Around the mid/high levels, you might encounter enemies that have a heavy melee chassis (d10 or d12 HD, full BAB, larger than medium size, several attacks, high AC, DR) that also have spellcasting, like dragons and outsiders. Sometimes they have Antimagic Field, a 6th level spell that can only be countered by a 9th level spell. How do you beat them if they cast antimagic field and start ploughing into your party with their vastly superior stats, while your party's stat-boosting magic items and casters' spells get nullified? Aside from having an optimized archer that doesn't get beelined, I can't think of anything. I'd love some advice on how conventional melee character or a caster can contribute against one these things.
PS: Yes, I'm aware of the irony that I can't think of a way that a caster can contribute against something.
Dragon can Target only 1 person at time if whole party is spread.
Summon monster spell : summon something with Range attack and keep it at distance.
At Summon Nature's Ally 7, a Zuishin (summoned with a Ring of Natural Attunement) has +1 holy composite longbow +20/+15/+10 (1d8+5/x3). At Summon Monster 7, 1d3 Erinyes have +1 flaming composite longbow +14/+14/+9 (1d8+6/×3 plus 1d6 fire). Boss monster outsiders and dragons have AC, HP, and DR that laugh at those numbers.
Other options depend mostly on your party composition and lvl
if you provide more info i can give more Advices :)
Level 14. We fought a CR 17 ancient copper dragon. DR 15/magic, 39 AC, 310 HP.
Party composition:Shaman, useless because magic. Summoned a Zuishin to no use.
Inquisitor, useless because all of his combat abilities are supernatural.
Sorcerer, useless because magic.
Sorcerer cohort, useless because magic.
Cleric cohort, useless because magic.
Brawler, could only hit with his first attacks on a natural 17 or higher. CMD was too high to land any Dirty Tricks.
Vampire daring champion cavalier. The only reason we survived this fight was because the cavalier was a vampire and thus had a ton of free stat boosts, free feats, HP based off charisma, fast healing, and Challenge/Precise Strike.
The dragon cordially decided to fight the cavalier until it died, because the fight had already gone on for 5 rounds of the rest of us getting helplessly destroyed, and our GM could see the situation was getting silly.
(most common trick is wizard with triangle hat on his head that is actually a shrinked stone "prison" for himself to lost Line of Effect from Antimagic Field then cast teleport )
I'm asking for ways to defeat these types of enemies. Not just escape them, solo, while leaving the rest of your party in the dust.
I'm frustrated that our only answer to this fight was "throw a cavalier with a +2 template at it."
I'm pretty certain there has been an FAQ that for larger creatures, the field extends 10 ft from all sides of their body.
I'm pretty certain there has been an FAQ that for larger creatures, the field extends 10 ft from all sides of their body.
There absolutely was. A drgaon that casts antimagic field is completely surrounded and protected by antimagic.
well your best bet then are conjuration (creation) spells
:
Caustic Eruption
Acid Arrow
Acid Fog
Acid Spray
Corrosive Consumption
Geyser
Conjuration creation spells only work if their duration is instantaneous. For instance, Acid Fog wont work because it has a duration of rounds per level.
Depending on the dragon's age/size the proper tactics should by flying and using it's breath weapon (after having cast antimagic field) to kill any archers (and anyone nearby) and then basically killing the rest of the party by attrition.
A smart dragon should not stick around and let himself be killed by a party using repeated attacks. They would likely prefer hit and run tactics. Killing individual party members at a time, unless there is a specific reason why they can't just leave a place. Survival would need to be a secondary priority to something to convince a dragon to stay and fight rather than risk the McGuffin being captured.
Force spells like Force Cage and Force Wall can help contain the dragon and are not affected by antimagic field.
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The Dragon was clearly not smart as OP stated 1 Vampire daring champion cavalier. owned him
Yes, the GM played the dragon stupidly, I think on purpose to allow the players to win. It honestly probably should have been a TPK if played properly.
Most players and groups that I've encountered really can't come up with a way to counter a dragon in an antimagic field because of their generally superior stats (without the aid of magic).
It makes dragons that are of the age to cast antimagic field true terrors (as they should be) but no one has really come up with good tactics on how to best them.
The best advice I have is don't fight them on their terms.
Dragons want big open space where they can fly and avoid melee attacks, and can quickly and easily pick off archers and any casters that might be able to sneak some attacks past the antimagic field.
But if you can teleport away, or retreat into cover or into an interior area you can force the dragon to fight on your terms.
Go read Tcuker's Kobolds, and realize that the same sort of tactics the Kobolds use (as lower CR creatures) can be very effective at killing off much higher level PC characters that should slaughter them in a straight up fight. You need to develop similar tactics so that a dragon can't just have the fight his way.
If he drops his antimagic field you just have to have actions prepared to take him out quickly. Remember that in order to cast antimagic field again he has to cast. Readied actions to attack him while casting can prevent him from successfully casting. He has to make a concentration check equal to 10 + damage dealt + spell level.
agree(dragon should be scary ) , and i deleted my last post cuz it sound bit... hostile toward DM
btw Breath Weapon (Su) < it should not work in Antymagic Field as well i think
Ah, that is a fair point actually. He can't use his breath weapon while in the antimagic field.
well even without his Flame Throwe he's Huge Freaking Dragon with DR15 and antymagic field :P
Yeah, it's definitely a hard fight. I actually like that fact. Before that ruling regarding antimagic field dragons were actually a little too easy to kill because a spell caster could basically disable it with magic before it could do much (as antimagic field didn't protect the whole body).
Now, if you can catch a dragon unaware before it can cast AMF then you have a much better chance of being able to successfully fight it. But if it's coming after you and prepared it should be a challenge (in my opinion).
well even without his Flame Throwe he's Huge Freaking Dragon with DR15 and antymagic field :P
Dragon DR is Su, so it doesn't work in an antimagic field. If you can hit him without magical help you can hurt him at least.
C)
you can always try useForce spells like Force Cage and Force Wall to trap him
Forcecage only works if the dragon fits inside a 20' cube. Maybe if he's young and had his tail chopped off in a portcullis accident.
Wall of Force is only going to be helpful if you're fighting in a fairly narrow cavern or wide tunnel.
Sometimes they have Antimagic Field, a 6th level spell that can only be countered by a 9th level spell.
Note that most dragons can't cast this spell until they are of a CR where you would be expected to have access to 9th level spells.
To be fair, Mage's Disjunction works around 1-in-5 times at the level you can start using it and has the unfortunate side-effect of potentially shutting down your own gear every time you cast it (or worse, flat-out destroying it). And that's the only spell that realistically works - Aroden's Spellbane could do the trick but all the dragon has to do is cast Aroden's Spellbane and forbid Aroden's Spellbane, and then yours doesn't work anymore (unless you picked that spell too in which case they just cancel out? It's weird).
The worst part is that even if your Disjunction works the dragon can just cast it again cause, you know, sorcerer.
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A strategy a friend used in a game to great effect was shrink object and overland Flight/Fly. It requires some prep time of course as its not a Random Encounter Ancient Dragon sort of strategy but we had planned to fight the dragon and it worked.
Down on the ground. The Fighter and Paladin did their best to antagonize the dragon and tank as best as they could while the caster and cleric buffed defences and healed from safety of invisibilty. Wizard had bag filled with tiny stones having Shink Object on boulders from the mountain. At 400ft(i think is the distance) falling objects do double damage. 10-20 rocks later and Antimagic dispelling the effect of the Shrink Object spell, the dragon was no more. The DM didn't argue that this strategy seemed legit if anyone sees a flaw feel free to point it out, but this had worked for us.
Anti-magic field kept it from Breath weapon and it had only two targets to see without any abilities to see with true seeing. Not much else the dragon could do but fight the two melee's in his face since range would have been 1d4 turns of getting pelted by arrows while the other 3 hid from sight. Other than run, but why would a red dragon ever run from something he doesnt perceive as a threat? Rules say unless it falls from higher than 500 ft, things falling cant cast spells and hit the ground same round. Dragon didn't have any other choices but to get hit.
...i see big flaw here, in your example your dragon just sit on his ass and don't move from his place
why rly,rly,rly inteligent dragon just sit there with your fighter and Paladin ? Tea Time or something :D ? normal dragon would just fly by Flame Throw your little party
Can't Flyb-By Flamethrow when you've got an antimagic field on you. After all, it's a supernatural ability.
Dragon saw all party, dragons initative no where near capable of outspeeding most of the party, maybe if dragon had rolled better but on average that wont happen to much. So when he saw 2 people go inivisible without potions and obvious as day cleric go invisible with one, the dragon made a safe assumption magic was involved. I mean, if the dragon didn't have the anti-magic field it wouldn't have been a hassle, the pali could have done the job himself
Dragon was going to fly after a person he couldn't see? I know i said to find a flaw but you seem to be kind of reaching. And Fly had 60ft which double move is 120 to reach the distance he needed sooner to drop off the boulders. Blindsense allowed him the feeling of a presense and a perception check, but the dragon had no real way of keeping track of an invisible wizard that to its knowledge(since it couldn't metagame a bag of shrunken boulders) was no threat with anti magic field up. So now I ask you, why would an CE dragon not attack two people it could clearly see and beat on to its heart content to chase down 3 individuals it couldn't see, and it figured were 0 threat.
Even if our wizard had only gone half the distance, and free action dumped the bag. 200ft of falling boulders is 20d6 falling damage, with 20 boulders. DR 15 or not, that was going to hurt.
Invisibility grants +20 stealth if you move, plus the stealth roll + the bonus for distance. And again, how was he going to chase something he couldn't see?
Did I say dragon charged? Dragon only had to hover out of reach of the 2 people who could see and wailed on them, all the fighter and paladin did was total defence and keep moving so the anti magic field wouldn't prevent them from being healed. Clearly a trap comes from your foreknowledge of what was going to happen when the dragon used anti-magic field has a counter to spellcasters he couldn't see. Sorry you feel my GM's an idiot but the strategy worked and am sort of grateful he hadn't try to metagame the "obvious trap" to chase a wizard he couldnt see.
why you assume that dragon is dumb and he will go clearly as you like it to ?
2 People from part of 4 just vanished Its clearly trap , why should i charge like an idiot ?
"Dragon saw all party"
Why would you assume that a dragon would care it's a trap? Or that it would clearly think that it is one? From what he saw and what was implied, two of these petty lesser beings were running away. Presumably because that's what they usually do because of your magnificence. Yes, it may be a trap, but what are they going to do to you when you're in your antimagic field?!
@baja1000
That seems like a legitimate tactic (in terms of rules) that worked well on the day, well done.
Did anyone get to say: "rocks fall you die!" ?
He saw two casters vanish and put up anti-magic field. What else would a dragon do to find two invisible casters after that without having knowledge of the plan to use giant rocks? Or for that matter, waste every turn trying to hunt down invisible characters and just allow the paladin free reign to smite with arrows? We planned for our two tanks to outlast 3-4 lousy turns of the dragon taking out 'weaklings' while our casters did their best to beat the dragon. Theres common sense and then there is "I must do everything in my power to find that wizard." Because hey, what if it had been the cleric? Is the dragon going to go in two seperate directions?
@baja1000
That seems like a legitimate tactic (in terms of rules) that worked well on the day, well done.
Did anyone get to say: "rocks fall you die!" ?
Sadly, no one liners, just a lot of cautious looks to the DM. One downside of this plan was while the dragon took the brunt of this damage, our fighter and pali also had to eat it by being so close to an avalanche. But they were ok with dying and being raised for the V
Our saving grace was the dragon going last so I casters didn't get gobbled up turn one or caught in the anti magic field. I assume thats why they make it only 10ft radius so that you can avoid getting mad rushed. Both went invisible and both moved as fast as they could away from what we labeled "The F-zone". Like I said though, this was all prepared in advanced before fighting the dragon, had he come for us, this wouldnt have worked at all.
Why waste time and get pelted by Smite arrows looking for 2 casters you can't see and you have no choice but to assume are powerless with anti-magic field. Hover 15ft off ground to wail on people who cant strike back. Casters had 45+ stealth checks before d20 roll. I don't remembered what they rolled, but dragon didn't see them. 60ft blind sense told him only one was still near but hiding.
You fail to tell me how the dragon was going to chase down the wizard when he couldn't tell which direction to go after. You cant just move the dragon up to the wizard without the necessary perception check, which invisibility helped with.
turn 1. Wizard Invisibilty, move, Dragon anti magic, move.
turn 2. Wizard Fly, and move, dragon ???
Why waste turns moving and hoping for wizard? Especially when Paladin, safe from the antimagic field, could just drop D8+20 damage per arrow safely thanks to smite. Paladin was a backup we had if he was ignored.
Dragon didn't cast anti-magic field. Great then, let disintegrate and cloudkill do business then. Then again, its gonna be hard to find a Gargantuan creater with an 8 dex. Might of been if our party wasn't semi intelligent had everyone had perception and a cleric. And fyi, why even bring up mislead. The post asked how to counter anti-magic and i brought up a story about a time we did that thing. Had the dragon used Mislead, then i would have never brought up the story. Your point is moot sir, good day