Large Size Advantages and Disadvantages


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

Dark Archive

So; I've been pondering the effects of being a large creature, and I have one bit I'm still curious about (mostly because I saw someone mention it as an advantage, and I thought it would be a disadvantage).

(Assuming none of the other benefits or drawbacks of large size)
What are the pros and cons of taking up 4 squares?
+ You threaten an additional 4 squares.
- You can be attacked by an additional 4 squares.
- You have trouble with regular doors and 50% of hallways, and have to squeeze in all of those scenarios.
+ You're able to block off a double door.

This to me sounds much more negative than positive.

Am I missing something?


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

nope, the more class abilities you can fit in a smaller container the better. unless you're planning to use combat maneuvers anyway.

Dark Archive

Alright, with that out of the way, what is the reason why so many people frown on large races for player characters, and why is large size so expensive in the ARG?

I'm going to spell out all the numbers I can think of associated with being large:

-1 AC
-1 to Hit
+1 CMB
+1 CMD
-4 Stealth
+5 Reach
Large Space (Half Speed, -4 to Hit, -4 AC in most hallways/doors/places with low ceilings, so like, 1/4 the time (more in a dungeon focused game)).
Large Creature Weapon Damage (+0.5 Average Damage on a Dagger, up to +3.5 Damage on a Greatsword)

Is it the Reach or the Damage people take issue with? Neither one sound all that fantastic when you consider all of the downsides that come with them.

I guess I'm just not seeing what's so powerful about Large creatures (unless they just have powerful stats).


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

the thing I find funny though, is the creature takes up the same room as a horse. not exactly something that is horribly diminished in a 5 foot wide hallway.

and yeah, most damage comes from strength and enhancements and such.

Dark Archive

Sure.

I was referring to the "common wisdom" that large creatures for base races is powerful, and Paizo pricing being large at 7RP, but looking at it, it's more already more drawback than benefit, and thats before even considering that the race builder version doesn't even get the reach.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Darkholme wrote:

Sure.

I was referring to the "common wisdom" that large creatures for base races is powerful, and Paizo pricing being large at 7RP, but looking at it, it's more already more drawback than benefit, and thats before even considering that the race builder version doesn't even get the reach.

reach is 1RP point, i know right? the points for many things are out of whack. I'd reverse those 2 prices.

large creatures are good for combat maneuvers and making a brick wall. but it better be a beefy brick wall since size doesn't increase con or anything.

Dark Archive

Large creatures get the numerical benefits/drawbacks of small creatures, but reversed (evens out), they get -4 stealth instead of +4 stealth, and they get (on average) +1 damage on hits. In addition to having to squeeze more often, and taking an additional -4 to hit & AC, and move at half speed.

Oh, and they are able to be circle beat by an additional 4 creatures (no idea what that would be worth)

Small creatures cost 0 RP. The numbers cancel out, and +4 stealth is close enough in value to -1 damage to say those roughly cancel out too.

Large creatures also numerically cancel out, but have the drawbacks of taking up additional squares. I'm having trouble seeing why you wouldn't get a points refund for being large, particularly being large without reach.

Sovereign Court

I've recently seen an Abyssal Bloodrager in action. At level 4, they can enlarge any time they go into rage. The guy had only AC 12 when raging, but he took less damage than my AC 23 paladin because enemies just couldn't come near him. With a polearm he had 20ft reach and he did enough damage to seriously punish anyone who moved inside his threatened area. Pretty much nobody survived a full attack from him.

The big advantage of being large is reach. The second one is higher weapon damage.


Bandw2 wrote:
the thing I find funny though, is the creature takes up the same room as a horse. not exactly something that is horribly diminished in a 5 foot wide hallway.

Unless the horse wants to turn around for some reason.

Dark Archive

Ascalaphus wrote:

I've recently seen an Abyssal Bloodrager in action. At level 4, they can enlarge any time they go into rage. The guy had only AC 12 when raging, but he took less damage than my AC 23 paladin because enemies just couldn't come near him. With a polearm he had 20ft reach and he did enough damage to seriously punish anyone who moved inside his threatened area. Pretty much nobody survived a full attack from him.

The big advantage of being large is reach. The second one is higher weapon damage.

Reach is advantageous, to be sure. But in the ARG, being large doesn't give you reach.

As for the higher weapon damage, the average damage change from medium weapons ranges from 0.5 at the low end to +3.5 at the high end.It's not that big of an increase. 3.5 had the monkey grip feat that let you access it, and it was not a very good feat. Flavorful if you wanted to use oversized weapons, but statistically you were still notably better off taking power attack, and power attack is still better, now.

If have always thought that chart was odd. If you look at it for medium > small, the pattern is that average damage goes down by 1 (until you're looking at d2s and d3s, then it only goes down by 0.5). for medium>large, it follows that pattern until you're upgrading a d8, then it gets bigger and bigger. For some reason the difference between a medium and large rapier is much smaller than the difference between a medium and large greatsword.

I don't know. The idea that being large without reach was priced at more than 1RP seems somewhat absurd to me.


If a player wants to make a large character, the chances are they have a plan to use a greatsword with Lead Blades or similar.

Sovereign Court

You don't take the average of all possible weapons, you have to look at the average of the kind of weapons that players will use to take advantage of size.

A medium no-dachi does 1d10 (avg. 5.5); large it does 2d8 (avg 9); that's +3.5 average damage on every hit. That's quite a lot at lower levels. It's the same for the greatsword (2d6->3d6). A large Amiri could two-hand an oversized bastard sword for about 3d8 damage (instead of a medium Amiri doing that for 2d8), that's +4.5

Also, while ARG Large doesn't give you reach immediately, it IS required if you do want to take reach with a further upgrade.

You also become more resistant to various combat maneuvers that only work on creatures no more than X bigger than you. And you can start using those maneuvers on bigger monsters yourself.

Sovereign Court

Note: I'm not saying it's costed correctly in the ARG. I think most of that point system is busted. But being Large really is quite powerful. I've seen it in action.

Dark Archive

Hmm.

I can see how the extra +3.5 matters more at lower levels. I was thinking of level 10+ and thinking "That's really not that big of a deal, it's like adding on "Flaming" that doesn't bypass DR."

In my home games I've been using "increase max damage by 2 and avg damage by 1" as a universal pattern since we were playing 3.5 - partly so I don't have to look up the table, and partly because it just didn't make sense to me as written, but that's obv. a houserule.

IE: 2d6 >> d6+d8; 1d12 >> 1d14 or d6+d8.
d6+d8 is better than a d14; more reliable, higher minimum result, and slightly higher average result. Also, most people don't own d14s, d16s, or d18s.
2d12 (assuming you don't own d14s) would >> 2d8+1d10.

I forgot about those combat maneuvers that don't work on creatures larger than you; though. Good point.

Anyways; you made some good points. Even without reach, the damage boost is noteworthy at low levels, and you get some good resistance to CMBs.


Well, by level 11 the PC's Lead Blades + Enlarge Self to Huge + Improved Vital Strike Greatsword combo might be coming into play.


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Darkholme wrote:

So; I've been pondering the effects of being a large creature, and I have one bit I'm still curious about (mostly because I saw someone mention it as an advantage, and I thought it would be a disadvantage).

(Assuming none of the other benefits or drawbacks of large size)
What are the pros and cons of taking up 4 squares?
+ You threaten an additional 4 squares.
- You can be attacked by an additional 4 squares.
- You have trouble with regular doors and 50% of hallways, and have to squeeze in all of those scenarios.
+ You're able to block off a double door.

This to me sounds much more negative than positive.

Am I missing something?

In 3.x, bigger was usually better. You got a +4 size modifier per size category above medium to grapple checks, and most creatures were assumed to use the size-advancement mechanics when they were naturally (non-magically) getting bigger (which is usually a boost of about +8 Str / +4 Con / +2 natural AC). Being bigger is generally very "meh" in Pathfinder since size doesn't really mean much in terms of capability, but you're absolutely right that it actively makes you weaker more often than not (I strongly encourage anyone who's planning to use big versions of existing critters to advanced HD and up their size organically rather than relying on the giant template which doesn't work).

When you consider that for non-bipeds, large doesn't even up your reach most of the time, it's pretty much just a hindrance. It's a plus for summoned monsters though since you'll usually want them to take hits instead of your real party, and having a fat ass (celestial donkey? :D) providing soft cover is convenient.


Perhaps most humorously is the fact that being bigger also makes it harder for you to actually move around. Difficult terrain and spacing affects you just as much as anyone else, but a 5 ft. step is a joke for you, and it's harder to move between gaps.

It's like, take a 10 ft. wide hallway (2 squares) and pour some oil in one square. A large creature can't charge through this area. Despite being really massive, having bigger, longer legs doesn't actually let you do anything except tip-toe around. Think about it, a human can casually move around 5 ft. while fighting without raising an action. That's 1/6th of his total movement speed.

Something four times the size of a human but with the same general body proportions can still also only take a 5 ft. step.

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