[Encounter Balance] for CR 4

[Lord Fyre]

As an abstract, Which works better for a CR 4 encounter:

one CR 4 creature?

two CR 2 creatures?

three CR 1 creatures?

one CR 2 and three CR ½ creatures?

some other combo?

Which fight is the most dangerous?
Which fight lasts the longest?
Which fight is most fun? (for players/for GM)

[Mathius]

Part of this depends on party level.

Using foes APL-4 and below tends to be annoy more then anything else. Using creature at APL+4 tends to either kill the party or die very quickly. This much exaggerated at level 1. A CR 4 creature can easily lead to TPK while a 5th level party will usually eat a CP 8 for lunch.

In generally the smaller the number of foes the easier they to defeat. This becomes more and more true as level goes up. A 12 level party that has even a little warning has shot a CR 20 foe. It is just a matter of getting a Save of lose through.

A pair of critters is worth while only if their CR is higher then the party.

Three of same works well for APL to APL +2 encounters.

For APL +3 to 5 encounter I try and make sure that I at least 2 more creatures then party members.

The most challenging and fun encounters are APL + 4 or 5 with 2 BBEGs at a APL +1 or 2 and many mooks of APL-1 or 2.

This guide is great resource for this kind of thing.

[Dafydd]

Longest and most dangerous encounters are the ones with lots of foes. Mostly cause the party is spending more resources and actions to deal with each individual, as opposed to the single foe they kill with basic attack action economy.

A lot depends on party size, level, composition, and player's optimization and rules mastery however.

[Lord Fyre]

Dafydd wrote:

Longest and most dangerous encounters are the ones with lots of foes. Mostly cause the party is spending more resources and actions to deal with each individual, as opposed to the single foe they kill with basic attack action economy.

Like say, nine CR 1/3? That sounds like it would get tedious.

Mathius wrote:

Three of same works well for APL to APL +2 encounters.

This was intended as a "non-boss" encounter for a level 3 party of five heroes. So, three CR 1 would be the best bet.

Mathius wrote:

This guide is great resource for this kind of thing.

Reading this now.

[Undone]

Lord Fyre wrote:

As an abstract, Which works better for a CR 4 encounter:

one CR 4 creature?

two CR 2 creatures?

three CR 1 creatures?

one CR 2 and three CR ½ creatures?

some other combo?

Which fight is the most dangerous?
Which fight lasts the longest?
Which fight is most fun? (for players/for GM)

1) A Reduced CR over CR'ed creature is by far the hardest of all those. The Segathi using the young and simple templates is by far the most difficult CR 4 encounter I can come up with other than straight up cheating using haunt rules.

2) Template mutilation makes 2 CR 2 simple shadows MUCH more dangerous than most monsters.

3) One big monster heavily favors novaing for damage. A level 3 NPC caster and 3 level 1 fighters favors defensive stats because the caster gets more actions.

4)

Quote:

Longest and most dangerous encounters are the ones with lots of foes. Mostly cause the party is spending more resources and actions to deal with each individual, as opposed to the single foe they kill with basic attack action economy.

Nope. Actually lots of monsters are usually easily trivialized using less resources than novaing on a single above level monster Except at extremely low levels (1-4) where casters don't pack enough of a punch to defend themselves. At low levels mobs are dangerous but give me 16 level 1's over a single level 9 caster any day.

5) Let me tell you the story of what I consider to be the hardest room I've ever been in.

Warning Emerald spire spoilers

Spoiler:

When you are level 9 you walk into a room after (likely) being debuffed by a dispel magic traps and relics. This room you open to has fog spells cast in it and no where for wind spells to clear it. Inside 3 Seugathi levitating off the ground sit and force will saves and use detect thoughts for a directional pinpointing. These Seugathi provoke 3 will saves or more a round every turn you are inside the room.

TLDR; It depends.

[Mathius]

The guide will tell you this but you need to add 25 percent more exp to your encounters to get the same result.

Your budget for CR 4 encounter for 5 PC is 1500 point.

I would use a CR 3 for 800 a CR 1 for 400 and and 3 CR 1/2 to fill out the rest.

This encounter has 1 foe each PC but an AoE caster deals with the mooks while a melee guys can deal with a decent target that might take a more then one hit to fell.

If you have caster who has sleep of other low level save or die effect make sure that the CR 3 guy has good shot at resiting it.

[Mathius]

I love writing encounters. If you want give me an idea of the story relevance and theme I am willing to stat things out for your. It would also help if you could give a brief write up each PC. I do not need sheets, just race, class and general tactics.

[Issac Daneil]

Usually, that depends on; your team of PCs, and the variance of ability for the monsters you are using.

For example, in my games, no monster is more underpriced then a basic Orc Warrior. Our melee pcs, when knowledgable are terrified, and immediately consider their ranged options.

Conversely a wolf is worth more, and kinda weak sauce.

Goblins are only slightly below Orcs, but they're a joke.

So, it's about your party composition and the monsters you choose (if they are examples that defy CR expectations)

In my experience, a group heavy with SKills oriented characters tend to fall to large quantities of weaker monsters. 6 enemies vs 4-5 PCs, and you'll likely push the line, if they are mostly skill oriented.

Against melees, numerous enemies with debuffs can cripple them.
Against casters a single, obnoxiously strong monster can brutalize them quickly.

Use that kind of thinking when building your game, and you should challenge your Pcs fine.

[Gevaudan]

Monsters are not created equal at any CR.

At 3rd level, a single CR 3 Shadow stands a very good chance of starting a Shadow cascade and killing everyone. The party likely cannot even damage them.

Two shadows for 1600xp is a game ender if they attack a normal strength character and have initiative (3/4 attacks hit average touch for 10.5 strength damage).

Two wights would do the same thing but be easier to manage.

Ghouls are awesome for CR 1, with 3 paralyzing attacks.

Hard encounters for 1500xp:

1.) 3 ghouls, 3 rats [death by coup de grace]
2.) 1 shadow, 4 zombies [death by Shadow cascade]
3.) 3 small earth elementals gliding and power attacking plus a drow (darkness) and a deurgar (large/invisible). [death by damage and distraction]
4.) a lion, a leopard and 100xp more. [death by pounce]
5.) a black skeleton at 1600xp is a total mess for a level 3 party; my 6 member party barely survived this. A bearded devil will only be a little bit easier.