm adding one more, but it's possible I missed one in there), but swapping out Signature Weapon and taking Up Close and Personal and Leave an Opening (there's probably a few more tweaks you're going to make, like boots of elvenkind). Compared to the avenger and, slayer, if we consider the stalker to be at +0, we have three attacks at +0 each round (the last one is a Vital Strike, and we can make four attacks at +0 each round with two Vital Strikes if we split them equally between two targets) and we get to move too. The avenger has two attacks at +1/-4 (would be 1 higher increase, but also Power Attacks for more) and the slayer has two attacks at +3/-2. One of the stalker's attacks deals 18 additional damage one attack deals 10 additional damage, and the Vital Strike deals 10 more + the weapon's damage dice (so 4.5 for a longspear, but 7 if you're enlarged), but we also don't have the damage boost from Specialization/Studied Target and 3 less for Power Attack, so reduce the gains in damage to 13, 5, and 5+damage dice. From a damage perspective, the stalker is in good shape if you can get the combo to work. Simply removing Power Attack entirely actually makes us more accurate than the avenger on every attack,...
How could the same chassis be used for both when DMW's specifically calls out a reach weapon and you're suggesting lethal grace here? I don't think there's a finesseable polearm, at least one that's martial.
I'll admit I might be underestimating it a bit, but the stalker's damage is more situational (as you yourself admit, this is viable IF you get the combo to work), which is still leaving me less than impressed. I can admit that I did give it less credit than I originally should have, but its numbers are still way more shaky than I would care to have in a front line melee combatant.
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Sorry, DMW. I did take a look, just had time to respond to either you or ssalarn, and I have a lot less criticism for your comparison.
No worries. Like I said, I was only a little sad. :)
It's a pretty fair comparison between 2 similar builds using vigilante and something else. First thing though, both those builds should have Phalanx Formation somewhere. I mean, you just don't build a reach build without Phalanx formation unless you don't have any feats available.
Probably true. It does depend on who else is in their party in my experience. If they're pretty much the only melee in the party...
And you can swap out a few different Feats I gave both of them for it easily enough.
Second thing is that this build plays to the vigilantes strengths, and not the slayers. I'm not saying the slayer is particularly bad, but the build lacks any meaningful way to leverage the static accuracy and damage bonuses that a slayer receives, or any meaningful way to use it's sneak attack class feature. Meanwhile the vigilante is set to take advantage of vital punishment.
That's true enough, but that was mostly due to the Slayer simply having more Feats than he really needed as a two-handed weapon user.
I would say that a better comparison might be a fighter, possibly 2 handed fighter or lore warden using advanced weapon training to pick up max ranks in bluff, diplomacy, intimidate and sense motive. He might not have the disguise skill that a vigilante build has, but he'd be a heck of a lot better as a polearm user.
How is he better?
Vital Punishment probably makes up for the disparity in damage with a Two-Handed Fighter most of the time and they get almost the exact same number of Feats. Weapon Training gives a bonus to hit and damage, but the AC bonus from Vigilante likely compensates, and then there's Pounce and actually having two Good Saves, which both matter quite a bit.
Lore Warden is gonna come off better just because it has some unique features and gets extra skills. But that just lets it do something altogether different, not better at the same thing.
Both also have less skills until at least mid-levels (9th level minimum for a non-Lore Warden to have the same number of skills, and that at the expense of other things). And even once they have the same number (or more, for a Lore Warden) they'll never actually be good with them, since they lack any bonuses to them, while the Vigilante has a large number of such bonuses.
And I just wanted to say, even though we seem to be of differing opinions on the vigilante, I appreciate you taking your time to do the comparison.
You're quite welcome.
Consider the following stalker adjustments at 8th level, using DMW's chassis (DMW seems to have only selected three vigilante talents at this level instead of four, so I'm adding one more, but it's possible I missed one in there), but swapping out Signature Weapon and taking Up Close and Personal and Leave an Opening (there's probably a few more tweaks you're going to make, like boots of elvenkind). Compared to the avenger and, slayer, if we consider the stalker to be at +0, we have three attacks at +0 each round (tall but one are Vital Strikes, and we can make four attacks at +0 each round with three Vital Strikes if we split them equally between two targets) and we get to move too. The avenger has two attacks at +1/-4 (would be 1 higher increase, but also Power Attacks for more) and the slayer has two attacks at +3/-2. One of the stalker's attacks deals 18 additional damage one attack deals 10 additional damage, and the Vital Strike deals 10 more + the weapon's damage dice (so 4.5 for a longspear, but 7 if you're enlarged), but we also don't have the damage boost from Specialization/Studied Target and 3 less for Power Attack, so reduce the gains in damage to 13, 5+damage dice, and 5+damage dice. From a damage perspective, the stalker is in good shape if you can get the combo to work. Simply removing Power Attack entirely actually makes us more accurate than the avenger on every attack,...How could the same chassis be used for both when DMW's specifically calls out a reach weapon and you're suggesting lethal grace here? I don't think there's a finesseable polearm, at least one that's martial.
I'll admit I might be underestimating it a bit, but the stalker's damage is more situational (as you yourself admit, this is viable IF you get the combo to work), which is still leaving me less than impressed. I can admit that I did give it less credit than I originally should have, but its numbers are still way more shaky than I would care to have in a front line melee combatant.
The Lethal Grace idea was an aside at the bottom (presumably to keep reach, it would use a reach finesse weapon like Elven Branched Spear, so require more tweaking, though honestly the stalker doesn't really need reach much; it's just to keep the parallel). The only requisite of that combo is a successful Acrobatics check. If you don't trust in your ability to use Acrobatics (which is fair; in fact, those numbers show that if Acrobatics was a sure thing, the stalker would blow those other builds away while being more mobile), the Cunning Feint/Surprise Strike/Lethal Grace TWF build is also solid, and it's pretty easy to get Bluff high enough to more-or-less auto-feint. It lacks the extreme mobility increase over the slayer and avenger builds, and becomes full attack reliant like them. However, despite using TWF, at the benchmark level, surprise strike cancels the TWF -2 penalty, so your accuracy is going to be higher than the avenger's for more attacks (you make attacks at +0/-5/-5 but also the enemy loses its Dex bonus and the Power Attacking avenger has -1/-6 against full AC), plus you debuff the enemy for other party members.
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Consider the following stalker adjustments at 8th level, using DMW's chassis (DMW seems to have only selected three vigilante talents at this level instead of four, so I'm adding one more, but it's possible I missed one in there),
Just for the record, I used one for a Feat via Combat Skill. I might not have done that on an actual character, but I was trying to keep things as even as possible with the Slayer.
Consider the following stalker adjustments at 8th level, using DMW's chassis (DMW seems to have only selected three vigilante talents at this level instead of four, so I'm adding one more, but it's possible I missed one in there),Just for the record, I used one for a Feat via Combat Skill. I might not have done that on an actual character, but I was trying to keep things as even as possible with the Slayer.
Aha, that explains it!
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The Lethal Grace idea was an aside at the bottom (presumably to keep reach, it would use a reach finesse weapon like Elven Branched Spear, so require more tweaking, though honestly the stalker doesn't really need reach much; it's just to keep the parallel). The only requisite of that combo is a successful Acrobatics check. If you don't trust in your ability to use Acrobatics (which is fair; in fact, those numbers show that if Acrobatics was a sure thing, the stalker would blow those other builds away while being more mobile), the Cunning Feint/Surprise Strike/Lethal Grace TWF build is also solid, and it's pretty easy to get Bluff high enough to more-or-less auto-feint. It lacks the extreme mobility increase over the slayer and avenger builds, and becomes full attack reliant like them. However, despite using TWF, at the benchmark level, surprise strike cancels the TWF -2 penalty, so your accuracy is going to be higher than the avenger's for more attacks (you make attacks at +0/-5/-5 but also the enemy loses its Dex bonus and the Power Attacking avenger has -1/-6 against full AC), plus you debuff the enemy for other party members.
I'll admit I'm still not completely convinced, but you have given me something to think about, and I feel like I'll probably be more persuaded on things as more people start listing combos like the one listed above. I want to work with this class, and it's nice having a conversation with someone who's aware of what the nuts and bolts can do, since I didn't really follow the playtest.
I'll keep tinkering with it, see what I come up with, but I'm still not the biggest fan of the stalker. Avenger is aces though, totally on board with that.
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The Lethal Grace idea was an aside at the bottom (presumably to keep reach, it would use a reach finesse weapon like Elven Branched Spear, so require more tweaking, though honestly the stalker doesn't really need reach much; it's just to keep the parallel). The only requisite of that combo is a successful Acrobatics check. If you don't trust in your ability to use Acrobatics (which is fair; in fact, those numbers show that if Acrobatics was a sure thing, the stalker would blow those other builds away while being more mobile), the Cunning Feint/Surprise Strike/Lethal Grace TWF build is also solid, and it's pretty easy to get Bluff high enough to more-or-less auto-feint. It lacks the extreme mobility increase over the slayer and avenger builds, and becomes full attack reliant like them. However, despite using TWF, at the benchmark level, surprise strike cancels the TWF -2 penalty, so your accuracy is going to be higher than the avenger's for more attacks (you make attacks at +0/-5/-5 but also the enemy loses its Dex bonus and the Power Attacking avenger has -1/-6 against full AC), plus you debuff the enemy for other party members.I'll admit I'm still not completely convinced, but you have given me something to think about, and I feel like I'll probably be more persuaded on things as more people start listing combos like the one listed above. I want to work with this class, and it's nice having a conversation with someone who's aware of what the nuts and bolts can do, since I didn't really follow the playtest.
I'll keep tinkering with it, see what I come up with, but I'm still not the biggest fan of the stalker. Avenger is aces though, totally on board with that.
Yep, avenger is more straightforward, whereas stalker is about tricks, combos, and using your skills to mess with your enemies. The cool thing is that unlike, say, favored enemy, you can get it to where you're in control of those factors, rather than them being something you don't know whether you can apply.
I think that between me and Chess Pwn, we've mentioned many of the stalker talents already, but probably the one big build that's still missing is Twisting Fear + some way to add on AoE Intimidate (frex Gory Finish) so you can deal AoE damage while debuffing (At 8th, it would be 10 AoE damage for each Gory Finish; Dreadful Carnage is even better but late-game) and/or single-target Intimidate like Cornugon Smash or Enforcer for the extra damage boost to single targets.
Each of these three ideas focuses on a different skill too (Acrobatics, Bluff, or Intimidate), and you can definitely mix and match a bit at higher levels.
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The only additional thing I have to bring up in regards to the current conversation are the Archetypes.
The spellcasting Archetypes are very much their own things, and I'd rather not talk about Brute, but Psychometrist and Wildsoul aren't precisely their own different thing and add some interesting wrinkles to Stalker and Avenger.
Specifically, Psychometrist adds at-will Bane starting pretty early, which can add some accuracy to Stalker pretty readily if set up right. It's only a +2 to start with, but goes to at least +3 at 6th, and +4 at 12th. And that's on top of the damage boost. It's obviously great for Avenger as well.
Wildsoul is also pretty cool, but I feel like the most notable one from an optimization perspective is using the Bear version to do what is jokingly being called the ManBearPig build. You go Skinwalker (Ragebred) and wind up with 5 primary natural attacks at 2nd level. All of which you could add Lethal Grace to, if you want (though if doing that, you might not have quite that many attacks until 3rd, since you'll want Weapon Finesse at 1st). The Lethal Grace kicks in at 4th, of course. At 6th, you get another attack. An extra 3d4 on each of 6 attacks adds up quick. And yeah, your BAB isn't great, but with 6 attacks at full BAB, it matters a lot less.
The Vivisectionist Alchemist can already do this, but only while using Mutagen. You have it all day every day if you want, and the Lethal Grace damage on top. That's not as good as going Beastmorph Vivisectionist and turning into a four-armed gargoyle, mind you, but it's not bad at all, and still has all its social talents to play with.
Or, you can do the same as an Avenger, and toss on Pounce as well. Though that'll lose you all those lovely d4s of damage.
Quite true DMW; I was looking without archetypes, but psychometrist and wildsoul are very good additions for the right avenger and stalker builds.
Psychometrist is great. Grab Transmutation as the first implement, then take Extra Focus Power at 7th. Taken with Avenger, you've now got a full-BAB character that can spend points to fly, cast single-target Haste, and power up their weapon. (The flat one-minute duration for the weapon is sad, but otherwise fine.)
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I will say that if you build for it with Skill Focus and the right magic items, you can have an obscenely high acrobatics to make up close and personal work almost all the time. I retired my playtest dex based gnome stalker that used Up Close and Personal + Leave an Opening at level five because he was outperforming every other martial consistently.
I will say that if you build for it with Skill Focus and the right magic items, you can have an obscenely high acrobatics to make up close and personal work almost all the time. I retired my playtest dex based gnome stalker that used Up Close and Personal + Leave an Opening at level five because he was outperforming every other martial consistently.
Playtest UC&P was a lot better, I believe, triggering all of the stuff contingent on unawareness as opposed to just the extra damage.
So, the magical child is aces on many fronts. (I would like to see a feat or trait for more blasting focus for people who care about that flavor?) but more importantly, that familiar is insane. If I understand it right because of how the abilities work you can add archetypes normally impossible imporved familiar. Heck, it is tempting to give up a few late game levels in a theory built to 20 for you can get the Eldritch Guardian's lovely little ability to have a stupid great familiar with fantastic saves and pretty good BaB.