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Wrath is now my 2nd Mythic campaign, after employing the rules in my homebrew game. My players are pretty notorious min/maxers as well. I've yet to see the Mythic rules cause too many problems. In my opinion, I think the ability score increases cause more damage than any of the abilities granted by tiers do. Also, the initiative boost tends to cause issues IF players also boost their init via feats/traits. So, if you want to keep the difficulty higher, maybe consider removing those bonuses, or disallowing the +2 ability score boosts to stack, forcing players to spread them among 5 abilities.
It seems like every time I see any complaint thread about Mythic, the detailed explanation reveals they were running some component of the rules wrong. Our first crack at Mythic seemed broken, until I really dug into tracking the players actions/resources.
I see a lot of people allowing Swift actions to happen in place of move actions. I see a lot of people ignoring the interaction between immediate & Swift actions. I see a lot of people forgetting you can't use a free action when it isn't your turn.
A good example is the Mythic Wizard, I see them come up often as a problem:
They get (effectively) either a pearl of power, or a wildcard spell as a swift action. That's not a whole lot more effective than any caster with quicken, or a rod of quicken. And (common error) they cannot also use a quickened spell. Their Swift is used up already. They can take an extra standard, which can't be used for spells (or by extension spell completion items, no pulling out a wand/staff here).
I mean, really I don't see the Mythic Wizard getting a whole lot that the base Wizard doesn't also get access to. And that's pretty much across the board for most classes.
So, don't be petrified by the horror stories. Just be diligent in tracking the action economy better, and player resources. Mythic rules lean heavily on Swift/immediate actions, so keeping those straight is critical. (Note: remember that using an immediate action causes you to lose your following Swift action. I see many people thinking you get one of each)
Pretty cool Axiem, if you wouldn't mind sharing more of your experiences with mythic adventures that would be huge! I know a lot of people have either written it off or are incredibly cynical about it and any sort of positive or impartial feedback or interpretations would help those like me that would rather not write it off :-)
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And don't forget that they errata'd Wild Arcana/Inspired Spell quite some time ago, turning them into standard actions. That helped, too.
Very good point that I forgot to mention! I actually house-ruled that very early before the official errata came out, but it makes much more sense working the way it states in the errata.
@Captain: I will say in my experience martial characters get a lot of love. (Which is fine, I think) They basically get pounce with fleet charge. I had a Warrior with the two handed weapon archetype, that could dish out some pretty wild damage at max level due to how Mythic power attack interacts with the archetype class abilities.
I made this chart to help my players understand the nuance of how multiple multiplying effects work on damage, because foebiting and vital strike made math at the table very slow, so hopefully this is useful to someone:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwB3FrQGa5c5N2tjWV9MNFM3MFU/edit?usp=docsl ist_api
(Sorry for the garbage formatting, I'm posting from my phone, lol)
About "getting pounce with fleet charge", just be aware that full attack says the following:
The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.
What that means is up to you, I've seen a number of people interpret that very differently than I do (which is if you're making a full attack you can only five foot step, you can however use fleet charge to attack without moving).
I've required Fleet Warrior to allow "pouncing" when using Fleet Charge.
Fleet Warrior (Ex): When making a full attack, you can move up to your speed either before or after your attacks. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.
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We might be talking about different things: I mean pounce as in how the feline monsters have it (move + full attack). Not like a Monk with spring attack.
The way I rule fleet charge is it must be used before or after your full attack, and the movement from fleet charge never counts as a "five foot step" for the purpose of avoiding AoOs, and players MUST move when using fleet charge, otherwise there is really no purpose in sudden attack even existing, lol.
So, they either get a nice gap closer, that you really can't use in melee without it costing you AoOs, or they get a good attack that will hit pretty consistently, but they lose out on the round 1 full attack.
Another way to keep fleet charge from being too powerful, is to not stage every encounter from charge range, lol. I know a lot of GMs who do that, and it used to be a habit of mine. Also remember with fleet charge, it's just their base move, not their normal charge distance. I've had someone mess that up.
I modified Fleet Charge to be the following: The character takes a Move Action. Before, during, or after the Move, the character gets to make an attack as part of the Move Action. The character will still have a Swift and a Standard Action available when using Fleet Charge.
In essence it gives the player one extra attack when moving... in essence, two attacks or three if combined with an ability that allows an attack as a Swift Action (and that starts eating up Mythic points quickly). (And it can climb to four attacks if a Marshal character then chooses to use that character as his weapon using his own "someone else attacks" Mythic ability.)
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I modified Fleet Charge to be the following: The character takes a Move Action. Before, during, or after the Move, the character gets to make an attack as part of the Move Action. The character will still have a Swift and a Standard Action available when using Fleet Charge.
I'm of mixed opinion on this one... So, your denying them the full attack, but they keep the Swift. If they dual path, they could take sudden strike, and then go the route of Mythic vital strike ( with the standard & the Mythic init bonus standard...). Also consider, when they fleet charge, they typically move first, or they don't use the move action at all. The function is to get them into melee and get a full attack still, so... I feel like the base fleet charge kind of inherently uses both move and Swift, by either incorporating a move before, or by rendering the move wasted once they're in swinging range.
I feel like letting them keep the full atk ( because several swings should miss anyway) and costing the Swift is more "expensive" to their potential damage output. Swift actions are the currency of Mythic.
Also consider, this allows them to still fleet charge after using a defensive immediate skill like mirror dodge. Normally they're making a tough trade off decision.
Unless your intention was to make fleet charge more powerful, then you're fine. It seems more like an unintentional buff, though, when you consider that Mythic vital strike is effectively a full round attack action, with a better hit chance. Unless they're avoiding the vital strike chain (but its super strong with Mythic rules)
It doesn't really. Not at high levels when Mythic goes off the rails.
Consider: A Hasted 16th level Fighter with two-weapon fighting and the feats allowing him to use the secondary weapon three times would attack eight times in a round for a Full-Attack option. Add in the Swift Fleet Charge, and he's attacking nine times in a round. A Marshal using him as the target of a extra attack boosts that further to 10 attacks a round - four of those attacks at full BAB.
It is entirely likely due to other Mythic abilities that he doesn't get a -5 for the second attack and maybe even the third... so he may have six or eight attacks at full BAB.
Under the rule I've instituted, that same fighter would get at most four attacks in a round, at full BAB.
We might be talking about different things: I mean pounce as in how the feline monsters have it (move + full attack). Not like a Monk with spring attack.
The way I rule fleet charge is it must be used before or after your full attack, and the movement from fleet charge never counts as a "five foot step" for the purpose of avoiding AoOs, and players MUST move when using fleet charge, otherwise there is really no purpose in sudden attack even existing, lol.
So, they either get a nice gap closer, that you really can't use in melee without it costing you AoOs, or they get a good attack that will hit pretty consistently, but they lose out on the round 1 full attack.
Another way to keep fleet charge from being too powerful, is to not stage every encounter from charge range, lol. I know a lot of GMs who do that, and it used to be a habit of mine. Also remember with fleet charge, it's just their base move, not their normal charge distance. I've had someone mess that up.
I'm not sure if we are. I thought you were saying you allowed Fleet Charge to close the gap and attack, then after that's resolved allow them the full attack.
If so, I've ruled it as such (Everything from this point forward is my interpretation of the rules. I fully admit this could be wrong, or even against the intent):
A full attack is a full-round action, so any movement in the round is a during the full-round action. Full Attack says the only movement allowed is a 5-foot step, and fleet charge's movement is clearly not a 5-foot step. If you take Fleet Warrior however, you're allowed to move up to your speed during your full attack action, which would allow you to couple Fleet Charge and Full Attack.
This means that Fleet Warrior doesn't grant you an effective Move Action for every Full Attack you take. It simply allows you to move up to your speed using abilities that grant you the additional movement as a swift action (e.g. Fleet Charge).
Lastly Fleet Charge certainly doesn't allow you to not move and still attack. So that's fully a house rule on my part.
I modified Fleet Charge to be the following: The character takes a Move Action. Before, during, or after the Move, the character gets to make an attack as part of the Move Action. The character will still have a Swift and a Standard Action available when using Fleet Charge.
In essence it gives the player one extra attack when moving... in essence, two attacks or three if combined with an ability that allows an attack as a Swift Action (and that starts eating up Mythic points quickly). (And it can climb to four attacks if a Marshal character then chooses to use that character as his weapon using his own "someone else attacks" Mythic ability.)
This is certainly different in practice than what I've done, however I think it's much more elegant and easier to explain to players. Mind if I consider this for my group?
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A full attack is a full-round action, so any movement in the round is a during the full-round action. Full Attack says the only movement allowed is a 5-foot step, and fleet charge's movement is clearly not a 5-foot step. If you take Fleet Warrior however, you're allowed to move up to your speed during your full attack action, which would allow you to couple Fleet Charge and Full Attack.
Gotcha, we're on the same page now. I've never considered that, but that actually makes a lot of sense, and I feel like it's more balanced with the other options.
I may start using this interpretation. I still feel like it caters heavily to Mythic vital strike builds, though. I suppose that's karma for vital strike being otherwise overlooked, lol.
This is certainly different in practice than what I've done, however I think it's much more elegant and easier to explain to players. Mind if I consider this for my group?I modified Fleet Charge to be the following: The character takes a Move Action. Before, during, or after the Move, the character gets to make an attack as part of the Move Action. The character will still have a Swift and a Standard Action available when using Fleet Charge.
In essence it gives the player one extra attack when moving... in essence, two attacks or three if combined with an ability that allows an attack as a Swift Action (and that starts eating up Mythic points quickly). (And it can climb to four attacks if a Marshal character then chooses to use that character as his weapon using his own "someone else attacks" Mythic ability.)
Go ahead. It's why I post these ideas. :)
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Wrath is now my 2nd Mythic campaign, after employing the rules in my homebrew game. My players are pretty notorious min/maxers as well. I've yet to see the Mythic rules cause too many problems. In my opinion, I think the ability score increases cause more damage than any of the abilities granted by tiers do. Also, the initiative boost tends to cause issues IF players also boost their init via feats/traits. So, if you want to keep the difficulty higher, maybe consider removing those bonuses, or disallowing the +2 ability score boosts to stack, forcing players to spread them among 5 abilities.
What level have you gotten to in Mythic? The campaign I'm in we were at 12th level and 4th Mythic Tier. IT wasn't really any fun for the DM or the players as it was becoming rocket tag with us players tending to get the jump on the NPCs or monsters. We dropped mythic after we hit 13th level and have played a few sessions and combat seems like a challenge again. Right when I was getting burned out on Pathfinder, mainly due to mythic sucking so bad in our game, the last session was at the end of book 4. Looked like a total party wipe going against Demon goddess daughter Hep. 5 people in our party, 3 people down (way down) and it was me (Magus) and the Ranger. I was down 40 HP so the next time she hit, I was down. I was able to vanish and she laughed and turned toward the Ranger. I had put vorpal on my blackblade at the start of combat and it was our only chance to win. So when she turned to kill the ranger and moved out of my threatened square, on my AoO, I rolled a freakin' 20 and lopped her head off! Talk about pure dice roll luck but in character i KNEW I was going to walk away with her head!
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What level have you gotten to in Mythic? The campaign I'm in we were at 12th level and 4th Mythic Tier. IT wasn't really any fun for the DM or the players as it was becoming rocket tag with us players tending to get the jump on the NPCs or monsters. We dropped mythic after we hit 13th level and have played a few sessions and combat seems like a challenge again. Right when I was getting burned out on Pathfinder, mainly due to mythic sucking so bad in our game, the last session was at the end of book 4. Looked like a total party wipe going against Demon goddess daughter Hep. 5 people in our party, 3 people down (way down) and it was me (Magus) and the Ranger. I was down 40 HP so the next time she hit, I was down. I was able to vanish and she laughed and turned toward the Ranger. I had put vorpal on my blackblade at the start of combat and it was our only chance to win. So when she turned to kill the ranger and moved out of my threatened square, on my AoO, I rolled a freakin' 20 and lopped her head off! Talk about pure dice roll luck but in character i KNEW I was going to walk away with her head!
In Wrath, the PCs are currently at the final boss fight of Book 3, and we all feel like the campaign is just tipping into the realm of getting good. We've actually been a bit bored with all the clunkiness of the army rules and the rebuilding Drezen downtime stuff.
In my previous game (A heavily modified castle Ravenloft game, that went FAR beyond the scope of that module) They ended up Mythic Tier 10, and character level 25 (Using the Jesse's Pathfinder Epic-Level rules) That was following a complaint from my players that I run too many low-level games. I actually really prefer GMing low-level, due to all the complexities things like greater invis, flight, etc etc add. Also I am not a fan of the rocket tag effect.
So, I totally get where you're coming from. The GM just needs to utilize tools to mitigate that. I feel like a lot of it comes from how they execute the encounter, and the old 3.5 "Dungeonscape" supplement is my go-to reference to help me run a combat in a challenging way. There is a section near the end that describes how to stage an encounter, so I'll paraphrase:
Give each monster an archetype based on it's role in that encounter - the book has loads of examples for this, I can list them later when I am at home if you're interested. Then, analyze the fight with a "test party." This becomes easier if you keep good notes on the PC tactics in other fights. Know your wizards go-to spells, know their trump cards, know all their common tactics - and execute the fight in your head using those tactics, then ask yourself what you can do to mitigate that strategy. Whether it's just adding a template, or relocating monsters, using some buffs or changing tactics - or even adding a new monster.
Also, make the fight dynamic: So you have a burst caster, and there's three bruisers protecting him. You could nuke him from ranged, BUT there's a support caster keeping a steady string of magic defenses in the way. And there's no time to deal with her, as there's a hail of arrows coming from the other corner of the room. To make matters worse, three rounds later, assassins come to reinforce from behind, and cripple your mage or healer!
That fight will be a lot more challenging than an NPC wizard, 3 bugbears, a cleric, and 2 rangers who all happen to be within charging distance, and in a room that fits within a fireball range.
The other thing about mythic is pulling no punches - and this requires the GM to spend more prep time than usual reading and understanding the full deadly scope of tactics an enemy can bring to the table. The Xanthir Vang fight is a perfect example of this. I full expect several of my PCs to die in this upcoming fight. Vang knows EVERYTHING about them. To make matters worse, they have attacked his lair then retreated already, so he will be as prepared as he can be when they finally meet him.
Now, another key thing is pacing, and feeling mythic. It's totally okay for mythic players to go a few encounters without breaking a sweat. In fact, I think that enhances the story you're trying to tell. They're Hercules - paltry goons are not a threat. Big bads are a threat. I think Wrath does an excellent job of seeding plenty of mythic enemies in that kind of fall into the middle ground of not being hugely important, but still being mythic.
Another important thing is forcing them to expend resources, and making it matter. This is important even in non-mythic high level games, for spellcasters. The GM simply cannot let players rest whenever they want. Even if players have access to all kinds of magic to help, you've got to do something to hinder that (Even though Mythic heroes get recuperate, and can recharge super fast.) If you don't hit them with some unexpected encounters and ambushes - if every fight is on their terms - then they might as well just have infinite mythic power. Which again goes back to pulling no punches. A great tool for this is the myriad of recurring villains Wrath has. The whole adventure, players are angering powerful demons with powerful connections and resources. It makes complete sense to have assassins on their tail, who again know and exploit any weakness with cruel cunning. I cannot wait to hound my players with Xanthir Vang if they manage to best him and survive. With all of his god complex and notions of vanity, he will be driven mad unless he manages to crush them.
So - I do think it requires an adjustment of GM style to properly run Mythic. It also requires a lot more attention to detail, and tracking of resources. It's definitely much more work for the GM, and the players as well. I've had great success with it, and my players have all loved it.
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Here's the thing about Wrath of the Righteous - books 4-6 are... designed more for players who aren't Mythic. There are entire areas where the monsters are not a challenge for NON-Mythic characters. While part of this may be to make the players feel they're running god-like characters... it goes too far.
I plan on integrating parts of WotR into my Runelords games (books 4 and 6), and the fact my group has a lower Mythic Tier than called for should help make things a bit harder. What's more, I've modified Mythic a bit (and also modified the Critical Hit system so that it works like Vital Strike - the only thing "multiplied" on a critical is the number of damage dice - no other modifiers improve).
I also have eliminated Iterative Attacks as per the Unchained Rules (and added a few other Unchained rules into the game such as Background Skills and the magic items that slowly become more powerful over time).
This works both ways. The rocket tag is reduced for the enemies against the PCs, and in getting only one attack roll, it is far less likely for an enemy to score a critical hit than if they get 5 attack rolls. And if something happens that isn't fun? I will ignore it. And my players know this - we do our game over Skype and on Roll20, and if Roll20 pulls off a couple natural 1s to-hit? "I didn't see that roll. Please roll again."
The most important part of any Pathfinder game is it should be fun. Mythic can be very much like playing the game in God Mode. After a little bit it gets boring for many players.
I think dismissing problems with mythic based on book 3 is a trifle premature. I managed to make the fight at the end of book 3 rather challenging using moderately improved creatures with only double or it may have been triple normal hp.
By contrast I ran the end of book 5 last week with Level 17 mythic tier 8 characters. I gave Baphomat (amusingly the spellchecker tried to convert this to Bathmat which is about how much chance he stood) about 5000hp, he lasted 3 rounds. He killed of the party healer although that did no good as her mythic spirit hung around for 8 rounds healing everyone.
For this fight the party was fully buffed and spending mythic points rapidly , but I made no mistake with the rules and it was a walk over. My players seemed to enjoy it and probably did not realise how doomed Baphomat was. (The herald with improvements had previously been redeemed in a single round...)
Baphomat could have been better prepared , but the scenario calls for him being under prepared. I figure I am going to have to give Deskari over 10,000hp
To take the worst problem I have a two handed weapon fighting Paladin he gets a full attack every round
Set for combat he has 4 attacks at +54 and 1 at +49 with an extra attack if he spends a mythic point so typically 6 attacks. Normally all of them hit each attack does 5d6 +74 damage, against Baphomat he used foe biter on a lot of attacks and they had managed to get a Litany of righteousness in on him (Wizard with great SR breaking ability burned a limited wish to emulate the spell) typically he gets 1 crit in a round of attacks (crit range 17-20)
so he was getting 5 attacks tripled (from foebiter and litany of righteosness combined arguably it could be quadrupled, also I ignore the bonus damage from Power attack on a crit) and 1 quadrupled crit combined with the above that is 1406 +69d6 damage so about 1607 damage.
There is nothing exceptional about his build and he keeps forgetting some other things he could do (Divine Bond is the most obvious)
Nothing in any of the scenarios can survive that, the other problem of course is that he has about 330 hp and killing him is nearly as easy.
This makes balancing challenging difficult between instant kills by the pc's and tpk as the margin is very narrow.
I like the plot and the players are having fun but I will never use the mythic rules again.
There are 2 gm;s in the group I am running this game for the other one if he had been running this campaign would have either abandoned it or broken down in tears he could just not handle the amount of effort it is for the gm to make the combats playable
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Having to double and triple HP for the monsters to make it a challenge does not bode well for saying the Mythic system was well designed. Doing 5k in 3 rounds sounds fun for maybe the first time but game gets boring after that since it turns into rocket tag to determine the winner. Truly terrible system in my opinion.
Again: Modifying the Critical system so it acts like non-Mythic Vital Strike will significantly reduce rocket tag aspects of the game (and of Mythic).
Completely rewriting the combat system may well solve some problems :(
However If I was going to rewrite the entire combat system I may as well write my own RPG or use one with a different set of problems. Saying that rewriting the combat system fixes mythic is not all that useful.
I don't have a suggestion to fix mythic, its problem is that it makes worse the existing high level problems.
One interesting thing is that mythic makes Spellcasters less effective in some respects. Save or suck spells effectively cost 1 mythic point by the high end as you can end negative conditions for a free action and a mythic point, this makes martial characters much more valuable.
I find that the casters are good for healing, buffing and some battlefield control . Debuffs and damaging spells don't achieve very much.
I do however think my players are largely enjoying the game, the problem is the amount of rewrite I have to do for opponents even with the excellent work others have done in these forums
That isn't a complete rewrite. That is a simple fix to an existing problem.
You still critical on a 20 for most weapons. You still confirm a critical with a second roll. What changes is that, say, for a longbow you'd roll 3d8 and then add other modifiers, when a medium-sized character hits.
So a fighter with a long sword who rolls a 19 would still need to confirm his roll. However, his Weapon Specialization, Power Attack (adding let's say +4) and Strength 16 would be added once - so 2d8+9, compared to 2d8+18. And if that monster that does 2d6+12 crits back? It's doing 4d6+12 instead of +24.
It's simple, and even speeds up the game because you don't need to double modifiers, just the number of dice thrown for damage.
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I wonder what would happen if you went with a S.D.C. and M.D.C. system like Rifts or Robotech :-)