Hello all.
My players are just going to be sent into glassworks, so they don't really know much of what will happen to them soon;)
They heard that Scarnettis are a really bad guys always trying to give themselves unfair advantage using their monopoly on lumber, undermining Kendra's authority (while one of players is actually from Deverin family) and being a part of mill fires.
So basically they want to start investgation into Scarnetti (which is godd) and also to build new lumber mill and flour mill.
Advise i need is - they will have to build it in front of the northern gates (basically to make a new town block there) and will have to build also a defensive wooden wall (i don't see a stone wall in Downtime rules) and hire mercenaries to defend it. But those mercenaries will need to be paid and downtime system assumes that they are self sufficient. This is where i can't decide how to handle it.
Also i have a lot of plans (Sandpoint Bank for example) and would ask more questions in this thread.
The Downtime and Kingdom rules are separate things in Ultimate Campaign.. the Teams, Organizations, Rooms, and Buildings are more "personal" scale projects than the Kingdom-level Districts and such. There is some overlap, but they are mostly separate things.
As written in the Rooms, Buildings, Teams, and Organizations section, such mills will come with staff, and if the players add guardrooms to them, basic guards. They can use the Team rules to upgrade and replace the included teams with better guards.
The District and other Kingdom-level actions would make more sense for the Sandpoint Mercantile League or Town Council to do... acting as the government for Sandpoint. Unless the players are interested taking up offices in the government, it would not be for them to do these kinds of actions - though they could certainly offer to help the Town Council do it.
The mills that were burned down were scattered over the countryside around the farmlands, not in Sandpoint itself.. one at Biston's Pond, another on Cougar Creek, and the third on the Soggy River. These locations were likely chosen to make it easier for the farmers to bring their crops to them instead of taking it all the way to Sandpoint. That is something to consider as well.
Thanks a lot for your answer Urath DM. I really forgot that location can be an issue here. Then i'll have to make a hamlet of sorts... with the danger of goblins and such it will turn into a fort over time... which is not a bad thing in itself :)
A separate base of operations will be a good option in my opinion. Wooden palisade will be much more apropriate there with barracks near the gate. Mill and Lumber mill inside for business. A place for party wizards lab and tower and a place for a house which will turn into a mansion by the end of AP.
Also players will be sent to Choper's island very soon and will be able to buy it. This will provide a place for a Sandpoint residence for players and a bank, which is badly needed in the opinion of Jasper Korvasky, head of Mercantile League.
During Sandpoint raid bank will be one of the targets and fort can be attacked by giants on the way back.
Urath DM you sent my thoughts in the right direction.
Should it be hard to acquire deed needed to start a new business in Sandpoint Hinterlands or relatively easy considering that it is sorely needed by the town? It can be possible to make a social quest requiring to get four signs on the document from all Sandpoint noble families. Then it will be needed to somehow manipulate Scarnettis to sign it. Maybe by finding evidence of their involvement with Sczarni?
I am in a similar situation, as I am running Rise of the Runelords now as a Play-by-Email campaign. My players are nearing the end of Burnt Offerings at the moment.. and are deep in Thistletop. I used the Chopper's Isle adventure from Wayfinder #7, and they have begun to pay for the island.
So... remember that Sandpoint was started as a colony by Magnimar. It is really Magnimar that calls the shots, so I set up Sandpoint as a vassal "kingdom" to Magnimar for my uses. Of the four big families in Sandpoint, only the Kaijitsu family has no one in Magnimar. Really, the leaders of the families are in Magnimar, so even the nobles of Sandpoint are somewhat under their senior's control in that regard. That can make negotiations easier, or harder, depending on who the characters approach about it.
Making Sandpoint a vassal of Magnimar also allows the players to get more involved in the politics of Magnimar.
On the kindom level, the old locations of the other mills are potentially within the same "Kingdom Hex" as Sandpoint, and at that level Sandpoints' defenses are assumed to handle them as well. It is arguable that some of the locations may be in adjacent kingdom hexes, although given the 12-mile-across size of the Hexes, it seems less likely.. most of the Sandpoint Hinterlands fits in one or two hexes at that scale.
On the more personal Room/Building level, adding defenses is not a bad idea, and can be used to build up support against the expected goblin assaults, etc.
Blackmailing the Scarnettis could backfire, especially if there are Paladins in your group. Simply exposing them may have more long-term benefits in some ways.
If you want to do much with the Kingdom rules, I highly recommend Ultimate Rulership from Legendary Games. It adds some very interesting and flexible options to what is in Ultimate Campaign. If you want to do more with mass combat, as well, then Ultimate Battle, Ultimate War, and Ultimate Commander (all also from Legendary Games) may also be of interest to you.
The fact that Sandpoint and its hinterlands are one Kingdom hex only means that using mass combat rules my players Sawmill and mill will be protected. But if we go to lower scale then Sandpoint wouldn't be able to save it from all attacks. It would only mean that attackers will have aproximately 1-2 hours to take and sack the place, after which a reaction force of gurds would appear. After Sandpoint raid this reaction force would be a little bit busy with looking for injured and taking out fires. So a few giants trying to vent their frustration on players home on the way back would be ok (giants weren't allowed to do it before attack to maintain secrecy and element of surprise).
Also i don't really intend to use Kingdom rules before handing Fort Rannick to my players, when Magnimar would give them charter to rid the land around Rannick and Turtleback Ferry of dangers and help rebuild the town, after which they will be able to tax town and its hinterlands for protection and will be paying tax to Magnimar themselves as a kind of vassal state. This of course also include a possibility of rebellion, union with Korvosa, union against Korovsa and so on ;)
But during AP they will only have enough time to rebuild a little and not prosper enough to start building an army. Maybe after Karzoug.
But let's return to the players hamlet. They have an income from mill and sawmill, maybe from alchemist lab of a wizard - that i can understand. But how can addition of guards or even elite esoldiers lead to actual increase of profits? I mean soldiers are not producing anything - they take payment from the profits of hamlet right? So basically i just can't understand how to link Downtime rules to common sense here.
I would avoid calling it the players' outpost. So close to Sandpoint, there doesn't seem to be a need for another settlement. An "outpost" of some sort, or even calling it a "manor" in the sense used in feudal fiefdoms, is probably more appropriate.
For the guards, such an "outpost" or "manor" may not be able to generate gold so far from the settlement (Sandpoint); you could rule that they can only be used to generate Labor or Influence (which will cost them gold to achieve). That might be more believable.
For an interesting treatment of the manorial system in game terms, "A Magical Medieval Society : Western Europe" from Expeditious Retreat Press is very good... it does not mesh with the Downtime or Kingdom rules from Ultimate Campaign, but you may be able to pull some ideas from it.
I'll take a look at it thank you.
By calling it a settlement i only meant an independent base of operations for players. They will settle there, no? :)
I mean it will probably have a population if at least 50 (mill and sawmill will have a group of workers - 5 each, lumberjacks - 5 or 10, at least 10 guards and their families. And that's the bare minimum without alchemists for wizard's tower, mansion workers and so on). It would be probably the place with the biggest number of people outside Sandpoint walls (well except cemetery in Pauper Graves of course).
I get what you're saying. I am just careful about terms :)
Depending on how you see Sandpoint's location inside the Kingdom Hex, much of the rest of the hinterlands could be part of the same hex.. in that case, your original mention of adding a new District that counts as part of Sandpoint would work.
If you plan to keep this using the Downtime rules (Teams/Buildings/ Rooms/Organizations) and not at the kingdom level, I would not worry about considering it an expansion to Sandpoint. The employees are not necessarily *new* population.. perhaps some of "Gorvi's Boys" were glad of the chance to become guards or lumberjacks, and similar cases. And the millers could be the owners and employees of the mills that were burned down.
In the end, that's all up to how you want to work it.
Also, you mentioned an adventure on Chopper's Isle... is that from Wayfinder #7, or your own creation? If it is your own, I would suggest getting Wayfinder #7 for the Hook Mountain area set up for the Exploration and Kingdom rules.
Yes that was the godness from Wayfinder 7 (though originaly from some internet site i believe). So i already plan to introduce kingdom rules after fort Rannick.
For now i see that they will have to go to Magnimar with a petition signed by four noble families and register it here. It will give them first insight into a great a generous man governor Grobas is ;) And i want them to be turned down, but then hailed by a woman who wants to find what happened to her brother in law - and that would be a hook to make them explore Varisia a bit and get into Feast of Ravenmoor. For this she will help to get needed approval.
If you are looking to expand, you can "steal" material from pieces of the Shattered Star AP (such as descriptions of Windsong Abbey and the Lady's Light), and some other modules (Seven Swords of Sin, the Godsmouth Heresy).
I especially am looking for ways to use the Rune Guardian from Godsmouth Heresy.
I let the thread go to sleep for too long:( I like Godsmouth Heresy very much but i doubt players would visit Kaer Maga. Only if i specifically turn them into that direction with some adventure hook.
I was not thinking you should run Godsmouth Heresy.. more that, if you need something "new", you could steal the Rune Guardian that appears in that module. It would be an appropriate low-level creature in just about any Thassilonian site, based on its description... and there are variations for each magical specialty.