Can a human take "Racial Heritage(Kitsune)" and then benefit from "Fox Shape"?

[Daniel Myhre]

Yeah, it just sounds FUN. And I think you'd still be able to use Gather Power, it'd be your tails waving around. Probably launching the kinetic blasts from your tails. Or maybe from your mouth like a bijuu in Naruto?

[Johnny_Devo]

Quote:

By RAW it works, due to wording of a feat that didn't take into consideration the future publishing of overlapping material (Kitsune in the ARG) in conjunction with the racial heritage feat.

Just wanted to point out that Racial Heritage was printed in APG (advanced players guide) copyright 2010.

Fox shape was printed in the Pathfinder Player Companion: Dragon Empires Primer, copyright 2011.

So I'm not quite understanding how there's some kind of future proofing that didn't happen. Could you elaborate on that?

[Lord Twitchiopolis]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

PFS actually SPECIFICALLY bars Racial Heritage to race feats in Advanced Race Guide.

I have been unable to find the specific ban to race feats in the Advanced Race Guide.

Additional Resource Page. The wording limits feats and Archtypes from ARG to CHARACTERS of the selected race, not ones who count as such. here's a link to the ruling WAAAAAY back when.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

In fact, in PFS you CAN take Racial Heritage(Kitsune), you just can't get kitsune specific feats (since specific rulings regarding the source books of those feats).

It's counter-intuitive. It's one thing to block people from using Racial Heritage to take Goblin Feats, but Kitsune are PFS legal.

Racial heritage is legal, and nothing about it AS IT STANDS ALONE is modified. You may therefore take Racial Heritage with ANY Humanoid Race.

HOWEVER.
To get a feat in PFS it MUST be PFS legal and MUST be PFS legal for your character.
Hence, while it may seem counter intuitive, in PFS you CANNOT qualify for those Kitsune feats from the Primer unless you are one. Additionally, you cannot qualify for those Hobgoblin feats because those feats are not legal for play.
Goblins are PFS legal, with boon.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

I had this conversation with Brock before.

Would you please quote, cite, and link to the Official Rules Post Brock made on this matter?

For the ruling on Racial Heritage within PFS, I have provided a link in the first part of this post, but Here it is again

Additionally, much of what I am referring to was in a conversation between me and Brock at DragonCon three years ago, so no, I cannot link a real life conversation.
The rulings given to Ben Dan and Princess Animal Parts (as stated in a previous post on this thread) are direct and specific rulings strait from the boss himself.

[Scott Wilhelm]

thaX wrote:

For the poster that asked, a Tibbit is a race that was in the Dragon Annual that is a halfling like race that can turn into a house cat at will.

Thank you.

[Entryhazard]

Grey_Mage wrote:

Humans won't acquire the shapeshifter subtype, like kitsune. Although rarely used anyway the shapechanger subtype is far more common than humanoid(kitsune) where bane and favored enemies are concerned.

You're forgetting that Humanoid(Human) is THE most common creature type in encounters, so realistically Human-Bane and Favored Enemy(Human) should be more common than anything against Shapeshifters.

[Byakko]

Lord Twitch, that link does provide a very interesting response by a developer. I wonder if the following is at all official:

Quote:

Mark Moreland, Developer:

Quote:

Elf Blood: Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.

Note that qualifying for a feat or learning a spell is not an effect. The elf blood racial trait applies to things like the bane special weapon property or a ranger's favored enemy class feature.

If a feat or other character option has a prerequisite of "elf subtype", then a half-elf would qualify, as half-elves have both the human and elf subtypes. If, however, something requires a character to be of the elf race, then only elves need apply, as half-elves aren't elves, rather half-elves.

Quote:

Racial Heritage: Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race.

This does of course, seem to conflict with the second sentence of Racial Heritage: "For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on."

But as it's just an example...

[Scott Wilhelm]

Daniel Myhre wrote:

Thus why the additional resources doc under Advanced Race Guide says they "are only available for characters of the associated race."

But Racial Heritage says you count as one of those races.

Racial Heritage wrote:

You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race.... for the purpose of taking traits, feats

Specific trumps general. It is generally true that you can only take Kitsune Feats if you are a Kitsune. It is specifically true that a Human Character can take the Racial Heritage Feat to count as a Kitsune.

So, yes, the Additional Resources section of Paizo's PFS page does say that ARG Racial Feats are only available to members of that Race, but remember that the Racial Heritage Feat is allowed, and Paizo Publishing is responsible for knowing that you can use Racial Heritage for counting as one of those Races. We have to assume that they are aware of what the Racial Heritage Feat says and that they are aware that specific trumps general. What you are describing requires a caveat upon the Racial Heritage Feat, and I am not aware of such a caveat being officially posted.

[Daniel Myhre]

In this case Scott PFS House Rule trumps everything. The PFS house rule is that your character's actual race must match the feat's prereq if it's from the Advanced Race Guide. Here's the chain of what's happening here

Feat says "Only a kitsune can take this feat"

Racial heritage says "you are treated as a kitsune so go ahead and take that feat"

Then the PFS house rule says "This is Pathfinder Society Organized Play, and we decided only kitsune can take the kitsune feats from this book. Your listed race is Human so you can't take the feat, but Kitsune feats from other books may be available on a book by book basis because of Racial Heritage"

[Scott Wilhelm]

thaX wrote:

Thunder and Fang.... Basically, the feat is used in concert with the Earthbreaker and Klar, as the description text tells you. Because there is a period instead of a comma in a particular point in the feat rules, a lot of players have tried to make the weapon into something that it is not.

It is a Two Handed Weapon, no matter how you are able to use it otherwise.

Thunder and Fang does allow you to use Earthbreaker with any other weapon as though Earthbreaker were a 1 handed weapon.

Thunder and Fang wrote:

Benefit: You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon.

That's not just a matter of period vs. comma: that's the first sentence in the Feat description!

The whole point of Feats is that they give you special abilities. The ability to use the Earthbreaker as though it were a 1-handed weapon is a special ability granted by T&F.

My point is that Thunder and Fang is a poor example to argue a point in a Kitsune Fox Shape Thread. Partly because you are not clearly correct about it, but debating about T&F takes us off on a tangent from the focus of this thread. But if you link to one of the Thunder and Fang threads, I suspect I would be happy to argue with you about it there.

[Daniel Myhre]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

thaX wrote:

Thunder and Fang.... Basically, the feat is used in concert with the Earthbreaker and Klar, as the description text tells you. Because there is a period instead of a comma in a particular point in the feat rules, a lot of players have tried to make the weapon into something that it is not.

It is a Two Handed Weapon, no matter how you are able to use it otherwise.

Thunder and Fang does allow you to use Earthbreaker with any other weapon as though Earthbreaker were a 1 handed weapon.

Thunder and Fang wrote:

Benefit: You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon.

That's not just a matter of period vs. comma: that's the first sentence in the Feat description!

The whole point of Feats is that they give you special abilities. The ability to use the Earthbreaker as though it were a 1-handed weapon is a special ability granted by T&F.

My point is that Thunder and Fang is a poor example to argue a point in a Kitsune Fox Shape Thread. Partly because you are not clearly correct about it, but debating about T&F takes us off on a tangent from the focus of this thread. But if you link to one of the Thunder and Fang threads, I suspect I would be happy to argue with you about it there.

Difference between a period and a comma:

"Let's go eat, Grandma."
vs
"Let's go eat Grandma."

Here adding a comma changes the entire meaning of the sentence.

"You can use an earth breaker, as though it were a one-handed weapon."
vs
"You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon."

Hmm, no real change in the meaning of the sentence, just in the flow of the sentence.

And Scott's right, that is a bad example to use in this thread if trying to prove a point.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Crimeo wrote:

Quote:

With Fox Shape, the fact that the character is supposed to already have a second form in order to gain a third is an intended circumstance of being a Kitsune. If you take this as a human (with Racial Heritage), you still need the second form, else you don't have the bases to perform the third. But it isn't in the rules text, it refers to it in the description. (Other Forms)

It's not based on a second form. It says nothing of the sort.

No, it isn't, because no it doesn't. With Tail Terror, it does.

Tail Terror wrote:

Benefit: You can make a tail slap attack with your tail.

See, Tail Terror doesn't say it gives you a tail, just that you can use any tail you might happen to have to attack with.

Fox Shape wrote:

Benefit: You can take the form of a fox

It doesn't say, "You can use your shapeshifting ability to turn into a fox now, too." It just flat-out gives you the ability to take the form of a fox, and no prior shape-shifting ability is either implied in the Benefits nor listed in the Prerequisites.

[Daniel Yeatman]

It's kind of funny to see such a long thread arise from such a simple logical ruling.

[Cuuniyevo]

@Scott Wilhelm:

Daniel Myhre already answered it and Lord Twitchiopolis provided the link to Michael Brock's ruling on the matter, but for ease of future-readers, here's the quote…

Michael Brock wrote:

Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race. Racial equipment and magic items can be purchased and used by any race as long as the specific item permits it (for example, only halflings can purchase and use solidsmoke pipeweed).

So, no, a half-orc or half-elf may not take a human-only feat.

PFS does not follow normal Pathfinder rules in many cases, and this is one of them.

Grey_Mage wrote:

Why haven't the pro-human fox shifters simply stated what the real intent of their build is? I ask because most Kitsune I play with simply stay in human form anyway choosing to appear human. Between the CHA bonus of Kitsune with +10 disguise granted by their shapechange ability they simply are humans except from all but the most observant.

I'd like to respond to this even though I have not been particularly active in the thread so far (read every post though!).

I'll first note that I am and have been the GM in every Pathfinder game I've played.

Spoiler:

For anyone who remembers my old thread asking for advice on a character build, life happens and that campaign hasn't actually started yet.

I am in support of Racial Heritage allowing Fox Shape because:

1.) Taking it at face-value, it appears to me that it does so. I understand how some people interpret it differently but that leads me to the next reason…

2.) I don't believe it hurts anything. Without an example of how it could unduly harm the game, why would I overrule my first instincts of it being legal? With just the right build, any race can be over-powered and I see far more potential from other sources than from this combination, especially considering the cost. Sure, Beast Shape II is a level 4 spell, but with this feat you're limited to just one of the weaker forms instead of the dozens of options that someone casting the actual spell can pick from to perfectly suit their situation.

3.) It seems like fun. I can easily imagine one of my players wanting to do something along these lines or even using it for NPC's myself. I have no specific build in mind but the flavor is appealing.

4.) It seems logical. If I ever get around to running the Jade Regent AP (or almost any campaign set near Tian Xia), I could easily justify having some half- or quarter-kitsune characters, some of which might eventually show signs of their heritage.

@anyone and everyone:
Please try to keep it civil. Also, if you haven't already, hit the FAQ button on the OP. =]

[Kalindlara]

I agree wholeheartedly. ^_^

[Scott Wilhelm]

Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

Additional Resource Page. The wording limits feats and Archtypes from ARG to CHARACTERS of the selected race, not ones who count as such

Okay, but I really don't think that page specifically bars taking Racial Heritage to qualify for those Feats. Even were I to concede that that page did disallow Fox Shape via Racial Heritage, Racial Heritage was not mentioned specifically at all.

Your citation of Mike Brock is interesting--thank you--but it's not entirely to the point. He was talking about Half Orcs and Half Elves, and we are talking about the Racial Heritage Feat. He seems to be saying that Half Elves and Half Orcs may not take the Racial Heritage Feat. I don't think that makes your point, but it is relevant to this thread, and it is an interesting point.

[alexd1976]

Beowulf Adrinor wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

No.

Fox shape is not the ability to turn into a fox. Its an alteration of the change shape ability that a kitsune already has. Without having that change shape ability to start with, the feat does nothing.

We also give you the ability to take feats that you can't use all the time either situationally or because you lack an ability or some other key component. You can take Combat Casting (it has no prerequisites) even if you don't have any spells or spell-like abilities. Logic assumes you will not if it is no use to you. Just because you have Deadly Aim, we don't assume you always have the ability to make ranged attacks.

Fox Shape (Kitsune)

You can change into a fox in addition to your other forms.

Prerequisites: Cha 13, base attack bonus +3, kitsune.

Special: A kitsune may select this feat any time she would gain a feat.

Benefit: You can take the form of a fox whose appearance is static and cannot be changed each time you assume this form. Your bite attack’s damage is reduced to 1d3 points of damage on a hit, but you gain a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to appear as a fox. Changing from kitsune to fox shape is a standard action. This ability otherwise functions as beast shape II, and your ability scores change accordingly.

This power would give a human with Racial Heritage Kitsune the power to turn into a fox and back as a standard action lasting 1 min per level as this feat acts as the Beast Shape 2 spell that only allows the fox shape. This ruling comes from the lead game designers.

Since Change Shape isn't mentioned in the feat (as a requirement, or as an ability that is granted) the duration defaults to the spell's duration.

Claiming a longer duration than this would require the claimant to provide evidence proving their point.

[Johnny_Devo]

alexd1976 wrote:

Beowulf Adrinor wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

No.

Fox shape is not the ability to turn into a fox. Its an alteration of the change shape ability that a kitsune already has. Without having that change shape ability to start with, the feat does nothing.

We also give you the ability to take feats that you can't use all the time either situationally or because you lack an ability or some other key component. You can take Combat Casting (it has no prerequisites) even if you don't have any spells or spell-like abilities. Logic assumes you will not if it is no use to you. Just because you have Deadly Aim, we don't assume you always have the ability to make ranged attacks.

Fox Shape (Kitsune)

You can change into a fox in addition to your other forms.

Prerequisites: Cha 13, base attack bonus +3, kitsune.

Special: A kitsune may select this feat any time she would gain a feat.

Benefit: You can take the form of a fox whose appearance is static and cannot be changed each time you assume this form. Your bite attack’s damage is reduced to 1d3 points of damage on a hit, but you gain a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to appear as a fox. Changing from kitsune to fox shape is a standard action. This ability otherwise functions as beast shape II, and your ability scores change accordingly.

This power would give a human with Racial Heritage Kitsune the power to turn into a fox and back as a standard action lasting 1 min per level as this feat acts as the Beast Shape 2 spell that only allows the fox shape. This ruling comes from the lead game designers.

Since Change Shape isn't mentioned in the feat (as a requirement, or as an ability that is granted) the duration defaults to the spell's duration.

Claiming a longer duration than this would require the claimant to provide evidence proving their point.

Wait I'm a little confused. Where is anyone claiming a longer duration?

[alexd1976]

I'm on the fence with this feat combo to be honest...

Even assuming unlimited uses, if the duration is minutes/level... it IS only a single form...

I can't honestly think of a build I would use this with.

If it WAS unlimited duration as well, I would probably consider it...

I don't believe that this combo was intended to work with humans, I do think the intention was to modify a Kitsune's ability only...

Despite the wording of the feat as it is, I don't really think it should work with non-kitsune unless they have an existing ability granting them alternate forms.

Just my opinion, I don't need anyone to quote the feat again, I've read it several times.

[Kalindlara]

To be fair, I doubt any of the racial feats were written with serious consideration of Racial Heritage compatibility in mind.

I'm guessing most writers were just like "This will be a cool thing for (race)!" ^_^

[Johnny_Devo]

alexd1976 wrote:

I'm on the fence with this feat combo to be honest...

Even assuming unlimited uses, if the duration is minutes/level... it IS only a single form...

I can't honestly think of a build I would use this with.

If it WAS unlimited duration as well, I would probably consider it...

I don't believe that this combo was intended to work with humans, I do think the intention was to modify a Kitsune's ability only...

Despite the wording of the feat as it is, I don't really think it should work with non-kitsune unless they have an existing ability granting them alternate forms.

Just my opinion, I don't need anyone to quote the feat again, I've read it several times.

I understand if you believe that it shouldn't work, but what I've been trying to argue is if, by the rules as written, it works by itself. Hell, I'm even of the opinion that the intention is to modify change shape, and thus I wouldn't be surprised or offended if they errata'd the feat against my side of the argument. But belief of intent is not what I'm arguing. Indeed, it's impossible for us to truly know the intent.

[Crimeo]

Wait what happens if you cast the same spell twice overlapping, does the second one fizzle completely, or does the timer reset at 0 i.e. second one replaces and first fizzles?

If the latter, then you could have infinite duration with no gaps as long as you spend a standard action less than 7 minutes in intervals.

[Johnny_Devo]

Crimeo wrote:

Wait what happens if you cast the same spell twice overlapping, does the second one fizzle completely, or does the timer reset at 0 i.e. second one replaces and first fizzles?

If the latter, then you could have infinite duration with no gaps as long as you spend a standard action less than 7 minutes in intervals.

I believe there's some sort of rule about the buffs from the same source, however this is irrelevant in this case because "changing from kitsune(read as human via racial heritage) to fox shape is a standard action".

So you can't use the ability while in fox shape, so you either have to quickly dismiss it then re-use it or wait for it to expire, then re-use it.

[DM Beckett]

Daniel Myhre wrote:

DM Beckett wrote:

Daniel Myhre wrote:

Except for Pathfinder Society Organized Play no, racial heritage does NOT let you take feats, racial traits, and racial talents from another race that are in the Advanced Race Guide. Thus why the additional resources doc under Advanced Race Guide says they "are only available for characters of the associated race." A human with racial heritage: kitsune could take the Kitsune Trickster archtype in PFS play, but not the feats.

For NON-PFS games it's perfectly legal, unless the gm says it isn't.

Citation please.

I am not seeing a conflict in the rules here.

_____ is only allowed for "A".

Racial Heritage makes you into "A".

Therefore, Racial Heritage allows you to take ______ only allowed for "A".

It's also worth noting that the "rule" for the Advanced Races Guide only applies to the Advanced Races Guide, and Fox Form is not from that book. It is not a blanket statement for each and every single Racial Trait, Feat, Archetype, etc. . . Otherwise it wouldn't be a note under the Advanced Race Guide and instead would be found in the Guide to PFS as a universal rule that applied to everything.

The entry in the additional resources doc IS the citation. It's saying that only the specific race can take the racial feats and traits in Advanced Race Guide in PFS. This line is probably there precisely because of racial heritage.

And as I'd said, I'm unsure of exactly what the Additional Resource Document means for dragon empires primer. Does it mean only someone who's character race is kitsune can take the feats? Does it mean only kitsune and someone with racial heritage: kitsune can take them? I'm not sure, it's a little ambiguous on this.

Michael Brock wrote:

It does not apply to all previous rulings in other books. This applies to the Advanced Race Guide. You can find my official ruling in the Additional Resources.

Sorry, posting from phone or Id add a bit more explanation.

[James Risner]

Johnny_Devo wrote:

strict sentence-by-sentence analysis has caused me to be of the opinion that it works. And that is the definition of RAW.

Actually, the definition of RAW is Rules As Written interpreted by the GM.

So one person's strict sentence-by-sentence analysis doesn't always match another.

Daniel Myhre wrote:

I can't speak for anyone else, but I AM looking at the issue from a GM point of view.

If you read the rules and conclude Humans can turn into foxes, I stand behind your interpretation.

Conversely, if you read it and assert Humans can't become foxes, I also stand behind your interpretation.

[James Risner]

Daniel Myhre wrote:

And Scott's right, that is a bad example to use in this thread if trying to prove a point.

Depends on the point. The last Earthbreaker in both hands thread was well over 1100 posts. If the point is "a thread goes for 1k posts", then Earthbreaker in one hand is a perfect point.

[Daniel Myhre]

So as a form of wrapping things up (hopefully)

For a home game: Yes, racial heritage would let a human take Fox Shape and turn into a fox for one minute per character level. But keep in mind that not all game masters will allow it, so ask first.

For Pathfinder Society: Yes, you can take fox shape and turn into a fox if you have Racial heritage: Kitsune.

And as an aside, I'm still unaware of what certain people like BigNorseWolf and his/her many alias he/she posts as think Racial Heritage is used for, if it can't grant access to things normally only allowed to another race.

[kyrt-ryder]

alexd1976 wrote:

I'm on the fence with this feat combo to be honest...

Even assuming unlimited uses, if the duration is minutes/level... it IS only a single form...

I can't honestly think of a build I would use this with.

If it WAS unlimited duration as well, I would probably consider it...

I don't believe that this combo was intended to work with humans, I do think the intention was to modify a Kitsune's ability only...

Despite the wording of the feat as it is, I don't really think it should work with non-kitsune unless they have an existing ability granting them alternate forms.

Just my opinion, I don't need anyone to quote the feat again, I've read it several times.

It's not a limited duration. The feat would have to list a caster level in order to provide a limited duration.

The only reason the spell is referenced is highlighting the limitations of the form and clearly noting you use the polymorph rules to determine stats of the fox form.

You are not, I repeat, not casting the spell in any way. The spell is simply there for clarification of the form.

[James Risner]

Daniel Myhre wrote:

So as a form of wrapping things up (hopefully)

I'll rewrite then to match my understanding of the issues at hand.

---

For a home game: Yes, racial heritage may or may not let a human take Fox Shape and turn into a fox for a limited duration or indefinite duration so ask your game masters first.

This is the middle ground answer, one that both sides should accept. Whether or not they do accept it, I can't say.

---

For Pathfinder Society: No, you can take fox shape and turn into a fox unless you are a kitsune character.

I understand this thread seems to insert doubt into whether or not Racial Heritage evades the language in the Additional Resources by making you "that race", but there shouldn't be doubt.

I suspect all VC/VL and 4/5 star GM's would reject any interpretation of the Additional Resources document to allow non-Kitsune to take feats in ARG or Dragon Empire.

[alexd1976]

Crimeo wrote:

Wait what happens if you cast the same spell twice overlapping, does the second one fizzle completely, or does the timer reset at 0 i.e. second one replaces and first fizzles?

If the latter, then you could have infinite duration with no gaps as long as you spend a standard action less than 7 minutes in intervals.

The new spell takes over. Duration begins again at time of casting.

Kinda like a ring of invisibility, as long as you spend the action to activate it again, you essentially reset the duration.

correction, you must turn back to human first.

[DM Beckett]

James Risner wrote:

For Pathfinder Society: No, you can take fox shape and turn into a fox unless you are a kitsune character.

I understand this thread seems to insert doubt into whether or not Racial Heritage evades the language in the Additional Resources by making you "that race", but there shouldn't be doubt.

I suspect all VC/VL and 4/5 star GM's would reject any interpretation of the Additional Resources document to allow non-Kitsune to take feats in ARG or Dragon Empire.

I think its been pretty clearly shown that its not even really debatable is PFS, and I'm not really sure why you would think that all VC/VLs or 4+ Star GMs would even deny this based on the pretty significant evidence to indicate it would. Granted Im only a poor 3 Starrer for the next few days/weeks, but I guess I just don't see how that is suppossed to matter.

I mean I guess they could rule that Racial Heritage is not legal anymore, or make a statement along the lines of "Despite what is actually written, you can not actually use Racial Heritage to become another type of Humanoid like the Feat says."

But then, what exactly does the Feat do?

[Daniel Myhre]

The ambiguity to me comes from the wording of the additional resources entry for Dragon Empires Primer. ARG specifically calls out that only the listed race can take those items. While Dragon Empires Primer just says "kitsune" can take the kitsune feats. So, does that mean only the actual race, or someone with racial heritage: kitsune too? My gut is saying racial heritage would allow taking Fox Shape in PFS. But my gut is also telling me to eat, so I could be getting mixed messages.

[Beowulf Adrinor]

Beowulf Adrinor wrote:

Asking the developers to either chime in or let me post their answer I told you about above. Let you all know when they do.

Well, I was wrong. The official ruling says that the feat does not grant shape shifting, so a human with kitsune racial feat can NOT take Fox Shape. Here is the message I got.

Sent 14 minutes ago
From James Jacobs Add to Contacts
To Beowulf Adrinor
Subject Re: Kitsune Reply

Up to your GM, but I wouldn't allow it. Kitsune are supernatural, and I'm not really sure a mere feat is enough, story-wise and flavor-wise, in my opinion to allow that jump.

Sorry for misleading. I'm man enough to post when I am wrong.

[Torbyne]

Beowulf Adrinor wrote:

Beowulf Adrinor wrote:

Asking the developers to either chime in or let me post their answer I told you about above. Let you all know when they do.

Well, I was wrong. The official ruling says that the feat does not grant shape shifting, so a human with kitsune racial feat can NOT take Fox Shape. Here is the message I got.

Sent 14 minutes ago
From James Jacobs Add to Contacts
To Beowulf Adrinor
Subject Re: Kitsune Reply

Up to your GM, but I wouldn't allow it. Kitsune are supernatural, and I'm not really sure a mere feat is enough, story-wise and flavor-wise, in my opinion to allow that jump.

Sorry for misleading. I'm man enough to post when I am wrong.

Thats not an official ruling though, is it? He even states he would bar it based on story and flavor which would vary wildly from game to game. he is not basing it on any rules aspect aside from rule zero which doesnt stretch beyond his own gaming table.

Personally i disagree that having supernatural ancestry would somehow not allow you to also manifest some kind of supernatural effect related to your ancestry.

[alexd1976]

Beowulf Adrinor wrote:

Beowulf Adrinor wrote:

Asking the developers to either chime in or let me post their answer I told you about above. Let you all know when they do.

Well, I was wrong. The official ruling says that the feat does not grant shape shifting, so a human with kitsune racial feat can NOT take Fox Shape. Here is the message I got.

Sent 14 minutes ago
From James Jacobs Add to Contacts
To Beowulf Adrinor
Subject Re: Kitsune Reply

Up to your GM, but I wouldn't allow it. Kitsune are supernatural, and I'm not really sure a mere feat is enough, story-wise and flavor-wise, in my opinion to allow that jump.

Sorry for misleading. I'm man enough to post when I am wrong.

Interesting. As a thought experiment, has anybody made a magic item that could achieve what this feat combo seemed/seems to do?

[James Risner]

DM Beckett wrote:

Im only a poor 3 Starrer for the next few days/weeks

Fair enough. How about this, if you read the rules and conclude they are allowed despite all that has been said then you are following RAW. Well, at least your version of RAW.

[Aziraya Zhwan]

Beowulf Adrinor wrote:

Beowulf Adrinor wrote:

Asking the developers to either chime in or let me post their answer I told you about above. Let you all know when they do.

Well, I was wrong. The official ruling says that the feat does not grant shape shifting, so a human with kitsune racial feat can NOT take Fox Shape. Here is the message I got.

Sent 14 minutes ago
From James Jacobs Add to Contacts
To Beowulf Adrinor
Subject Re: Kitsune Reply

Up to your GM, but I wouldn't allow it. Kitsune are supernatural, and I'm not really sure a mere feat is enough, story-wise and flavor-wise, in my opinion to allow that jump.

Well it seems we may have an RAI answer from a respected source... but that still doesn't help with RAW as is the purpose of the rules forum.

[Daniel Myhre]

So it's still ambiguous for PFS play, and for non-PFS play it's still "up to GM to decide if it's allowed"?

[Beowulf Adrinor]

I play mostly Pathfinder Society games, so that feat combo isn't relative to me anyway since in PS it's not legal. I would allow it in a home game though.

[Daniel Myhre]

As would I, but I would insist the person provide a copy of the rules for it to me. I don't have that book yet, or the data package in hero lab. Thus I'd want a physical reference.

[alexd1976]

Aziraya Zhwan wrote:

Beowulf Adrinor wrote:

Beowulf Adrinor wrote:

Asking the developers to either chime in or let me post their answer I told you about above. Let you all know when they do.

Well, I was wrong. The official ruling says that the feat does not grant shape shifting, so a human with kitsune racial feat can NOT take Fox Shape. Here is the message I got.

Sent 14 minutes ago
From James Jacobs Add to Contacts
To Beowulf Adrinor
Subject Re: Kitsune Reply

Up to your GM, but I wouldn't allow it. Kitsune are supernatural, and I'm not really sure a mere feat is enough, story-wise and flavor-wise, in my opinion to allow that jump.

Well it seems we may have an RAI answer from a respected source... but that still doesn't help with RAW as is the purpose of the rules forum.

I would say it's pretty compelling though... in a situation where the rules aren't clear (such as this) surely one of the Paizo staff can voice an opinion that carries some weight...

This discussion wouldn't still be going on if the rules were clear.

His statement is good enough for me to decide how to rule in my home game...

[Johnny_Devo]

I dont blame him for thinking that way, however it looks like hes being careful to not phrase it as an official response.

It lends credence to the argument that its not intended to work that way, though. I wonder if there will be some kind of faq or errata to reflect that.

[Cuuniyevo]

Torbyne wrote:

Beowulf Adrinor wrote:

Beowulf Adrinor wrote:

Asking the developers to either chime in or let me post their answer I told you about above. Let you all know when they do.

Well, I was wrong. The official ruling says that the feat does not grant shape shifting, so a human with kitsune racial feat can NOT take Fox Shape. Here is the message I got.

REDACTED

Sorry for misleading. I'm man enough to post when I am wrong.

Thats not an official ruling though, is it? He even states he would bar it based on story and flavor which would vary wildly from game to game. he is not basing it on any rules aspect aside from rule zero which doesnt stretch beyond his own gaming table.

Personally i disagree that having supernatural ancestry would somehow not allow you to also manifest some kind of supernatural effect related to your ancestry.

Correct, that is not an official ruling, and I'm reasonably sure he wouldn't have wanted it posted here. James Jacobs has repeatedly said he doesn't want to be dragged into rules debates. That private message appears to be meant as advice from him in his capacity as a very experienced GM rather than as an employee of Paizo. He specifically says that he's speaking personally and sharing his opinion only. Bulmahn, Radney-MacFarlane and/or Seifter would probably be the people to check with.

For clarity in regards to the RAI argument, James Jacobs was indeed one of the writers of the APG and the Dragon Empires Gazetteer, as well as working on the AP which most heavily involves kitsune, but he is not listed as being one of the two authors of the Dragon Empires Primer, which introduces the Fox Shape feat. In his role as Creative Director he may have looked the feats over, we don't know, but he didn't write Fox Shape, so we should try to keep our questions pointed towards the design team.

[James Risner]

Johnny_Devo wrote:

It lends credence to the argument that its not intended to work that way, though. I wonder if there will be some kind of faq or errata to reflect that.

Cuuniyevo wrote:

Bulmahn, Radney-MacFarlane and/or Seifter would probably be the people to check with.

@Cunniyevo, actually the person in charge of all FAQ for non RPG products used to be James Jacobs. Doing research it seems Owen might be that person now.

[Aziraya Zhwan]

For those of you saying that it seems like an extremely powerful ability for just a feat, let me point you to this lovely item: the Ring of Seven Lovely Colors. For only 2,000gp you get a Ring of Protection +1 while also giving you the ability to shapeshift into (essentially a raven) 7 times a day for 10 minutes at a time as Beast Shape 4. Sounds to me like any builds that require this fox shape ability can probably do it better by just buying that item instead of using up a feat.

[alexd1976]

Aziraya Zhwan wrote:

For those of you saying that it seems like an extremely powerful ability for just a feat, let me point you to this lovely item: the Ring of Seven Lovely Colors. For only 2,000gp you get a Ring of Protection +1 while also giving you the ability to shapeshift into (essentially a raven) 7 times a day for 10 minutes at a time as Beast Shape 4. Sounds to me like any builds that require this fox shape ability can probably do it better by just buying that item instead of using up a feat.

Not a bad item, is there anything that is unlimited use/unlimited duration?

[James Risner]

Aziraya Zhwan wrote:

For those of you saying that it seems like an extremely powerful ability for just a feat

Do you have a specific post this is in response? Because I've failed to see a single post that took issue with the power level of the feat.

[alexd1976]

James Risner wrote:

Aziraya Zhwan wrote:

For those of you saying that it seems like an extremely powerful ability for just a feat

Do you have a specific post this is in response? Because I've failed to see a single post that took issue with the power level of the feat.

I'm someone who thinks this is potentially too powerful.

[Aziraya Zhwan]

Alex, I would enjoy sending a private message to you about this as to not derail the thread with a side-conversation. Would you mind allowing for private messages, or send me one?

[James Risner]

alexd1976 wrote:

I'm someone who thinks this is potentially too powerful.

Fair enough

[alexd1976]

Aziraya Zhwan wrote:

Alex, I would enjoy sending a private message to you about this as to not derail the thread with a side-conversation. Would you mind allowing for private messages, or send me one?

I have no objection to that, but haven't the foggiest on how to do that...