Base Value and higher levels

[Dire Manbearpig]

My group is currently 13th level in the RotRL AP. We've finally reached a point where we have a bit of time to sell stuff and buy/create items before going off on our next task. We're coming from Sandpoint, a town that's small and would have little gear. The next closest city is Magnimar, which we're familiar with, so we teleported there relatively easily. Magnimar is only a large city though with a base value of around 12k according to our DM. Our DM had us roll to figure out what all the minor, medium and major items were with whatever table he was using, and obviously most of them were not what we were looking for. We're 13th level at this point, so few of the items we want are 12k or less. What are we supposed to do then? Craft all the 12k+ items? Order them in via Wizard Amazon? Try to teleport way off to Absolom or some place we've never been or pay for a teleport taxi service there? Pay someone to craft them (I couldn't find anything regarding this)? What are you supposed to do in APs to acquire the necessary gear when there are no nearby metropolises?

Also, for APs the normal "sell magic items for half" rule still applies, yes?

[jbadams]

Our GM treats the random generation as a guideline rather than strict rules, and depending on how well it goes tailors the items to better suit our party. I would talk to your GM to see if they're willing to be a bit more flexible about the items available.

If they don't want to adjust it you'll obviously have to result to alternatives such as travelling or crafting your own items. I don't see why you couldn't have relevant NPCs craft custom items on your behalf as long as you're able to pay them the appropriate amount, can provide them any unusual resources required, have the time available, you're able to successfully negotiate such a deal with them, and they can succeed at the required checks.

I believe selling for half value should still apply unless your AP specifically states otherwise. Our GM applied this rule strictly if we're being lazy and attempting to sell in bulk, but it more flexible with it if we're creative and put the effort into finding specific interested buyers and making all of the relevant checks to negotiate a good deal; as an example, we recently came across some items of minor historical significance in the local area, but because we took the time to search for paperwork establishing the ownership and history, search out specifically interested buyers, and then make diplomacy checks to improve attitude and negotiate a favourable deal we earned a higher sell value.

So I would recommend first talking to your GM to see if they're willing to be a little more flexible.

[Dire Manbearpig]

Are there any rules regarding commissioning NPCs to make magic items for you? I couldn't find anything.

[Qaianna]

You might finesse something out of the general downtime system in Ultimate Campaign, but again that's downtime. As far as anything else? You may have to break out the crafting rules (which of course depends on what kinds of characters you have), or bone up on Teleport to get to the mall.

Again, maybe the best thing is to just have a simple talk with the GM regarding the items you want, versus what's available. Don't argue, but let him/her know how you guys think you need a few extra things.

[jbadams]

I don't know of any rules specifically outlining commissioning items from an NPC, but the fact that the crafting and magic item creation rules don't suggest anywhere that these rules are only for players combined with the fact that NPCs are commonly listed with the relevant feats and skills implicitly suggests it's allowed.

Again, I would just talk to your GM and see if they're happy to allow it and under what conditions. Given the cost to craft an item is half the cost you would pay for the item (wiggle room for diplomacy checks, etc. not withstanding) there's plenty of profit there for an NPC if your GM allows it.

[thunderbeard]

Yeah... I usually rule that players "commissioning" items requires a decent diplomacy check, or a friendly powerful mage willing to take orders from the party. But if the party member has a reputation for fairness and paying on time, the profit from making a magic item is always 500 gp/day, and an NPC is more likely to want to craft the biggest items they can with a guaranteed buyer than wait around in a shop hoping someone will eventually buy their mid-range potions.

Of course, if you're commissioning a +5 sword, it might take a few months for the order to go through (or two weeks, if the crafter has a valet familiar and is using accelerated crafting)

[Diego Rossi]

Generally the AP, with some small adjustment by the GM that should change a rapier to a scimitar or whatever common weapon your party need and use,give you what you need. It is only when people make specialized characters that depend on using uncommon equipment that we have problems.

The guy that absolutely need a resistance item with a different location because he should wear some specific item in the shoulder slot is in trouble if someone in the party can't make the items he want.

Ordering specific items is very reasonable, but it is GM territory.

Maagnimar is a large city, and that give it a purchase base value of 8,000 gp (GMG). Your GM is already applying some modifier there (probably it is in the city description). But you can buy spellcasting services up to 7th level spells there, so it is reasonable to say that you can order items that require spells up to that level.
On the other hand a guy capable to cast 7th level spells probably wouldn't dedicate all his time to craft your items. I, at least, in the PC shoes, would say something like: "My working day is 8 hours long, 5 days every week, so to make your 30K gp items I will need 6 weeks. and I will start next week as I have some works that I should do before starting. 50% of the payment in advance, deposited on my account in the Adabar vault, please."

You want him to work during the week end? You pay premium. You want him to increase the DC and work at double speed, you pay even more.

Then your reputation, deed and eventual friendship can change that. Even being working often with him, selling him items he would want and paying regularly will get some discount or a faster job after a time.
But that all is GM territory and will vary from campaign to campaign.

Magical Marketplace has some suggestion about that, but I wouldn't call them more than suggestions.

[wraithstrike]

I think Absalom is a bigger place so the wealth level should be higher. I would teleport there instead.

I would also look into asking the GM if ordering certain items or finding someone to craft them for you is an option.

[Diego Rossi]

thunderbeard wrote:

Of course, if you're commissioning a +5 sword, it might take a few months for the order to go through (or two weeks, if the crafter has a valet familiar and is using accelerated crafting)

As I see it, the crafter, if he can without risking a failure, will always work at double speed and use all the systems he know to shorten the time needed for the crafting process, but he will never admit he is doing that unless he is paid more to speed up the process.

I.e., a crafter that get a commission for a +1 weapon will always say that he need 2 days to make it, even if any caster can make it in 1 day as the DC is 8 and you can take 10 in the crafting checks.
He will use the free day to make other stuff or to go fishing and deliver the completed sword at the end of the second day. Standard commercial procedure: never give for free something for which you can get money (unless it is a form of advertising).

[thunderbeard]

A crafter who crafts normally is making 500 gp in profits a day, if he he's making items he can actually sell (which is why commissions are usually worthwhile and important to such a crafter). A crafter who uses accelerated crating and has a cooperative familiar is making 2000 gp in profits a day.

Why would he not accelerate everything he can?

[Snowblind]

thunderbeard wrote:

A crafter who crafts normally is making 500 gp in profits a day, if he he's making items he can actually sell (which is why commissions are usually worthwhile and important to such a crafter). A crafter who uses accelerated crating and has a cooperative familiar is making 2000 gp in profits a day.

Why would he not accelerate everything he can?

I think the idea is that the crafter always accelerates crafting but doesn't tell the buyer about it.

He can then charge more for a "Premium" crafting service.

This is of course bringing economics into the Pathfinder crafting system, which is a terrible, terrible mistake. Pathfinder crafting basically assumes that nobody ever undercuts their competition. Jacking up one's prices for faster crafting makes no sense when the guy down the street can offer fast crafting for free and then act like he is doing the customer a favor (does not screwing the customer count as a favor in business?).

[Diego Rossi]

You have got what I was saying, Snowblind, and about competition, it it depend, the guy down the street can make the item? Or you are the only 13th level caster in the city with the needed spells, so that the other guy would have to increase the DC for lacking the spells? Or be unable to make the item if it is a wand, scroll, staff or potion?

[Eltacolibre]

Planar ally and planar bidding, to summon extraplanar merchants, if there is something that you need,they can get it for you.

A mercane for example only has 6 hd. They will probably make you pay a bit extra but quite honestly, extraplanar merchants can easily fufill most unusual requests.

[Snowblind]

Diego Rossi wrote:

You have got what I was saying, Snowblind, and about competition, it it depend, the guy down the street can make the item? Or you are the only 13th level caster in the city with the needed spells, so that the other guy would have to increase the DC for lacking the spells? Or be unable to make the item if it is a wand, scroll, staff or potion?

It would only matter if you can make the item accelerated and they can't.

A 9th level caster can literally bind an outsider(a hound archon, for example) to go shopping around the world for scrolls. Spells known is not a real issue.

You would have to be significantly higher level than every other crafter for there to be a lack of competition.

Besides, most business would not come from making prismatic plate armor. It would come from cheap stuff like CLW potions/wands, +1 gear etc. You have absolutely zero advantage over a typical level 3 wizard when it comes to making a +1 cloak of resistance. Money is worth a lot more to him, too, so he will be more willing to take a hit to profit just to bring in business. The only thing you would be able to charge a premium on is the super rare high level order (it will be rare - 100kgp orders could begger a city).

Economics should stay out of pathfinder - crafting just makes no sense from an economic standpoint.

[thunderbeard]

Er... I don't think that's the case. If you're making, say, CLW wands, that's only 375/day max profit vs the 2000 number. Commissions represent a great way for retired spellcasters too powerful to bother with useless time-consuming trinkets to still make a boatload of cash with their expertise at not that much work.

There's also the option where someone takes Leadership to found some sort of guild, and their Cohort and followers are all craftspersons who make things for the party at cost (or maybe 60% of cost, to account for their salaries) and never leave town.

[Dire Manbearpig]

Thanks for the input I'll link my DM to this.

Also I have to agree that you can't involve economics too much in something as silly as D&D. It's what? A few GP to rent rooms and get a meal? The average salary is some silver pieces? Somehow though, the world is flooded with gold and magic items and everyone you run into has magic items and a purse full of gold and gems. The basic concepts of supply and demand and flooding the market are rarely compatible with standard D&D play.

[Snowblind]

thunderbeard wrote:

Er... I don't think that's the case. If you're making, say, CLW wands, that's only 375/day max profit vs the 2000 number. Commissions represent a great way for retired spellcasters too powerful to bother with useless time-consuming trinkets to still make a boatload of cash with their expertise at not that much work.

There's also the option where someone takes Leadership to found some sort of guild, and their Cohort and followers are all craftspersons who make things for the party at cost (or maybe 60% of cost, to account for their salaries) and never leave town.

A level 6 wizard with 18 base int, +2 int headband,+1 spellcraft ioun stone , 6 ranks in spellcraft and a valet familiar gets a +17 to their check. They can make DC27 checks. Throw in gloves of elvenkind and the wizard can make stuff WAY above their level, even crafting fast.

+2 Headbands and Belts of statboosts are DC27 crafted fast. +2 Weapons are even lower. The above level 6 wizard can make a +2 sword in 2 days or a +2 statboost belt in a day, even without the gloves. With the gloves, that wizard will be able to craft almost anything a higher level wizard can craft that is likely to ever actually be commissioned or bought.

A level 13 wizard has almost no advantage over a level 6 one, but the level 6 one doesn't mind cutting down on profits as much to boost business, since he isn't as rich as the level 13 wizard. There is also the issue of the unlikelihood of anybody buying a 4000gp+ item every day. They will both probably have to resort to making cheaper items just to get business (once again, the level 6 wizard minds this less - even 250gp profit a day is a lot of money to him).

Leadership I am not getting into. That feat is stupid.