Multiple Creatures and Grab

[Krith]

So if I'm reading the rules correctly, multiple creatures cannot actually grapple the same opponent. The only thing they can do is Aid Another. This doesn't seem right as it then negates the Grab ability. It also doesn't seem to jive with common sense; if I get jumped by a pride of tigers, they're all gonna be grabbing and raking rather than having one "grab" and the rest opt not to get their share.

Anything I'm missing here or is that the case?

Per the grapple rules:

"Multiple Creatures: Multiple creatures can attempt to grapple one target. The creature that first initiates the grapple is the only one that makes a check, with a +2 bonus for each creature that assists in the grapple (using the Aid Another action). Multiple creatures can also assist another creature in breaking free from a grapple, with each creature that assists (using the Aid Another action) granting a +2 bonus on the grappled creature's combat maneuver check."

[Malag]

Don't mix Grab ability and Grapple rules. They are similar but have different restrictions.

If multiple creatures grapple one target, one of them initiates grapple while others can Aid Another for +2. Keep in mind that you can set conditions however you want. You can Aid Another immediately or simply wait and roll with every creature. If there is 20+ creatures, one should roll a 20 and auto-grapple target.

A crowd of 20+ commoners with +0 CMB can:

a) Make initial roll (1 commoner) and Aid Another (19 other commoners)
b) Make several initial rolls (several commoners) and Aid Another (several commoners)
c) Everyone is rolling independently and you have 5% chance to auto-grapple target.

Breaking away from that crowd can be also quite hard CMD to pass.

Adam

[Tarantula]

I would think that aiding in a grapple is not automatic, but has to hit a CMD of 10 just like aid another for Atk/AC. Those +0 commoners would have a 55% of successfully aiding. And, only 8 of them can reach a medium sized creature.

Multiple creature grapples with grab are not clearly addressed in the rules, so I suggest if the PC is already grappled, and then is attacked by tigers, the first tiger to successfully grapple has a hold of the PC. Any tigers which grapple/grab after that, are converted to aid another the first tiger. As for rake, only the first tiger gets it. There just isn't enough room on someone for multiple rakes to happen.

[Malag]

Tarantula wrote:

I would think that aiding in a grapple is not automatic, but has to hit a CMD of 10 just like aid another for Atk/AC. Those +0 commoners would have a 55% of successfully aiding. And, only 8 of them can reach a medium sized creature.

That's correct, but I assumed the OP knows how Aid Another works.

[Krith]

Just so we're all on the same page, from the PRD:

Aid Another

"In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent. If you're in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action."

So first off, you can't just "Aid Another" whenever you want, you need to be "in position to make a melee attack" before you can Aid Another. So you could not do 1 roll with 19 others using Aid Another, unless the 19 others have all already spent their turn using a standard action and succeeded on their to hit roll.

And I agree that multiple creatures with Grab is not a situation clearly addressed by the rules. In Pathfinder, a Grapple is generally thought of as an "arm hold" of some sort. If that's the case, there's no reason why multiple creatures couldn't Grab creatures with multiple limbs (which would probably add to the Grappled condition's restrictions).

Saying that you can't have multiple creatures Rake because there isn't enough room is not supported by any rules. Again, according to Pathfinder being Grappled just means a limb is tied up. So as long as the creatures can all get physically close enough to be in melee range, nothing else states Rake or Constrict need any amount of space. The restrictions would be based on available squares around the target just like any other combat situation (and, obviously, on whether multiple creatures can be grappled together).

I also find it ridiculous to have 1 creature holding onto an enemy's arm, with 19 allies spending their actions only helping him hold onto that arm, rather than doing something a bit more effective to restrain the enemy, but that's not really the point of this post (which is actually to get clarity on the Grab rules with multiple creatures).

If all you can do is Aid Another or a basic attack, you're taking the entire point of Grab away; it's an attack with a Grapple maneuver.

Anyway, thanks for the responses Malag and Tarantula; appreciate you taking the time to post on my question.