
Genesist |
If you have a character with claws, that is holding a reach weapon, would they be able to let go of the reach weapon with 1 hand to deliver an AOO with a claw when an enemy moves from a spaced provoked by the reach weapon, to one provoked by the claw. I believe the same question can be put forward with a gauntlet.
My confusion lies in whether you can count as threatening properly with both weapons, when you must let go of the reach weapon with 1 hand during the process to deliver the potential AOO.

Claxon |

Further, you can't even make an attack with the weapon and claws at the same time.
If you attack with a two handed weapon, you can make no claw attacks that round.
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.

Genesist |
Further, you can't even make an attack with the weapon and claws at the same time.
If you attack with a two handed weapon, you can make no claw attacks that round.
Quote:Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.
I never thought that you could attack with both during your turn.
The character is also not changing weapons, it is letting go of weapon, which is a free action.
I'm not at all sure that it is still possible, but I don't think the point has been addressed properly.

fretgod99 |

You can threaten with your claws, or you can threaten with your two-handed reach weapon. You cannot do both.
You can, however, attack with your two-handed reach weapon during your turn, then release one hand from the weapon as a free action at the end of your turn to threaten with your claw and potentially make AoO with your claw outside your turn. Or (likely more advantageously), you can attack with your claw during your turn then switch over to wielding your two-handed weapon using a free action at the end of your turn to threaten with the reach weapon.

fretgod99 |

More importantly, if someone moves from a space threatened by the reach weapon, the reach weapon makes the AoO. AoO occur when (or "before") the triggering event. What triggers the AoO for vacating a threatened space is the leaving of that threatened space. So the AoO comes when the enemy tries to leave the square threatened by the reach weapon. The enemy is still 10' away when the AoO is provoked, thus the claw couldn't make the AoO, anyway.
And, barring very limited exceptions (speaking is explicitly called out, rider effects on attacks like trip, grab, etc.), you cannot take free actions outside of your turn. So no grip switching if it's not your turn. You're stuck with wielding your weapons in whatever manner you were wielding them at the end of your turn.

Fergie |

This is a little vague in the rules, but the idea is that you are either holding the reach weapon in one hand, and thus have a hand free to make claw attacks, OR you are using both hands to wield the reach weapon, and thus threaten out to 10'.
You can switch things up DURING your turn, and even attack with spear, then drop spear and attack with claws, (or hold spear in one hand and attack with claw. But at the end of your turn, you are either HOLDING the spear, OR WIELDING it, but not both.

Kazaan |
You can make claw attacks as AoOs just as easily as you could make an AoO with an Unarmed Strike after attacking with your reach weapon (presuming you have IUS). Nothing compels you to use the same weapon you used for your full-attack routine to make your AoOs. So if you release your weapon with one hand, then your claw is now available with which to threaten (though, you no longer threaten with your weapon).

Fergie |

However, if you have a bite, gore, hoof, tail slap, tentacle, or wing buffet mmmmmm.... wing buffet..., you can threaten with both. Only claws and slams have a problem with using the same limb as your weapon.
Monks also get to make unarmed strikes with their hands full, and don't suffer the secondary weapon penalty (-5!) for attacking with natural weapons and manufactured weapons. Although, I'm not 100% if that penalty applies to AoOs...

fretgod99 |
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Imbicatus wrote:However, if you have a bite, gore, hoof, tail slap, tentacle, or wing buffet mmmmmm.... wing buffet..., you can threaten with both. Only claws and slams have a problem with using the same limb as your weapon.Monks also get to make unarmed strikes with their hands full, and don't suffer the secondary weapon penalty (-5!) for attacking with natural weapons and manufactured weapons. Although, I'm not 100% if that penalty applies to AoOs...
Monks still suffer from the -5 secondary weapon penalty for combining natural and manufactured weapons. However, AoO are not made during your turn when you would be combining the types of weapons. So even if you attack with a manufactured weapon on your turn, your primary natural weapon is still primary for an AoO.
Also, Monks aren't the only ones who can make US attacks with limbs other than their hands. Anybody with Improved Unarmed Strike can threaten with a kick. A creature's Unarmed Strike is its entire body.

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The easy way to guarantee you always threaten adjacent while wielding a reach weapon is to wear Armor Spikes (CRB). They cost 50 gp and weigh 10 pounds. That always works! No further discussion needed.
That said, this reach weapon fighter, and all the other reach fighters I have played, find it's not tactically important for a reach fighter to threaten adjacent. Seriously! It just does not matter very much.
More than a year ago all my reach fighters deliberately stopped threatening adjacent and I started recording when it mattered. Since then, in hundreds of fights over dozens of levels, it's mattered exactly 4 times: I missed out on one AoO, and thrice failed to give an ally a +2 flanking bonus. That's less than a 1% effect. Negligible.
I understand it seems like it should matter. Most people whose character wields a reach weapon seem to think it's really important. Most reach fighters seem to spend substantial resources making sure they can threaten adjacent. I've lost track of how many Toothy half-orcs wielding a reach weapon I've seen. Really though, if you actually track which weapon gets used when, I think you'll find it hardly matters.

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I understand it seems like it should matter. Most people whose character wields a reach weapon seem to think it's really important. Most reach fighters seem to spend substantial resources making sure they can threaten adjacent. I've lost track of how many Toothy half-orcs wielding a reach weapon I've seen. Really though, if you actually track which weapon gets used when, I think you'll find it hardly matters.
Toothy is hardly a substantial resource... At low levels it adds considerably more DPR - so in that sense it can be tactically important.
Having said that, I agree with you that if you are worried about losing out on potential AoO's it's not that big of a deal.
And at mid to higher levels when you start facing foes that have DR or require magical effects in order to hit them, well, that's when things like Toothy become a completely wasted resource.

GinoA |

The easy way to guarantee you always threaten adjacent while wielding a reach weapon is to wear Armor Spikes (CRB). They cost 50 gp and weigh 10 pounds. That always works! No further discussion needed.
Actually, no they don't. Well, unless you've got a one-handed reach weapon. FAQ

fretgod99 |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |

Magda Luckbender wrote:The easy way to guarantee you always threaten adjacent while wielding a reach weapon is to wear Armor Spikes (CRB). They cost 50 gp and weigh 10 pounds. That always works! No further discussion needed.Actually, no they don't. Well, unless you've got a one-handed reach weapon. FAQ
That's not what that FAQ means. You can wield, threaten with, and even use both weapons in the same round. What you cannot do is get extra attacks with armor spikes by way of TWF.
For instance, if you have multiple attacks due to having a high base attack bonus, you can use your reach weapon for all those attacks, your armor spikes for all those attacks, or mix and match your reach weapon and your armor spikes. All that matters is that you are not using your armor spikes to make more attacks per round than your BAB allows, if you have attacked with your reach weapon at any point during your turn (and vice versa).

DM_Blake |

If you have a character with claws, that is holding a reach weapon, would they be able to let go of the reach weapon with 1 hand to deliver an AOO with a claw when an enemy moves from a spaced provoked by the reach weapon, to one provoked by the claw. I believe the same question can be put forward with a gauntlet.
My confusion lies in whether you can count as threatening properly with both weapons, when you must let go of the reach weapon with 1 hand during the process to deliver the potential AOO.
It's a free action to let go of a weapon. You cannot take free actions except when it is your turn. So you cannot let go of your weapon as part of an AoO. By RAW.
See the FAQ..
Presumably, you could use your round to attack with your reach wewapon and then, at the end of your round, let go with one claw as a free action - now your claw threatens all adjacent squares. But if you do this, you're merely carrying your reach weapon (not wielding it) so you don't threaten the "reach" squares.
In order to threaten those "reach" squares you need two hands on your reach weapon. And if you want to also threaten adjacent squares at the same time, you need a different melee attack that doesn't use those hands (such as a bite).

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A few days ago my PC nearly missed two more AoOs for not threatening adjacent. Didn't quite happen, but was close. Here's how it went down:
The PCs were in battle with a bunch of evil human minions. The foe seemed to be Rogues and Fighters armed primarily with Crossbows. My PC, Ben the Mystic Theurge, had just turned one minion, the first to fall, into a spray of red mist with a giant-sized AoO. On Ben's turn, now medium sized, he aggressively moved up on several crossbow-armed foes, deliberately stopping adjacent to one and growling spittle in his face. Note that the crossbowmen were protected by Difficult Terrain, which was negated by the PCs all having the Featherstep buff. I reminded the GM that Ben did not actually threaten adjacent.
The adjacent crossbow-armed foe could have taken a careful point-blank aimed shot at Ben, with no fear of an AoO. The GM determined that, instead, the guy got kind of panicky about being adjacent to a hostile killer spell-casting giant, and tried to Withdraw. Well, of course, withdraw only prevents an AoO for the first space moved, not the second. When the hapless foe moved out of the second square he took Ben's polearm AoO and became another spray of red mist.
Ben then moved adjacent to another foe, mostly to see what would happen. Again, the foe assume d that Ben threatened adjacent and attempted to tumble out of range to shoot. The GM knew better, he was just having fun with us and attempting to play the foes realistically. The foe missed his CMB check and became another spray of red mist.
Had the foes been just a bit more capable they would have fired missile weapons at Ben, point blank, without provoking an AoO. Ben's aggressive moves adjacent to the foes were a bluff, and they did not call his bluff.
Ben later died on this mission. He was raised from the dead and restored, but is now flat broke with no Prestige. The death occurred because Ben was slightly careless: in combat pre-buffs he blew his UMD check for Shield, and carelessly did not repeat the UMD attempt to have Shield active. Ben has killed by HP damage that would have missed, had Shield been active. Such a little thing ...