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James, Adam and Liz:
Is there any plans for an off-Innersea adventure path? I am looking at Casmaron, Iobaria, Azlanti or Arcadia based path. Or a mix of all of these above. I know you guys have to be mulling it, since so many of us have brought it up. I know you can't reveal secrets, but I also know you can hint that it is somewhere in a near timeline to do. Inquiring and hopeful minds want to know:)
Creative Director
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James, Adam and Liz:
Is there any plans for an off-Innersea adventure path? I am looking at Casmaron, Iobaria, Azlanti or Arcadia based path. Or a mix of all of these above. I know you guys have to be mulling it, since so many of us have brought it up. I know you can't reveal secrets, but I also know you can hint that it is somewhere in a near timeline to do. Inquiring and hopeful minds want to know:)
No plans.
Adventure Paths are a lot of work, but one of the things that makes them easier and doable is being able to use an established setting as a common starting point and support structure. The Inner Sea region is an Adventure Path's skeleton AND it's skin. Doing an Adventure Path set in another setting that doesn't have a lot of support would be like a person who had a few arm bones and a patch of skin on the belly, but was otherwise a shapeless pile of muscle and guts. That type of person needs a LOT of work to not die, and an AP set entirely off of the Inner Sea region would require a similar amount of work. At this point, we could PROBABLY do one set entirely in Tian Xia, but given the numbers we've seen on our Tian Xia products, that's a risky move.
No plans.
Adventure Paths are a lot of work, but one of the things that makes them easier and doable is being able to use an established setting as a common starting point and support structure. The Inner Sea region is an Adventure Path's skeleton AND it's skin. Doing an Adventure Path set in another setting that doesn't have a lot of support would be like a person who had a few arm bones and a patch of skin on the belly, but was otherwise a shapeless pile of muscle and guts. That type of person needs a LOT of work to not die, and an AP set entirely off of the Inner Sea region would require a similar amount of work. At this point, we could PROBABLY do one set entirely in Tian Xia, but given the numbers we've seen on our Tian Xia products, that's a risky move.
That's a shame to hear, but understandable. Personally the reason I didn't go as much for Jade Regent was because it wasn't fully set in Tian Xia, and I really like my campaigns to each feel like their own little distinct corner of the globe to get fully immersed in. I would absolutely be all over a full Tian Xia campaign, especially if it tapped into the wuxia tradition too. Similarly, I'd love to see more set in Casmaron.
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That´s a very disapointing statement which makes me very sad.
The Tian Xia products were linked to some classes and development choices which at that time were new and among some people controversial, what they still are. Like samurai and ninja being alternate classes and "asian" armors and weapons being different from "european" ones.
That´s mechanical design choices separate from the flavor.
At this point of the game, there have been a lot more developments much riskier and much more controversial. Just look at the Numeria and tech thing and how crazy some people went there. Yet you still pulled this off very succesfully.
If you look over the threads, there´s also a lot of people calling out for more content in that direction, just like there are people calling for other stuff, like more dragon whatever. Only the call for Tian Xia stuff isn´t really new.
Also, risky? More risky than inserting the horror stuff with new mechanics? Or the psychic stuff with some adventures which are already off in different regions?
Looking at Jade Regent, i have to back up J-Bone there. The Tian Xia part was the good and cool part, the part before and the caravan part was the downer somehow.
On another level, this is also feels a bit like you´re saying while it´s cool to add a lot of vibes which have nothing to do with the game or Golarion because some people like it, it´s uncool to add other stuff.
Yeah Ctulluh has been mentioned 1000 times before and has some fans, but TianXia is at least similarly rooted in the game and has fans as well. With Ultimate Intrigue even Marvel/DC fans get more stuff into the game.
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Eh, people on messageboards say what they like, but the company has the sales figures generating this response.
I sincerely doubt no one at Paizo WANTS to do an AP set elsewhere on Golarion (or beyond!), but the tabletop gaming industry is not exactly forgiving of missteps in the area of cold-blooded bean-counting.
The history of hobby games is littered with failed companies, of properties that turfed despite any and all excellence, and of brilliant little gems that sold like garbage because the consumer base is not possessed of infinite funds.
Given the time and resources involved in putting out an AP, I'd say they're just keeping their ducks in a row.
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Vocal support on forums does not equal demand for sales. Paizo did Iron Gods not because I wanted it very much, they did it because they dipped the toe into SciFi territory with Distant Worlds and Reign of Winter and sales must have been good enough to warrant a full AP.
Matter of fact, I remember when Paizo did Art of Dragon Magaizne because A LOT of people on the boards asked for an art book VERY LOUDLY and made SOLEMN STATEMENTS that this is going to a MASSIVE HIT.
And so Paizo published it. It's a great book of excellent quality. It's now discounted from 35 USD to 4 USD and even despite that it still refuses to sell, 9 years later.
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Of course Paizo has sales figures.
But the sales figures on the books mentioned are some years old, just like those books. Back in the time, they were kinda a novelty and caused some peoples ire. Some were also disapointed in different ways about how things were done. Like i said, mainly samurai and ninja as well as eastern arms and armors were in the center of attention.
In the meantime, lots of other content came out, partly causing even greater uproars and the game changed a lot.
Paizo also gathered a lot of experience and i think it´s about time to learn from that experience. Paizo is able to do awesome stuff and they should.
I daresay the TianXia PFS scenarios are quite popular.
People who are into dragons got Dragons Demand.
A module could be a good start and test.
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I don't think that the problem are eastern arms and armors. I think the problem is that there is a large chunk of fanbase that won't buy anything that's outside their traditional pseudo-European-medieval fantasy comfort zone. So, any time you go outside of this territory, you need to estimate if sales generated by fans of a given non-traditional tangent who actually put their money where their mouth is will make up for all those turbo conservatives who will cancel their subs and balk at the idea of having robotz/lazors/anime/ninja/guns in their D&D. So when you have the choice of venturing into risky topics as opposed to safer ones ... you really need to have, between empirical data and business hunch, a solid idea of what your ROI is going to be.
Oh, and a single module is never a good test, because they are the least selling Paizo line.
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I can understand if it is the sales figures that drive the creative choices but, DANG IT, if Jade Regent was the test waters then that stinks! I say that because Jade Regent was, IMO, hardly representational of a what a fully Asian themed AP could be like. The first two books were uninspired, the third book fell far short of creative expectations, the fourth gets bogged down in a boring dungeon grind and finally by book 5 it becomes the AP we hoped for. Perhaps if the Jade Regent AP had been better it would have led to greater sales. Instead, it would seem the sales were poor, but I wonder how much of that was due to a lackluster AP.
Iron Gods is totally out of that comfort zone and was a big success seemingly.
Just look at the many fans of kitsune and tengu and similar asian themed things.
I also want to add that the people not working for Paizo, but citing sales figures don´t have any data there either, but rely on hearsay and some online shops perhaps.
Also, Paizo broke comfort zones of "traditional" stuff on a whole different level, what is cool for me. There´s something left to be done though and recently there was some very good effort into the Garund/Mwangi south direction, seemingly well received.
Let´s just say it´s about time Paizo makes some more statements there into the eastern direction as well as southwest. I bet that would be well received too. It´s a matter of presentation.
I can also say that i had people comment on the obvious thing Paizo does, not in a negative way, but wondering why it is so stressed and some other things totaly aren´t.
So much to the "traditional pseudo-European-medieval fantasy comfort zone".
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Paizo is not making its decisions based upon whimsy.
Dragon Empires, for whatever reason (I mean, I liked it) has not thrown up numbers they're comfortable with.
The effort at southern Garund, so far as I know, consists mostly of a single section of a book detailing lots of different bits and pieces of Golarion- it also includes bits of Iblydos, on Arcadia, on Tian Xia, on Vudra... I have little doubt that Distant Shores sold well, since its appeal was broad- no matter WHAT part of "not-Inner Sea" you might have been interested in, it had something- but I do not know that it sold well.Perhaps it did, and perhaps future exploration of the wider world of Golarion will take this form- bits and pieces from all over in a sort of buffet.
tl;dr: Once again, I really doubt that the sales figures on Dragon Empires would be cited if they weren't, you know, low enough to constitute an actual risk.
Paizo is not making its decisions based upon whimsy.I totally read that as whiskey at first.
Yes, well, I can be certain of the one, but... ;)
Well, i can imagine gifting a good bottle of whisky for a good Tian Xia book :)
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Agree with what others have said here. Understand the need for Paizo to test the waters, but it's a shame if Jade Regent was the means they used to do this, given only the second half of the story was in Tian Xia. I'd love to play a campaign with everybody playing fully Tian Xia characters from level 1... wandering ronin, drunken masters, Irori monks, geisha sorcerers, kitsune tricksters, over ambitious kaiju hunters, spirit forest druids, yokai summoners, etc.
I think one of Pathfinder's biggest strengths is the diversity of its world, so I'm 100% in favour of anything that helps this to grow
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Chiming in. There's the adaptability issue to consider too. Something like Carrion Crown can be adapted into a lot of settings and campaigns. There's a high value in the AP in terms of what a DM might extract out of it to cram into their own adventure. The moment you explicitly apply a heavily themed template onto an AP, you make more work for DMs to wedge it (or part of it) into their ongoing games. Just a factor.
All APs are themed somehow and a Tian Xia horror setting would work just as well. Maybe even better because there´s more unknown elements to it.
Carrion Crown gothic is a bit old by now and was already treated quite often.
I played in a very successful Kingmaker campaign though that was settled in a desert/arabian themed setting. Was a lot of fun and also a lot more interesting than the ever same european setting.
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Vocal support on forums does not equal demand for sales. Paizo did Iron Gods not because I wanted it very much, they did it because they dipped the toe into SciFi territory with Distant Worlds and Reign of Winter and sales must have been good enough to warrant a full AP.
Matter of fact, I remember when Paizo did Art of Dragon Magaizne because A LOT of people on the boards asked for an art book VERY LOUDLY and made SOLEMN STATEMENTS that this is going to a MASSIVE HIT.
And so Paizo published it. It's a great book of excellent quality. It's now discounted from 35 USD to 4 USD and even despite that it still refuses to sell, 9 years later.
Thanks for the note about the art book. Didn't even realize it existed, had to buy one.
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As I said in another thread, I'd totally be into Vudran material. East Asian/Tian Xia material, though? Zero interest from me (and the Inner Sea bits of Jade Regent were probably more interesting to me than the Tian Xia bits, unsurprisingly).
I'd also be really into some Southern Garund adventure material, and some Keleshite stuff. However, if East Asian-themed can't sell, I suspect the stuff I will sell even less.