Short form: Tidepool Dragon says to recharge to add to a check, then roll 1d12; on a 1, banish this card. Since the card is not in hand (having been recharged,) how can it be banished?
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I'm just scouting ahead because the S&S group I'm helping run is about to go into Wormwood Mutiny, and this is bound to come up. I know what the RAI is, but I'm a bit less clear about the RAW after a couple discussions that seem that they might be similar.
Tidepool Dragon's use power reads as such: "Recharge this card to add 2 and the Fire trait to any combat or Perception check. Then roll 1d12; on a 1, banish this card and each character at your location takes 1 Fire damage."
The RAW confusion: how does this banish ever happen?
1. You recharge before resolving Dragon's effects.
2. Then you apply the bonus to your check.
3. Then you roll d12.
3a. On 2-12, you're fine.
3b. On 1, this card is no longer in your hand to be banished, and so can't be banished? Asbestos shields are still required, of course.
Am I missing something?
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I think it's just one of those times where you're expected to think "Ok, they aren't going to give me an instruction is impossible 100% of the time, so they obviously want the card banished even though it isn't in my hand anymore.
To me, it's just a power that requires the use of a little common sense. However, in keeping consistent with the usual wording of powers, it probably should say "banish this card instead".
Who says it has to be in your hand to be banished? Spells set a precedent of banishing from your discard pile if you don't have the requisite skill (you discard them, do their thing, then banish it), so I don't see why Tidepool Dragon can't be banished from the bottom of your deck - you know exactly where it is after all (that said I personally wouldn't put it on the bottom until after I roll the d12 in order to avoid having to pull it back out).
That said, adding "instead of recharging it" would also clear up any confusion :)
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The rules say that unless a card says otherwise, the action must come from your hand.
Like I said, I think this is a common sense ruling, like the mentioned examples of spells. I suggest adding "instead", but it may be that it is intended for it to be recharged first, not and either/or, so anything triggering off of recharges could still go off.
Who says it has to be in your hand to be banished? Spells set a precedent of banishing from your discard pile if you don't have the requisite skill (you discard them, do their thing, then banish it), so I don't see why Tidepool Dragon can't be banished from the bottom of your deck - you know exactly where it is after all (that said I personally wouldn't put it on the bottom until after I roll the d12 in order to avoid having to pull it back out).
That said, adding "instead of recharging it" would also clear up any confusion :)
I agree that it's RAI to roll the d12 before recharging, since that's actually how spells work by RAW (at least in S&S.) :)
"Discard to X. After playing this card, if you don't have Y skill, banish this card; otherwise, attempt a Y # check to recharge this card instead of discarding it."
Also, the card might not be at the bottom of your deck (eg, it was shuffled by Lem's power.)
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That said, I could just be reading too far into this card, and that sticking to RAI will serve us better. :)
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Adding an edit here. If spells work in that order:
-Discard
-Do the effect
-Check banish
-Check recharge
That means that I should be able to cast a Cure spell, and have it affect its own card (randomly or by Swab) because the spell's in the discard pile while it's being played.
That... doesn't seem right.
Cure is very specifically worded to avoid that possibility.
Reveal this card and choose a character at your location. Shuffle 1d4+1 random cards from his discard pile into his deck, then discard this card.
So you don't discard Cure until after the shuffling.
In RotR, their was language about cards being in "limbo" in situations like this:
If, while attempting another check, you play a boon that you may be able to recharge, resolve the current check before attempting to recharge the card. The boon is in play (and does not count as being in your hand, in your deck,in your discard pile, or elsewhere) during the intervening time.
The Tidepool Dragon is slightly different since you aren't attempting to recharge it, but I think the general principle is obvious.
You basically have two options:
1. Interrupt the check to quickly roll for the Tidepool Dragon when you play it.
2. Set the Tidepool Dragon aside and then roll for it after you complete the check.
I'd personally choose option 2.
Cure is very specifically worded to avoid that possibility.
Reveal this card and choose a character at your location. Shuffle 1d4+1 random cards from his discard pile into his deck, then discard this card.So you don't discard Cure until after the shuffling.
I coulda sworn... I stand corrected on that, then.
In RotR, their was language about cards being in "limbo" in situations like this:
If, while attempting another check, you play a boon that you may be able to recharge, resolve the current check before attempting to recharge the card. The boon is in play (and does not count as being in your hand, in your deck,in your discard pile, or elsewhere) during the intervening time.
Ahh. I only have S&S (for now,) and that makes things much clearer - including when applied as a general:
"If, while attempting another check, you play a boon that you may (or might be required to) roll to manipulate in a different way, resolve the current check before attempting the roll. The boon is in play (and does not count as being in your hand, your deck, your discard pile, etc.) during the intervening time."
The Tidepool Dragon is slightly different since you aren't attempting to recharge it, but I think the general principle is obvious.
You basically have two options:
1. Interrupt the check to quickly roll for the Tidepool Dragon when you play it.
2. Set the Tidepool Dragon aside and then roll for it after you complete the check.I'd personally choose option 2.
Sounds perfect.
Thanks for clearing it up, all! :)
Chief Technical Officer
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Here's the rule change we're considering to explain the Schrödinger's cat "was it recharged or was it banished" thing....
In Playing a Card, following this bit (quote may be slightly out-of-date, but no matter):
Always perform the first action required by a power before performing any other action. For example, if a card says “Recharge this card to recharge a card from your discard pile,” recharge the card you’re playing before recharging the card from your discard pile.
I'd add these:
After you perform an action, an effect might cause another action to happen instead of the action you originally performed. For example, a spell might tell you to discard it, then allow you to succeed at a check to recharge it instead. In such a case, the original action is considered to have never happened (so the spell in the example would not trigger any effects that happen when a card is discarded).
Cards often have instructions that you need to follow after you play the card; follow these instructions even if the card is no longer in your hand (even if the card is out of your sight, such as in the box or in a deck).
Comments?
So, the spell would go to the discard pile, but then you would attempt the recharge check? And if toy succeeded it works be recharged and not considered discarded at Abby point?
Assuming that is right, why not just revert to something like the original rule from RotR, setting it aside and bit considering it anywhere? If the action to play is shuffling, then you will have to search your deck to find the card if you succeed at a "disposition" check. Plus, a fair amount of time might pass before you attempt the "disposition" check. If I've recharged, shuffled, or banished the card, I might forget the difficulty of the "disposition" check if it is out of sight.
And, while I'm not sure anything like this exists, but that might tie your hands with bane powers like "if you discard any cards during this encounter, the difficulty is increased by 3." My card might be temporarily discarded, only to be retconned as recharged. All that seems confusing.
That is assuming I've understood correctly. I think I'd rather have them be in limbo or even displayed until resolved. Even if something comes along that messes with all displayed cards, I could live with that. In fact, I would probably like it.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I think what you're trying to say is something like this:
If the first action required by a power could possibly be changed to a different action by a card or power, put the card into limbo [or display it] until the possibility is resolved, then do the action.
The problem is that it's possible for other cards to introduce the possibility of change to a card, meaning you wouldn't have known that you needed to put that card into limbo (or displayed it) until after you would have put it into limbo.
And since it's possible for pretty much *any* action to be changed, possibly until the end of the check (if not the encounter), that means the limbo rule would *really* need to say "Put all cards you play into limbo (or display them) until the end of the check."
But if *every* card you played had to go into limbo (or be displayed) until the check is resolved, then (for just one example), you couldn't do the thing with Lini where you reveal an Animal for her power then play it for its own power on the same check, because it would be in limbo (or displayed) during the later step.
Really the only issue I can see is with shuffling cards into decks, for everything else that seems fine. I'm not saying that if something shuffles in and then we put it back to our hand instead that we reorder the deck to how it was before we shuffled (that would be silly, we only consider the action as not having happened, even if it has; we don't reverse it), but it still means we got a free shuffle out of our decks. This has the slight implication of moving recharged cards higher up for free, essentially. And what if we needed to shuffle something into the location deck but then didn't afterwards? We can't exactly look at every card in the location deck to pull the card we just put in back out.
I think the rule is good if it also goes with an errata on all "shuffle this into your deck to do X, oh jk discard/recharge/banish/keep it in your hand instead" to have them displayed to do their power, then if you succeed at Y recharge/discard/whatever it, else shuffle it into your deck.
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Chief Technical Officer
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If the action to play is shuffling, then you will have to search your deck to find the card if you succeed at a "disposition" check. Plus, a fair amount of time might pass before you attempt the "disposition" check. If I've recharged, shuffled, or banished the card, I might forget the difficulty of the "disposition" check if it is out of sight.
Despite everything I've said above about what's possible, there's also the issue of what's probable. Let's say we're using the rules proposed a couple of posts up, and you've got a hypothetical ally that says (making the most of your example) "Shuffle this card into your deck to explore your location. If you defeat a monster on this exploration, discard this card instead of shuffling it into your deck." You and I both know that we're going to set that ally aside until the exploration is over (or at least until we defeat a monster), and then we're going to resolve everything, even though that's not exactly what the rules say. And if it ends up that the ally was supposed to have been shuffled into the deck, and the encounter somehow ended with an effect that had you bury cards out of your deck, you'd make sure that the ally is shuffled into the deck before you bury those cards (because that's what the rules want)... but if it ends up that the ally was supposed to have been discarded, and the encounter ends with an effect that had you bury cards out of your deck, you'd make sure that the ally is discarded before you bury those cards (because that's what the rules want).
I'd add these:
Comments?After you perform an action, an effect might cause another action to happen instead of the action you originally performed. For example, a spell might tell you to discard it, then allow you to succeed at a check to recharge it instead. In such a case, the original action is considered to have never happened (so the spell in the example would not trigger any effects that happen when a card is discarded).
Cards often have instructions that you need to follow after you play the card; follow these instructions even if the card is no longer in your hand (even if the card is out of your sight, such as in the box or in a deck).
I'd just add one other line just to Lem-proof the new rule:
"(even if the card is out of your sight, such as in the box or in a deck. If the card is in an unknown position in a deck due to shuffling, search the deck for the card and follow the required instruction, then shuffle the deck.)"
Of course, there's still the problem of shuffles into location decks that could happen (eg, with Albatross,) as skizzers notes.
Despite everything I've said above about what's possible, there's also the issue of what's probable. Let's say we're using the rules proposed a couple of posts up, and you've got a hypothetical ally that says (making the most of your example) "Shuffle this card into your deck to explore your location. If you defeat a monster on this exploration, discard this card instead of shuffling it into your deck." You and I both know that we're going to set that ally aside until the exploration is over (or at least until we defeat a monster), and then we're going to resolve everything, even though that's not exactly what the rules say. And if it ends up that the ally was supposed to have been shuffled into the deck, and the encounter somehow ended with an effect that had you bury cards out of your deck, you'd make sure that the ally is shuffled into the deck before you bury those cards (because that's what the rules want)... but if it ends up that the ally was supposed to have been discarded, and the encounter ends with an effect that had you bury cards out of your deck, you'd make sure that the ally is discarded before you bury those cards (because that's what the rules want).
Ok. I can live with that. I was going to say that for the majority of these situations, they are happening in the order you choose. So you should know whether you have the attack trait or not. But your comment works just fine.
In actual play, I often set the cards aside as I'm figuring things out, making a bury stack, a discard stack, a recharge stack, etc. Assembling the dice as I go. Then once I've already assembled the dice, I put the cards where the belong (or sometimes even after I roll). So I totally get what you are saying about the practical outcome of what the rules want being the important thing.
So in reality, just make sure it is shuffled, discarded, banished, or whatever by the time other things will care about the place that card should be.
I'm trying to think. Aren't there cards that can mess with your discard pile, making you bury cards from it? I think most of those say "if undefeated" which wouldn't really happen until after the recharge check. So that doesn't seem to apply.
But if something said, "If you fail a check, bury a random card from your discard pile" that would be an issue.
The closest thing I could find to what I was talking about was The Fever Sea Maruauder.
After you act, if the check to defeat has the Swashbuckling trait, bury all items in your discard pile.
It would only apply if an item was discarded to play that might get recharged at after the encounter was over.
Mokmurian's Club also comes close to creating a problem. It says "If you defeat a monster while playing this weapon, recharge a random card form your discard pile." If it has said "If you succeed at a check to defeat a monster while playing this weapon..." that would be a problem.
But all these examples never really seem to create a problem, since the thing affecting your discard pile wouldn't happen until after you'd already attempted the recharge check of a spell.
Found a real one this time. Life Leech, from the Bard, Fighter, Wizard and Sorcerer Class Decks.
For your combat check, discard this card to use your Arcane skill + 2d4. Shuffle 1d4+1 random cards from your discard pile into your deck.
I suppose that can be reworded so that the shuffle comes first, thus avoiding the problem for this particular card being in your discard pile when you get random cards from it. But is there anything else that would be played during the encounter before this attempt the check, and specifically before you determine the skill that would be temporarily discarded but would have a recharge check after you determine the skill? If so, Life Leech will mess with that.
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The major issue I can foresee is the instance where someone wants to use a card that instructs them to shuffle their deck (like Monkey's Paw), and they play that specifically to manipulate their deck (e.g., they want to get their just-recharged Cure spell closer to the top). Or vice versa: they don't want to play a card instructing them to shuffle because they used a power that lets them put a valuable card on top of their deck (and they want to keep that card on top).
What we have with the probable "we all know someone just isn't going to shuffle until the end of their check / exploration / whatever, even though the rules say to do the first action and then undo it" resolution is the fact that people who want to shuffle to get that cure are going to be literal with the rule and will shuffle (and realistically you can't undo the shuffle), and the people who don't want to do that so that they keep their Augury on top of their deck will be lazy and invoke the "the previous action shouldn't have happened so I won't do it" and won't shuffle.
But maybe I'm missing something here...
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Chief Technical Officer
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Found a real one this time. Life Leech, from the Bard, Fighter, Wizard and Sorcerer Class Decks.
For your combat check, discard this card to use your Arcane skill + 2d4. Shuffle 1d4+1 random cards from your discard pile into your deck.I suppose that can be reworded so that the shuffle comes first, thus avoiding the problem for this particular card being in your discard pile when you get random cards from it. But is there anything else that would be played during the encounter before this attempt the check, and specifically before you determine the skill that would be temporarily discarded but would have a recharge check after you determine the skill? If so, Life Leech will mess with that.
That is an interesting case to examine.
Anything that buries cards from the top of your deck will be a problem with 'shuffle in' powers. Particularly if you have two copies of the card you shuffled in and don't know if you need to banish the buried one or the one in your deck. Or maybe it turns out that you should discard the card that was shuffled in, in which case a different card might need to be buried. This would become a strategic choice when you deecide whether to play Aid on your recharge roll.
If you have recharged to top-decked cards after shuffling in a card that should have been discarded then you need to separate them out from the cards that are reshuffled.
If limbo lasts until a card's final destination is known (instead of the effect of the card being finished), then reveal powers aren't a problem. However, I prefer to be able to read all the cards with powers that are currently in effect. Someone might decide to play a card with an effect based on the traits of a previously played card, suddenly making it relevant whether you played a card with the Swashbuckling trait.
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Chief Technical Officer
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We're going to try something else. Don't worry so much about the wording here, just the concept. This would go in "Playing Cards," after the list of possible actions:
When you reveal a card, it does not leave your hand. When you display a card, it leaves your hand immediately. When you play a card by performing any other action, set it aside while you process its effects; while set aside, it does not count as being in your hand, your discard pile, your deck, or anywhere else.
I believe that even with that, we still also need to say "Cards often have instructions that you need to follow after you play the card; follow these instructions even if the card is no longer in your hand (even if the card is out of your sight, such as in the box or in a deck)."
I think that is one of two ways of going about this (the other being a massive errata to every non-reveal/display card to have it displayed for its power and then discarded/shuffled/banished/whatever afterward - and you'll still need that "follow these instructions" note anyway even in this case). Considering this method (introducing a limbo zone) is far simpler, it gets my vote
What does "while you process its effects" mean? For example, say I'm making a combat check. I play a Longsword, by discarding it, and the spell Aid. Am I finished processing the effects of the Longsword once I assemble the dice, or perhaps once I roll them? Am I basically getting up the the roll then finishing the action on all the cards that are finished at that point, but keeping aside the ones that aren't fully resolved (checks or other outcomes might change their disposition)?
I think that the tricky thing we are trying to work out here is that you can play lots of cards during a check and that other cards played during the same check might change how you play those cards.
For example, say you play a weapon name Super Arcane Sword. It is basically a Longsword that also says that if you combat check has the Arcane trait you can recharge the Super Arcane Sword instead of discarding it. And say that weapon does not have the Arcane trait. Now say there is some ally that discards to add the 1d6 and the Arcane trait to any check, we'll call him Arcane Guy. And I also play Aid. Do I do the following:
1. Set my Super Arcane Sword aside during "Determine Which Skill..."
2. Set Arcane Guy and Aid aside during "Play Cards and Use Powers..."
3. Assemble my dice and, now knowing that my check has the Arcane trait, recharge the Super Arcane Longsword and discard Arcane Guy, since their effects are done.
4. Roll my dice.
5. Take Damage If Necessary
6. Attempt the recharge check on Aid, and put it wherever it should go, since its effects are now fully resolved.
If so, I'm thinking this works out well. And in truth that is how I'm often really doing things anyway, so I can keep reading the powers until I've got all the dice ready, even for "simple" cards. Even for Life Leech you'd set it aside, heal yourself, then wait to for the recharge check later.
This also clears up things for Detect Magic or even the Farglass, since you set them aside until you finish examining and encountering or reordering.
So, basically, it'd be making official what people tend to do anyway: lay out the cards, process, then dispose. I like it. :)
The extra text would be useful to address Heggal+Swab, and future-proof against similar situations.
I doubt I'll think of anything better. I think some examples might be the best thing. It seems like any card played during a check that isn't going to have its disposition changed after the check gets "resolved" when you assemble your dice, that way they are where they should be when you take damage or fail the check. So an example showing that "simple" weapons are set aside until you assemble your dice, while spells that require checks to resolve are set aside until the next check.
This sounds really good, at least in my opinion.
When you reveal a card, it does not leave your hand. When you display a card, it leaves your hand immediately. When you play a card by performing any other action, set it aside while you process its effects; while set aside, it does not count as being in your hand, your discard pile, your deck, or anywhere else.
Does being set aside differ from being displayed, except that the time at which the card goes away is harder to describe?
I think that the wording on cards combined with these instructions could be confusing. If I set a card aside, why would I think that it is in my discard pile or deck? That text suggests that a card both is and isn't in my discard pile and on the bottom of my deck when I've played something that I might recharge.
Do cards stay out
* until you've executed everything on the card,
* until the effects generated by the card are over,
* until you think that they are no longer relevant, or
* until you know that nothing more can happen with the card?
If multiple cards have their effects end at the same time, do they go away in the order in which they were played?
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Chief Technical Officer
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Displayed cards count as being in play wherever they are (next to your character deck, next to a location deck, or wherever), and they can be affected by other cards (for example, if a power had you banish all cards displayed next to your character deck), and their own powers can make them go away (for example, if it said something like "while displayed, if you attempt a check against a monster, add 1d6 and banish this card").
Set aside cards don't count as being anywhere. I really don't get how "it does not count as being in your hand, your discard pile, your deck, or anywhere else" suggests that it "both is or isn't in your discard pile." It's explicitly not in your discard pile, or anywhere else. If, for example, while such a card is set aside, another card said to bury your discard pile, your set-aside card would not be buried.
As I've said, it's really hard to tell you when set-aside cards stop being set aside, other than "until you're done processing its effects," because it very much depends not only on what the card itself says, but on the abilities other cards may have to affect that processing. Of your four choices, the second is not a good answer because other cards might still affect them; the more accurate answer would probably be "when both the first and fourth are likely to be true."
As with anything in the game, if things happen at the same time, you choose the order... but odds are good that the order you played them will mean that they're not likely to resolve at the same time. (This may also have an effect on the order.)
Thanks for the clarification. I think that four implies one. Four also implies knowing which cards exist in some cases. Your statements changed my expectation of how a combat check would work. This topic deserves an elaborate example.
When the rules say 'does not count as being in your discard pile', I think some people will think that this implies that cards in play may actually sitting in the discard pile. Many people will probably put cards in the discard pile with the mental note that it is still in play but they may need to fish it out later. (This is one of the more common ways that I've seen people play.) The suggested clarification '(even if the card is out of your sight, such as in the box or in a deck)' might further the confusion, but you did say that it was talking about cards which have already been played.
I can help with a combat check sequence. This should make it clear:
1. Resolve the "when you encounter" step.
2. Resolve your choice to evade, if possible and desired.
3. Resolve the "before you act" step.
4. Play the cards you intend to play for the encounter's check. Keep reveals in your hand; "set aside" the others.
5. Resolve the check. This usually involves assembling and throwing your dice.
6. Dispose of the cards played in step 4. Revealed cards already went back to your hand; but dispose of the other cards with recharge, discard, etc, as appropriate. Note that displayed cards have a defined time when you should dispose of them; for such cards, follow their rule as usual.
7. Take damage based on your margin of failure, if applicable (ie, against monsters.)
8. Resolve the "after you act" step.
9. Clean up the encounter. If the card has sequential checks, repeat 3-9 for each.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Not that simple, I'm afraid.
The common recharge template for spells and items has you deal with them after you take damage (not before, as you suggest, since taking damage is the last part of attempting a check, and you need to finish the current check before you start a new one). But that answer doesn't work for everything: Imagine a card that said "Discard this card to add 1d6 to your combat check against a monster. If the monster is defeated, recharge the card instead of discarding it." That card would need to hang out until you resolve the *encounter*, not just the check. There's just not a one-size-fits-all solution to this.
Awesome, thanks! :)
Does Demon Hunter's Handbook break this rules change? Or are you supposed to do the recharge/reveal before you perform the check that it is modifying?
Does Demon Hunter's Handbook break this rules change? Or are you supposed to do the recharge/reveal before you perform the check that it is modifying?
It would have broken the rule before the change. "Recharge... check to reveal instead of recharging" would have you pulling it back into your hand from the bottom of your deck if the outcome were "reveal."
Now, you set aside, do your check against the bane, then check whether the Handbook is recharged or taken back in hand (outcome of revealed.)
Right. Basically, anything that is a straight "reveal" is immediately back in your hand. But anything that has a check to change to "reveal" is out of your hand until you make that check. That means if you take a full hand worth of damage on a check where you played the Demon Hunter's Handbook, you can still succeed at the "reveal" check and have it back in your hand.
Do you get to keep it out of your hand that long? Cards that are revealed for a power continue to have their effects, so potentially you should do the 'reveal check' immediately after playing it to find out if it is in your hand or in limbo until it is recharged. If you expect to take lots of damage, you might choose to fail the check, of course.
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Personally I think anything that could change how you play a card should be immediate, as part of playing the card. So you say you're playing Acid Arrow, and immediately roll to see if you discard or recharge it.
Obvious exceptions for things like a card recharging instead of discarding if you defeat the bane or things like that. Basically, as soon as possible, you determine how the card is played, and if you have to wait because it's based on something like defeating a monster, it sits in limbo until then.
If you've ever played Magic, think of it as putting it on the stack. You add actions to the stack, then resolve them in reverse order (newest to oldest)
Combat check:
Acid Arrow
(deals Arcane +2d4)
THEN:
(banish if no Arcane)
(discard if Arcane)
(recharge on Arcane 8)
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Yes but that doesn't help with things that can turn from recharge to reveal. You have to take the card from your deck, or leave it in limbo in recharge vs reveal is determined (which is now how it is). However, it makes more sense to just immediately (or as soon as humanly possible) handle how you play it instead of creating another semi-zone of the game where the card sits until you make that determination.