Here's how I view things, you got your monsters and you got your PC approved races.... maybe it's just me thinking this but I've always preferred games and such where any options the monsters and enemies so do you and vice versa. To me this set the standard that if you fail it's because you suck not the enemy having some overpowered bullshit or once again vice. Versa. Idk am I the only person that this seems to bother?, don't get me wrong I like pathfinder but this kind of bothers me.
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Doesn't bother me at all. There are some abilities that players simply shouldn't have that it's fine for GMs to have access to.
The reason is that you have to expect a player to attempt to make optimal use of his abilities, and use them whenever the mood strikes him, even (or sometimes especially) if it will bring a swift end to the plot. The GM, on the other hand, will (or at least should ...) use such abilities judiciously and when plot-relevant.
Also, PCs and NPCs occupy completely different design space. A PC is intended to be around for the long haul. A combatant NPC is expected to live perhaps three rounds of actual combat. With that in mind, as well as the fact that each player only controls one* character, while the GM may have to control four or five on his own, meaning it's hard for him to be tactically efficient**, means the monsters need some extra oomph.
*Blah familiars blah summons blah mount blah
**Seriously, how many times have you seen a GM go 'gah, I forgot he could do that?'
Surely the point of a heroic fantasy is that you take on powerful enemies and overwhelming odds. Sometimes there are gimmicks, or pointless know-it-or-fail tactics. But that's why you have knowledge checks and a smidgeon of metagame knowledge.
You could also play a campaign where every BBEG is a 20-point-buy player race. That could well be a great campaign. A smart DM using characters intelligently can be a thing to behold.
Life is not always fair. Beating the unfairness can be brilliant. Losing to it is deflating. Talk to your DM and expect table variation.
The main reason you can't play as monsters is the balancing therein. If you can bypass that-- via an uncaring GM, a level adjustment, a boost to all of your party members, etc.-- you can certainly play as a monster.
Or is there some other kind of option you're thinking of?
well I mean things like blind sense, Dr, or even riders bond style telepathy for PCs is costly and a pain to get and in a way can limit role playing. Honestly I hate how everything's based on stuff, if you want to do cool things you need cool stuff to do it. Even when making a race everyone says blindsense is overpowered I want to say compared to what? It is all just to limiting, I can understand mechanically why but monsters can do it without stuff PCs have to do it with stuff, I ask where's the balance when with a simple thought a gm can make monster easily just as tough if not tougher than any PC.
PCs should be able to build any type of character they want and not be over shadowed by the friggin wizard
There seem to be two types of game (when well run):
The first is where the DM and the players cooperatively tell a story, and the challenge is appropriately pegged to the party. Things can be hard, but challenges should be manageable with some lateral thinking, planning and resource use.
The second is DM vs the party. That can get ugly fast. A party of low level, low system mastery humans in a lightless environment can get nasty fast if the DM is in a bad mood.
I understand the purpose of balance in that sense I see templates as a gm tool not player, but monster feat provided you meet the qualifications should be available to players as well because I assume by raw they aren't. Idk even know how to explain this I'm horrible with explanation.
Tell us what happened. Specifically.
Nothing its just something I've been contemplating lately, specifically I just finished making a race for a homebrew setting g and I generally make races, one comment said blind sense is to powerful to give a race and I'm trying to keep t but balance it. They offered alternatives like scent and dark vision but those don't fit, that's kind of when I started thinking about it but other than that nothing happened in my group to inspired it we all kind of run the same house rules for things and r all cool with them.
I understand the purpose of balance in that sense I see templates as a gm tool not player, but monster feat provided you meet the qualifications should be available to players as well because I assume by raw they aren't. Idk even know how to explain this I'm horrible with explanation.
Let me try and take a whack at this...
Remember that this game has to be challenging at all levels. That means that there has to be some monsters which have abilities that challenge (say) a 20th-level party. That monster HAS to have abilities that a 1st-level player character can't have, to make that challenge.
Let's do this as a thought-experiment. Let's make a CR20 monster (very reasonable challenge for a 20th-level party, you expect the party to beat). Let's give it an ability called... oh... indestructible. We say that ability gives the monster regeneration equal to any amount of damage it has taken this round. So, the party all whack the monster with swords and fireball and the like, and it gets all messed up, but then its wounds instantly heal and it strikes back!
Terror, yes? It'll take the party a round or two to figure out their tactics just aren't working, and they'll have to try other things. Like say... flesh to stone. Okay, monster defeated, emergency over. But for a couple rounds, this was an INTERESTING fight!
So how can you let a 1st-level player character have that ability?
Right. You can't. You just can't. It's simply too powerful at 1st-level and every player would automatically pick it so they could never get killed by damage.
But it's a cool ability, right? So hey, we've just learned that it's a GOOD thing that some abilities are monster-only. Because if we insist everyone eats from the same menu at this restaurant, our awesome CR20 monster simply can't exist.
Next, I've got one more point to make... remember that monsters are expected to challenge a party of FOUR player characters. You don't throw a single 1st-level human barbarian against a part of 1st-level PCs. Not if you expect to challenge them, because it's literally four-on-one.
So you deliberately make monsters tougher than PCs. You give them neat things like wings, blood-draining, paralysis (at will), auras of fear, the ability to swallow their enemies, and so on.
Yes, that means there are awesome abilities that you - as a player - simply can't have. Because they're BROKEN in the hands of a player.
It's like giving everyone in a soccer game permission to use their hands (normally only the goalie is allowed). It makes the game... nonsense, because if they could carry the ball, it'd be super-hard to ever get it away from the guy who has it.
Some games, like chess or tennis, it makes sense for each side to be exactly equal. Other games (luck duck-hunting), it doesn't, because once you give the ducks rifles, it's just no fun anymore.
one comment said blind sense is to powerful to give a race
Well, blind sense is pretty powerful. Remember that most monsters don't get it. While you've got an awesome concept for a character, remember that for a GM, challenging the player is half of the game (the other half being story-telling).
Blind sense means nobody can ever sneak up on you. EVER.
That means that the entire Stealth skill might as well not exist if your PC is in the party. That means invisibility and everything like is very much less useful when you're around. It means that in a sandstorm, when normally sight just doesn't work, your PC can still fight/move. It means that fog, total darkness, and blindness don't have nearly the same impact on you that they normally would.
There's a huge list of things blind sense either negates or seriously changes. Many of those are classic challenges that are suddenly taken away from the DM.
What about the classic illusory carpet over a pit in the floor? Oh, no, your character automatically recognizes there's only a hole.
See, we totally get it that character ideas are awesome, and inspiration is everywhere in books and in movies, but some abilities just don't work in the hands of players in an interactive storytelling RPG.
Hopefully this helps?
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PCs should be able to build any type of character they want and not be over shadowed by the friggin wizard
The proper solution here is to reduce the wizard's power, not make everybody a game-breaking monstrosity.
I understand the purpose of balance in that sense I see templates as a gm tool not player, but monster feat provided you meet the qualifications should be available to players as well because I assume by raw they aren't. Idk even know how to explain this I'm horrible with explanation.Let me try and take a whack at this...
Remember that this game has to be challenging at all levels. That means that there has to be some monsters which have abilities that challenge (say) a 20th-level party. That monster HAS to have abilities that a 1st-level player character can't have, to make that challenge.
Let's do this as a thought-experiment. Let's make a CR20 monster (very reasonable challenge for a 20th-level party, you expect the party to beat). Let's give it an ability called... oh... indestructible. We say that ability gives the monster regeneration equal to any amount of damage it has taken this round. So, the party all whack the monster with swords and fireball and the like, and it gets all messed up, but then its wounds instantly heal and it strikes back!
Terror, yes? It'll take the party a round or two to figure out their tactics just aren't working, and they'll have to try other things. Like say... flesh to stone. Okay, monster defeated, emergency over. But for a couple rounds, this was an INTERESTING fight!
So how can you let a 1st-level player character have that ability?
Right. You can't. You just can't. It's simply too powerful at 1st-level and every player would automatically pick it so they could never get killed by damage.
But it's a cool ability, right? So hey, we've just learned that it's a GOOD thing that some abilities are monster-only. Because if we insist everyone eats from the same menu at this restaurant, our awesome CR20 monster simply can't exist.
Next, I've got one more point to make... remember that monsters are expected to challenge a party of FOUR player characters. You don't throw a single 1st-level...
but shouldn't there be a better balance to this? Sometimes things seem way to out of a players favor, I understand certain things players shouldn't have. But the system is way to reliant on stuff, if you want cool things like strength to charisma you waste feat, you want to play a monk you need an amulet of mighty fists because kung fu can't be effective without magic...
one comment said blind sense is to powerful to give a raceWell, blind sense is pretty powerful. Remember that most monsters don't get it. While you've got an awesome concept for a character, remember that for a GM, challenging the player is half of the game (the other half being story-telling).
Blind sense means nobody can ever sneak up on you. EVER.
That means that the entire Stealth skill might as well not exist if your PC is in the party. That means invisibility and everything like is very much less useful when you're around. It means that in a sandstorm, when normally sight just doesn't work, your PC can still fight/move. It means that fog, total darkness, and blindness don't have nearly the same impact on you that they normally would.
There's a huge list of things blind sense either negates or seriously changes. Many of those are classic challenges that are suddenly taken away from the DM.
What about the classic illusory carpet over a pit in the floor? Oh, no, your character automatically recognizes there's only a hole.
See, we totally get it that character ideas are awesome, and inspiration is everywhere in books and in movies, but some abilities just don't work in the hands of players in an interactive storytelling RPG.
Hopefully this helps?
I understand it is powerful but are'nt the classic gm things kind of boring? Blind sense doesn't sense mechanical traps, poison, doesn't help you fight an ogre, there are other ways to handle character with abilities. Its just the current balance prevents a lot of cool things from happening
PCs should be able to build any type of character they want and not be over shadowed by the friggin wizardThe proper solution here is to reduce the wizard's power, not make everybody a game-breaking monstrosity.
that's the thing though how do you reduce a wizard without crippling them?
Some games, like chess or tennis, it makes sense for each side to be exactly equal. Other games (like duck-hunting), it doesn't, because once you give the ducks rifles, it's just no fun anymore.
This is both true and awesome. Kudos.
The spirit of it feeds into the original question - why do you need exceptional adventurers when you're facing opponents who only have normal abilities? There are elements that should be beyond players, but they should be both uncommon and signposted. No-one should fight a blindsense enabled enemy in an area of deeper darkness without a strong hint this might happen. But if your DM has been telling you all along that you need powerful magical light sources then it's a different story.
because once you give the ducks rifles, it's just no fun anymore.
Sure it is! It's hilarious to watch the ducks try and manipulate it with their beaks or their cute little webbed feet. Usually they just honk in annoyance and poop on them, but whatever, it's not our fault they don't have opposable thumbs!
Doesn't logically follow. You've indicated that Indestructible is not a fair ability to give to a 1st level PC, which is not the same as not giving it to any PC. Your argument needs work.
As it happens, the argument stands fine as-is. The moment that something isn't appropriate for a 1st-level character, regardless of if it might be appropriate for a 20th-level character, it opens up a whole world of "sometimes 'no' is the right answer to the question 'can I have this?'"
because once you give the ducks rifles, it's just no fun anymore.Sure it is! It's hilarious to watch the ducks try and manipulate it with their beaks or their cute little webbed feet. Usually they just honk in annoyance and poop on them, but whatever, it's not our fault they don't have opposable thumbs!
What about auto targeting rifles MOUNTED on ducks?
but shouldn't there be a better balance to this? Sometimes things seem way to out of a players favor, I understand certain things players shouldn't have. But the system is way to reliant on stuff, if you want cool things like strength to charisma you waste feat, you want to play a monk you need an amulet of mighty fists because kung fu can't be effective without magic...
Well... here's the thing. This game has existed pretty much as you see it, for basically 15 years now. 3rd edition D&D, 3.5e, and Pathfinder are - at the heart - effectively one game. And it's the most popular tabletop RPG on the planet. Still.
So that should tell you something. Different players are attracted to different parts of the game, and we each have our pet peeves for sure, but Pathfinder's heart is that it's a HUGE Lego box that you can build an incredible assortment of things out of. Sure, some pieces are "better" than others, and if you're going to make a truck, you're probably going to want some of the "wheel" pieces, but... well... maybe you happen to feel like making your own wheels out of smaller parts.
There are definitely better choices in the game, and there are definitely things you "need" to give your characters in order to succeed but what you're perhaps seeing is that behind the curtain, there's simply an arms-race going on. The bad guy gets a bigger gun, so you need better armor. Rinse, repeat.
That happens in Pathfinder, as you've seen. As PCs start to dish out more damage in a round, bad guys need a} more hit points and b} more ways to reduce that damage to last for the usual four rounds.
Tricks like damage reduction are exactly that. You (generally) don't give a CR1 monster DR/magic because a 1st-level party WON'T have access to magic weapons, and you don't need to reduce their potency anyway. A CR4 monster, you might give DR/magic, because now the PCs are dishing out 15 points of damage a hit instead of 10. So you use DR 5/magic, and voila, you're back to a world where there's only 10 damage a hit, and you don't have to just give the monster a butt-tonne of hitpoints. (You do that to a DIFFERENT CR4 monster, so the players see more variety.)
At this point, the players see that in order to fight new, badder, more powerful monsters, they need magic weapons. So they get them, which pops the DM's cute little bubble. So next it's DR/cold iron. Or DR/adamantine. Or DR/silver. Or DR/good, or Fast Healing, or Regeneration, or... whatever.
But it's all still just an arms-race, where the players always want to dish out bigger numbers of damage, and the DM always wants to keep a typical fight seeming like a challenge.
That a monk needs an amulet of mighty fists isn't ANY different from a barbarian needing a magic greataxe. Yes, casters can get away without those items, but they have their own essential items too, to keep boosting their spell DCs for instance. Basically, at least half of your character's gold should USUALLY be spent on simple stat-boosting numbers-increasing items. The rest can usually be spent on neat stuff like flying carpets.
Remember, at its heart this game is absolutely, positively nothing but a big math equation.
Blind Sense is available to PCs. It requires a few hoops, but I can think of two ways to get it off the top of my head; and one requires only a single class level (Oracle dip). In-group telepathy is very easy; it just costs a (very, very small) amount of gold and a mid-level friendly Wizard.
The "compared to what" though? Compared to your party members. When Player 1 is massively better than Player 2, it makes the game less fun for somebody. Either Player 1 isn't going to be challenged, he's going to massively outshine Player 2, or both.
The level adjustment works because it makes you, personally, relatively less powerful in comparison to your allies. The same for making everybody into a monster: now everybody is equally powerful (assuming you picked monsters in the same range).
But human, dwarf, elf, Half-Dragon Advanced Minotaur is not a balanced party when all have the same class levels.
btw what oracle dip nets you blind sense?
but shouldn't there be a better balance to this? Sometimes things seem way to out of a players favor, I understand certain things players shouldn't have. But the system is way to reliant on stuff, if you want cool things like strength to charisma you waste feat, you want to play a monk you need an amulet of mighty fists because kung fu can't be effective without magic...Well... here's the thing. This game has existed pretty much as you see it, for basically 15 years now. 3rd edition D&D, 3.5e, and Pathfinder are - at the heart - effectively one game. And it's the most popular tabletop RPG on the planet. Still.
So that should tell you something. Different players are attracted to different parts of the game, and we each have our pet peeves for sure, but Pathfinder's heart is that it's a HUGE Lego box that you can build an incredible assortment of things out of. Sure, some pieces are "better" than others, and if you're going to make a truck, you're probably going to want some of the "wheel" pieces, but... well... maybe you happen to feel like making your own wheels out of smaller parts.
There are definitely better choices in the game, and there are definitely things you "need" to give your characters in order to succeed but what you're perhaps seeing is that behind the curtain, there's simply an arms-race going on. The bad guy gets a bigger gun, so you need better armor. Rinse, repeat.
That happens in Pathfinder, as you've seen. As PCs start to dish out more damage in a round, bad guys need a} more hit points and b} more ways to reduce that damage to last for the usual four rounds.
Tricks like damage reduction are exactly that. You (generally) don't give a CR1 monster DR/magic because a 1st-level party WON'T have access to magic weapons, and you don't need to reduce their potency anyway. A CR4 monster, you might give DR/magic, because now the PCs are dishing out 15 points of damage a hit instead of 10. So you use DR 5/magic, and voila, you're back to a world...
no wonder this bothers me I've always hated math with a fiery passion
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I understand it is powerful but are'nt the classic gm things kind of boring?
Boring? Hmmm.
Blind sense doesn't sense mechanical traps, poison, doesn't help you fight an ogre, there are other ways to handle character with abilities. Its just the current balance prevents a lot of cool things from happening
Okay, please understand I'm NOT trying to argue with you. I'm honestly trying to explain the philosophy behind THIS game. Doesn't mean a} I'm right or b} this game is right for you. So I'm NOT saying "you're wrong". I'm just exploring the things you say, to sound them out. As in, my tone here is intended to be friendly. We're chatting.
That said...
Classic GM things are boring... yet by including blindsense on a PC, I've REDUCED myself to mechanical traps because optical illusions or magical illusions are off the table. I've REDUCED my playbook to poison because I can't have an assassin sneak up. I've REDUCED fighting-an-ogre to "he swings at you", "he swings at you", and "he swings at you" because I can't use "he slides back into the misty fog somewhere and starts peppering you and your friends with thrown daggers", can't use "he throws a bag of sand in your face, temporarily blinding you", can't use "he's also a cleric and casts blindness on you!" and so on.
What I'm saying is that current balance doesn't PREVENT cool things from happening. It ENABLES cool things to happen.
Yes, specific cool things are prevented. Got it. Guy-who-can't-be-snuck-up-on is prevented when you don't let a PC have blindsense. That's true. But guy-who-can't-be-killed is just as awesome, but I think we'd both agree that's just... not fun.
One more example... typically low-level PCs aren't "allowed" to get flight. Flying changes the game. It takes away Climbing, for instance. So forget the scene where your character is dangling by one arm while trying to fend of a crazed harpy. Forget the scene where the rope bridge is cut by the enemy while you're only halfway across. Forget the scene were the princess sticks her head out of the window at the top of the tower and calls for help and you know you need to fight your way in the long way.
Some abilities change the game. Because of that some people prefer to only play 1st-level to about 5th-level, before fly becomes a thing. There are game-changer abilities, and that's about it.
because once you give the ducks rifles, it's just no fun anymore.Sure it is! It's hilarious to watch the ducks try and manipulate it with their beaks or their cute little webbed feet. Usually they just honk in annoyance and poop on them, but whatever, it's not our fault they don't have opposable thumbs!
You, sir, appear to be suffering from a supply of defective ducks. I assure you we have no such deficient ducks where I come from. <Grin>
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btw what oracle dip nets you blind sense?
Clouded Vision
Source Advanced Player's GuideYour eyes are obscured, making it difficult for you to see.
Effect
You cannot see anything beyond 30 feet, but you can see as if you had darkvision.
At 5th level, this distance increases to 60 feet.
At 10th level, you gain blindsense out to a range of 30 feet.
At 15th level, you gain blindsight out to a range of 15 feet.
I understand it is powerful but are'nt the classic gm things kind of boring?Boring? Hmmm.
Blind sense doesn't sense mechanical traps, poison, doesn't help you fight an ogre, there are other ways to handle character with abilities. Its just the current balance prevents a lot of cool things from happeningOkay, please understand I'm NOT trying to argue with you. I'm honestly trying to explain the philosophy behind THIS game. Doesn't mean a} I'm right or b} this game is right for you. So I'm NOT saying "you're wrong". I'm just exploring the things you say, to sound them out. As in, my tone here is intended to be friendly. We're chatting.
That said...
Classic GM things are boring... yet by including blindsense on a PC, I've REDUCED myself to mechanical traps because optical illusions or magical illusions are off the table. I've REDUCED my playbook to poison because I can't have an assassin sneak up. I've REDUCED fighting-an-ogre to "he swings at you", "he swings at you", and "he swings at you" because I can't use "he slides back into the misty fog somewhere and starts peppering you and your friends with thrown daggers", can't use "he throws a bag of sand in your face, temporarily blinding you", can't use "he's also a cleric and casts blindness on you!" and so on.
What I'm saying is that current balance doesn't PREVENT cool things from happening. It ENABLES cool things to happen.
Yes, specific cool things are prevented. Got it. Guy-who-can't-be-snuck-up-on is prevented when you don't let a PC have blindsense. That's true. But guy-who-can't-be-killed is just as awesome, but I think we'd both agree that's just... not fun.
One more example... typically low-level PCs aren't "allowed" to get flight. Flying changes the game. It takes away Climbing, for instance. So forget the scene where your character is dangling by one arm while trying to fend of a crazed harpy. Forget the scene where the rope bridge is cut by the enemy...
I understand, I'm not trying to argue either, I'm just trying to say that cool ideas for races can't exist because of the current status quo. At this point I understand there are two sides to the argument and would like to find a bridge one better than the current. Like the current blind sense at 30ft on a race to powerful yes, but can of be reduced or fixed so both the side who wants it can have a reduced version and the gm can still work with it.
btw what oracle dip nets you blind sense?Clouded Vision
Source Advanced Player's Guide
Your eyes are obscured, making it difficult for you to see.
EffectYou cannot see anything beyond 30 feet, but you can see as if you had darkvision.
At 5th level, this distance increases to 60 feet.
At 10th level, you gain blindsense out to a range of 30 feet.
At 15th level, you gain blindsight out to a range of 15 feet.
at that point isn't it not considered a dip? Isn't it more straight multiclassing at that point?
btw what oracle dip nets you blind sense?Clouded Vision curse.
An Oracle's Curse continues to progress with class levels other than Oracle, albeit at a slower rate (two non-Oracle levels = 1 Oracle level for the Curse). You typically see this for rage-cycling Barbarians; with the Lame curse, an Oracle 1/Barbarian 8 has an effective Oracle level of 5 for the purposes of the curse. Hello there Fatigue immunity.
For our purposes, we want the Clouded Vision curse, and more to the point we want its 10th-level ability; Blindsense 30'. One could pick it up with Oracle 10, of course. Or use Oracle 1/other classes 18. Or something in between the two.
The lower-leveled but more build intensive route is Dragon Disciple. Blindsense 30' is available with Disciple 5 (character level 10); going up to Disciple 10 boosts it to Blindsense 60', which is crazy-awesome.
A third option is to see if the GM would approve of applying Permanency to the Echolocation spell, which grants Blindsight 40' and is thus insanely cool.
Finally, if the GM is willing to allow 3.5 material, the Draconic Senses feat can grant Blindsense, though only out to 20' and only by taking another three feats.
There are probably more ways to get it but that's all I can name without doing research.
Not really. "Maybe later" is not the same as no. Blindsense is the obvious example that we seem to keep coming back to. Blindsense at level one seems to be something that the developers...Doesn't logically follow. You've indicated that Indestructible is not a fair ability to give to a 1st level PC, which is not the same as not giving it to any PC. Your argument needs work.As it happens, the argument stands fine as-is. The moment that something isn't appropriate for a 1st-level character, regardless of if it might be appropriate for a 20th-level character, it opens up a whole world of "sometimes 'no' is the right answer to the question 'can I have this?'"
I actually overlooked that it advances with other classes thing my bad
George: I'm not ridding out there, it's ridiculous!
Martin: But, you're the only one with horse, and a sword...um
Beatrice: And the lance, don't forget the lance
George: Are you people daft? That thing is twice the size of my horse! It flies, for God's sake!
Martin: I heard someone say it breathes fire, but I don't think that's true.
Beatrice: No, no, I heard Brother Giles say he saw it himself
Martin: Oh, right, the Falconer's cottage, ehhh, yeah, um, breathes fire.
George: You people are mad! Why on earth would I go against that thing?
Martin: Well, duh, no one is ever going to remember, George. But, Saint George the Dragon Slayer, that's, well,
Beatrice: That's got panache, that does
Martin: Oh, yes, certainly, panache
George: Saint George, you say? Hmmm, it doesn't sound bad. Sort of rolls of the tongue.
Alright. I'll do it. Where's my sword?
cool and all but the point?