3.5 Psionics: Experience, Math, and Balance (or lack thereof)


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Wraithstrike wrote:
That also means that every other power you are using has a lower DC because you are using a psicrown. Having all of my powers at full potential is better than having extra power points, barring specific exceptions.

Assuming that you don't pay the cost for a non-standard slot and wear a cape or gloves of Intellect instead?

Right at 11th level this might force you down to a +4 non-standard for 24,000 gold rather than a +6 Headband for 36,000 gold, however long term the total "cost" of going for a non-standard Intellect granting item is only 18,000 more for the +6 which is a drop in the hat compared to PC wealth measured in the hundred thousands.

Even using the 11th level example-- the save DC is therefore 1 less due to having the +4 Gloves of Intellect instead of the +6 Headband, but 2 higher due to the additional increase effects of using 11 PP.

Edit:
Going to have to come back to the math on the haste comparisons in the morning.

Other topics waiting to be able to look at still--
1. Custom staff versus custom Psicrown (I'm going to just start factoring +18,000 to the cost of Psicrowns for the non-standard Int item)
2. Astral Construct versus Summon monster and then the Staff versus the Psicrown


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Tacticslion wrote:

Balzej - I might have missed a number of responses that cover this. If so, I apologize. I'm just going to ignore the wish/binding side conversation because, frankly, I've run out of time to handle it or properly respond to the volume there.

Also, I apologize for the lack of links - it's for the same reason (and when quoting large things, the forums likes to cut stuff off).

That is a lot and thanks for responding Tacticslion. And hello second most common misspelling of my name. I understand the cutoff, it is for the best as the back and forth needs to be culled at some point going through this now I just gave up on links and formatting to keep myself more sane. I'm going to skip a few points you make where I agree or even where I can just see your perspective clear enough. [Despite the fact I say that, I immediately ended up trying to working on a reply to something with a response of I pretty much agree.]

Tacticslion wrote:
One thing to note about magic circle is that, unlike most defensive effects, it does have an offensive effect: the ability to trap a creature. I read the trap as the offensive element that it is, and thus suggested the idea of the scaling HD for augmentation.

However for most psionic analogs, HD limits aren't created but come from the spell they are emulating. For example psionic daze has a HD limit and an augmentation to increase that limit, but daze itself has that same limit as well. That is the case for many of powers that emulate spells, none come to mind where there is a one for one comparison and a hit point limit, creature type limitation, or such is introduced into the psionic version.

Tacticslion wrote:
Thus the design elements of the augment and power point system, when bent towards summoning, only summon a specific creature, summon creatures that are (by CR) inferior to or just equal to the creatures that you can summon with fewer options and less variability.

I would argue that is not necessarily a feature of psionics as much as a feature of the books and options created following the Player's Handbook, Monster Manual, and Dungeon Master's Guide. There aren't many examples of spells that have that type of "choose from 10 to 30 options" instead most are like what you mentioned, easier to balance and control spells and powers that focus on summoning just one type of thing.

I cannot recall off hand which book it was from, but I do remember things of that nature, polymorph type spells that gave you as specific form specific to the spell rather than tell you to dig up a Monster Manual of some number to pick out the stats you need. Polymorph is definitely better since it is pretty easily to pick a form that gives better bonuses from the laundry list of creatures as well as the versatility polymorph gives being a great advantage by itself. However having only that one form for that specific transmutation spell make presenting and balancing it a lot more manageable and that is what I think the reason for a lack of Summon Monster type options for psionics as opposed to a conscious effort to restrict those to only magical classes.

Tacticslion wrote:
Faulty comparison. As I noted here, microcosm is more comparable to imprisonment, and is demonstrably less awesome.

I didn't see much to that comparison there. Comparing microcosm to power word kill though, both have the exact same spell types and descriptors. Same level, same range, same SR, both lack saving throws, both are instantaneous effects, both are only able to effect a single target with 100 hp or less (although microcosm is also able to take out a very weak group as well).

It is easier to fix than power word kill. Another casting of microcosm fixes itself, but both are fixed with a wish.

Why do you feel it is more comparable to imprisonment?

Tacticslion wrote:

Please hear me: what I'm about to say sounds harsh, but I don't mean it in a harsh manner, and I can't find a way to change my words (it's late, and I'm tired). I really apologize for any rudeness - it's not intentional, though it's acknowledged that it could come off that way.

This - combined with the summon mosnter aside - seems to not understand the basic paradigm of how powers balance themselves. psionic charm isn't compared to charm person - it's compared to the charm spells, because that's what augmenting does.

I think I hear you and they don't seem rude at all.

I feel I completely understand this and instead feel that when these conversations come up, it is the people defending psionics are those that don't understand what augmenting does. It is nearly always referred to as cost that lets it barely match magical variants at a vast increase in cost and not the boon that it is.

I wouldn't say "More powerful effects can be achieved than spells, but only by expending more resources." These are more powerful effects. However these augments allow these known powers to be more versatile than a single known spell. Psionic charm isn't more powerful than charm person, but it gives you effectively six different ways (more if you want to add another augment for the DC increase) to cast it. Charm Person on the other hand doesn't scale as well. The DC does go up, but not by much and since the situations where it can be useful are a lot fewer, it is one that a sorcerer is more likely to forget or a wizard is less likely to prepare.

Tacticslion wrote:

Despite that imitation, the fact is that charm and always will be a 1st level power.

This means, among other things, that lesser globes of invulnerability shut it down, no matter how many power points you put into it. It's just less, even when it seems more.

Correct, but I want to call that more a failing of the psionic system for not dealing with that. Because it is so focused on points and how it interacts with itself, I think that this area (where power points interact with spell slot terminology) is severely lacking.

Tacticslion wrote:

Anyway, I'm out for the night.

Enjoy!

Thank you and good night.


Nathanael Love wrote:
Wraithstrike wrote:
That also means that every other power you are using has a lower DC because you are using a psicrown. Having all of my powers at full potential is better than having extra power points, barring specific exceptions.

Assuming that you don't pay the cost for a non-standard slot and wear a cape or gloves of Intellect instead?

Assuming non-standard equipment is very much into table variation territory. If we start down this road thing just get messy.

Quote:


2. Astral Construct versus Summon monster and then the Staff versus the Psicrown

Now I actually really like Astral Constructs, and I think in a "stand and deliver fight" the astral construct is ahead, but for overall purposes of "Better" my money is on the summoned monster.

However we can handle that tomorrow. :)


If you still want to do this I am awake. I think we will not agree on the psicrown vs the staff due to playing differences.

The astral construct vs summoned monsters probably be resolved though.


wraithstrike wrote:

If you still want to do this I am awake. I think we will not agree on the psicrown vs the staff due to playing differences.

The astral construct vs summoned monsters probably be resolved though.

Gimme a sec... *typing*


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IMHO, astral construct and also the metamorphosis line of powers as presented by DSP are pretty much the ideal answers to summoning and/or shapeshifting in this game as they are both versatile and capable of fulfilling a wide range of concepts while also being self-contained and easily balanced. Neither require you or your players to have the bestiary statblock for whatever you intend to create or transform into, which prevents the oft-lamented issue of having to constantly reference different books for the statblocks and/or forms to assume, and also reduces (or nearly eliminates) there being obviously superior summons and/or forms to assume (which prevents unexpected power jumps, such as when Paizo released a monstrous humanoid wit 6 natural attacks, and suddenly being able to assume that form with monstrous physique when it was previously impossible). In short, it's simpler, less abuseable, and doesn't encourage a lot of metagame form-searching.

Pound for pound, I generally think astral constructs tends to produce creatures that are sturdier. For example, your basic astral construct has 18 AC, 15 HP, and construct traits (low-light vision, darkvision, some decent immunities), 1 attack at +4 for 1d4+3 (average 5.5). This makes it a pretty good meat shield and it's not bad at physical offense, and you can pick 1 perk when you create it, such as giving it a 20 ft. fly speed, 30 ft. swim speed, a few more HP, a specific sort of bonus feat, etc.

However, I think summon monster typically produces creatures that are more powerful. Summon Monster I for example can plant a celestial eagle in full-attack range of an enemy (3 attacks at +3 to hit, dealing 1d4 damage each or 1d4+2 with augment summoning, and it smites for +1 point of damage on each attack), moves at a speed of 10 ft. / 80 ft. fly speed (average maneuverability), the eagle also has darkvision, low-light vision. It's a bit more fragile at 5 HP (7 w/ Augment) and 14 AC (but this doesn't matter very much since they only last a couple rounds anyway). It also gets free acid, cold, and electricity 5, and SR 5 (not much of a matter but it's something).

I mentioned somewhere on the boards recently about laughing at our party's summoner just bombing orcs with eagles at low levels and watching the eagles rip them up. She would typically summon them flanking with another character, which meant that they had 3 attacks at +5 to hit, at 1d4+3 to damage.

When you get 3rd level constructs, summoners get aurochs. Trampling aurochs. Beefy, trampling, aurochs. That smite things. >_>
Likewise you get creatures that can preform tasks and cast spells indirectly for you. For example, stinking cloud is a 3rd level sorcerer/wizard spell, but you can cast summon monster III and get a minion for 5 rounds who can also cast a slightly less powerful stinking cloud spell in addition to its other support.

At higher levels, you start also noticing how bad the saving throws of constructs are. They're very vulnerable to CC effects, since all their saves are 1/3rd their HD (a 9th level construct has +6/+6/+6 in saves with its 19 HD). They also lack a lot of the potency of mid/high level summons, in that they lack SLAs and the like.

Likewise, you cannot really spam astral constructs. Summoning a small horde of helpers to the field is very doable by core casters. 1d3 averages to 2, and 1d4+1 averges 3.5, and can be cute targets for empower and maximize (naturally or with rods), especially if you're just looking for fodder, flanking buddies, or supports. Constructs come 1 at a time. No powering them up with metapsionics or anything like that.

Psionic shapeshifting is similar. You get a list of abilities that you can use to represent your new form, and your form is more or less up to you, within reason and/or size constraints. I like it because you can actually be a shapeshifter from 1st level, it doesn't get stronger with each new bestiary published, and it's relatively simple (it changes what it says, nothing else). When I made my psionic shapeshifter, I was able to take a wide variety of cool and/or interesting exotic forms right from 1st level. For example, I turned into a centipede with a burrow speed pretty frequently, and once turned into a sea-witch (a merfolk with octopus tentacles) with a swim speed and cold resistance when I fell into a cold river. Once when I was trying to be scary, I assumed the form of a large-sized worm-monster with tentacles kind of like a tiny neothelid, and I fluffed my longspear attacks as my main tentacle (of course they could have still sundered/disarmed me of my "tentacle" which would have either destroyed it or caused it to fly off my body and need to be re-"assumed" by my picking it back up with my face :P).

These are systems that are self-contained, don't require you to have ready access to various bestiaries, and let you build the form you want to build at the time. It is independent of what creatures already exist, what creatures will exist, etc. It prevents system-wide ripples, such as if the GM (or publisher) publishes a monster with lots of natural attacks or a great base speed or more special abilities, suddenly causing problems with your core abilities.


Ashiel wrote:
IMHO, astral construct and also the metamorphosis line of powers as presented by DSP are pretty much the ideal answers to summoning and/or shapeshifting in this game as they are both versatile and capable of fulfilling a wide range of concepts while also being self-contained and easily balanced.

While I agree with a lot of that, I think the thread is a bit more focused on how things were set up in 3.5 rather than what Dreamscarred Press did. Astral construct hasn't changed much, but metamorphosis in 3.5 was another "look at your bestiary" type power.

Edit: I started looking up the summon monster so I could add a bit more direct comparisons of summons to constructs, but I ended up recalling how much the summon monster table (as well as the monsters you summoned) changed from 3.5 to Pathfinder.

I did remember that the celestial template did get a smite boost, so the smiting eagle only gets +1 damage to one declared attack. I had forgotten through that the celestial eagle was on the 2nd level summon list and it had slipped my mind that the bite took a -5 penalty as a secondary attack.

It is easy enough to compare astral constructs from a "stand there and keep punching" perspective. The astral constructs are good at what they do, at 6th level they seem to beat the damage output of single summon monster summons. Their saves are slow, but not very compared to similar summons of the type (summon monsters typically have better Fortitude saves, but the construct type does a pretty good job protecting that weakness). If the enemy has a saving throw spell that can shut down the constructs it will be trivial to take them out. Lack of free feats and skills also hurts the astral constructs.

At this point I started looking up summons to show of what summon monster can do and ended up more or less confusing myself as I slowly recalled how things had changed. Like lantern archons having only 4 hit points and being a 4th level summon. Or Lillends being an 8th level summon with dramatically less than they have now. I'm not in the right mindset to find good comparison points showing the full advantages of 3.5 summon monster.


Blazej wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
IMHO, astral construct and also the metamorphosis line of powers as presented by DSP are pretty much the ideal answers to summoning and/or shapeshifting in this game as they are both versatile and capable of fulfilling a wide range of concepts while also being self-contained and easily balanced.
While I agree with a lot of that, I think the thread is a bit more focused on how things were set up in 3.5 rather than what Dreamscarred Press did. Astral construct hasn't changed much, but metamorphosis in 3.5 was another "look at your bestiary" type power.

That's because metamorphosis was written for WotC, and compared to the polymorph line of spells. However, since a lot of this nonsense keeps getting tossed around about psionics in PF/DSP, I'm addressing both in the thread (also because Tacticslion said this is where to discuss psionic vs core casting balance for Pathfinder, though I was surprised that he linked me to a 3.5 board).

When I'm talking about 3.5, I'll note it, just like I noted it when I was talking about the DSP version of psionics. DSP actually fixed one of the most common complaints about shapeshifting spells in 3.x (Paizo did not).

Since I was talking about DSP's PF-psionics, I likewise compared it to the Pathfinder version of the Summon Monster line. However, when compared to the 3.5 summon monster or even summon nature's ally lines, astral construct is kind of a sick joke. As early as 3rd level you can summon Large-sized celestial or fiendish monsters to clog up the battlefield, Huge monsters at 5th level (complete with a 10 ft. reach, 2d6+4 bite w/ poison, and a +15 grapple modifier), and in the higher level spells can summon things with lots of sweet SLAs and special abilities (like Avorals and their being able to insta-heal +66 HP to people, cast aid at-will, throw around 8d6 lightning bolts and 4d4+4 magic missiles, etc. However, they generally summoned more big, beefy, massive monsters in 3.5, and you were very much welcome to summon off lower level charts (as the outsiders you got were frequently less impressive than the 1d4+1 colossal fiendish tadpoles or whatever it was you were summoning, unless you wanted more casting power).

Meanwhile the Summon Nature's Ally list included things like Unicorns (call one up and convert your 4th level spell slot into 5d8+20 points of healing and a bonus neutralize poison, take that cure critical wounds!), lions on the SNA III list (large sized pouncing cat, and if you have augment summoning you're looking at a charge for 2 claws at +9, bite at +4, improved grab at a +14 grapple check vs the victim's strength check, and then raking for another 2 claw attacks at +9/+9 and 1d4+4 on the following round), or the Thoqqua which is a monster that you don't want to hit, sets you on fire, and burrows. At 11th level, a huge fire elemental with a +17 to hit unbuffed and a +25 grapple check combined with a 15 ft. reach was pretty snazzy too, if you weren't summoning 1d4+1 tigers or 1d3 dire lions with augment summoning of course (and possibly a metamagic rod of empowering or maximize if you had one).

SNA IX wasn't that impressive, but it was basically an excuse to summon 1d4+1 Tyrannosauruses which were grand meat shields that also had Swallow Whole, Improved Grab, and a +30 grapple modifier (again, this was an opposed check vs your foe's STRENGTH modifier plus their size modifier). Even if the critter wasn't going to kill whatever you were dealing with, you're basically spreading 1d4+1 gulpers onto the battlefield who are going to swallow any enemies without freedom of movement active and keep them occupied for 1 round / caster level.

The funny thing is, Paizo kind of/not really nerfed summoning in Pathfinder. SNA got nerfed, but in a lot of ways Summon Monster is even stronger than ever before. Before most of your summons were different versions of meat shields, now the summon monster list is saturated with exotic outsiders that have tons of sweet abilities and/or lots of cool spells to throw around too.

Meanwhile the most powerful astral construct in Pathfinder looks like this...

d20pfsrd.com wrote:


N Huge construct
Init +0; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, Perception -
DEFENSE
AC 33, touch 8, flat-footed 33 (+25 natural, -2 size)
HP 144 (19d10+40)
Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +6; DR 15/magic; construct traits
OFFENSE
Speed 50 ft.
Melee 2 slams +33 melee (2d6+16)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15ft.
STATISTICS
Str 43, Dex 11, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 10
BAB +19, CMB +37; CMD 47
Feats -
Skills -
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Two abilities from Menu C

A 9th-level astral construct has two abilities from Menu C

Menu C abilities include...

Quote:

Blindsight (Ex)

The astral construct has blindsight out to 60 feet.

Concussion (Sp)
The astral construct can manifest concussion blast (manifester level 7th) as a free action once per round.

Constrict (Ex)
The astral construct has the improved grab ability with its slam attack. In addition, on a successful grapple check, the astral construct deals damage equal to its slam damage.

Dimension Slide (Sp)
The astral construct can manifest dimension slide (manifester level equal to Hit Dice) as a move action once per round.

Energy Bolt (Sp)
The astral construct can manifest energy bolt (manifester level 8th) as a standard action once per round. The creator’s active energy type determines the type of energy used. Kineticists are not restricted to an active energy type when choosing this menu option.

Extra Buff (Ex)
The astral construct gains an extra 30 hit points.

Extreme Damage Reduction (Ex)
The astral construct’s surface forms hard, armor-like plates and provides an additional 6 points of damage reduction.

Extreme Deflection (Ex)
The astral construct gains a +8 deflection bonus to Armor Class.

Natural Invisibility (Su)
The astral construct is constantly invisible, even when attacking. This ability is inherent and not subject to the invisibility purge spell.

Power Resistance (Ex)
The astral construct gains power resistance equal to 10 + its Hit Dice.

Rend (Ex)
The astral construct makes claw attacks instead of slam attacks (it deals the same amount of damage as it would with its slam damage, but does slashing damage instead of bludgeoning damage). An astral construct that hits the same opponent with two claw attacks in the same round rends its foe, which deals extra damage equal to 2d6 + 1-1/2 times its Str modifier.

Spring Attack (Ex)
The astral construct gains the Spring Attack feat.

Whirlwind Attack (Ex)
The astral construct gains the Whirlwind Attack feat.

IMHO, the best abilities on the list are Natural Invisibility (vs enemies who can't deal with invisible foes, you now have an invisible stalker), Power Resistance (makes it a little harder to neutralize), Dimension Slide (allows the construct much better mobility), blindsight 60 ft. (for dealing with invisibility), concussion blast (3d6 damage, no save 1/round vs a target, though useless vs anything with SR), the energy ray one (8d6+8 fire damage as a standard action isn't terrible).

My favorite combination is grabing natural invisibility or dimension slide off C, then grabbing 2 options (extra attack, smite) and trying to get it into full-attack space with a VIP (either by manifesting it next to the target or using dimension slide) and hope that it can burst the dude down by declaring a smite and making 3 slams vs at 2d6+35 vs hopefully flat-fooed AC (if the foe can't see the invisible construct).

All in all though, psionic summons are still limited to meat-bruisers.


On a side note, the best buff that the astral construct got was the change to constructs in Pathfinder, where they got full BAB for their HD, which cranked up the AC to-hit bonuses, which is really good because they were really lacking. It kind of sucks having trouble hitting stuff at high levels in addition to watching a huge amount of their damage also get shaved off from DR and similar effects.

For example, a Pathfinder Pit Fiend has a naked AC of 42 (38 base +4 deflection) which assumes the pit fiend is just teasing you with his dongle hanging out, and not even bothering to wear a robe or drink a potion of mage armor or something. A 3.5 astral construct would only hit said pit fiend on a roll of 14 (30% chance) and deal 2d6+1 net damage per attack (since you can't pierce the pit fiend's DR 15/good and silver). The PF 9th level astral construct actually has a 60% chance to hit, which is nice since you can at least do something to the pit fiend (even if you'll never kill the thing 'cause of regeneration).

Even then, a top-augmented astral construct with all the trimmings still can't lay a hand on a high level PC martial. They just don't have enough accuracy to make it a thing.

EDIT: For example, in Pathfinder a top-level martial in a traditional party is going to be prancing around with a +5 armor, +5 shield, +5 deflection, +5 natural, +1 insight, +7 to +9 Dexterity modifier, and that's before you count any special frills like defending weapons, fighting defensively, or feats.

Assuming a light shield (so your hand is considered free for casting or manipulating things), you're looking at an AC of 10 + 7 (dex) + 9 (armor) +5 (armor enhancement) + 1 (shield) +5 (shield enhancement) +1 (insight) + 5 (natural enhancement) + 5 (deflection) = AC 48. Haste brings it to 49. Any non-enhancement natural armor will push it to 50+, fighting defensively can add another +3, combat expertise can add another +6 (if you really want to), paladin smite ups the deflection by about +5, beast totem ups natural by +5, etc. You only need an AC of 53 to reach the evasion cap vs the most powerful bruiser that you can construct, and that isn't counting any DR that you might have to weaken it's attacks (and isn't counting how effortlessly a martial is going to slaughter the poor thing with it's 34 AC and paltry HP).

Paizo Employee Design Manager

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BlazeJ wrote:

I didn't see much to that comparison there. Comparing microcosm to power word kill though, both have the exact same spell types and descriptors. Same level, same range, same SR, both lack saving throws, both are instantaneous effects, both are only able to effect a single target with 100 hp or less (although microcosm is also able to take out a very weak group as well).

It is easier to fix than power word kill. Another casting of microcosm fixes itself, but both are fixed with a wish.

Why do you feel it is more comparable to imprisonment?

I think he was looking more at level and effect. Microcosm is a kind of "remove from play" spell, just like imprisonment. At those levels death is just a 1 round speedbump, so abilities that leave the target alive but incapacitated are actually more powerful than abilities that simply kill enemies.

If you're dead, you can be resurrected or raised, or your corpse can be transformed into some kind of powerful undead, or used as the focus for some kind of horrific necromancy spell, etc.

If you're the subject of microcosm or imprisonment, it's actually much more difficult to bring you back into play.


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Indeed. There are worse fates than death. Liches know this all too well. Being unable to kill a lich generally results in the lich being locked in solitary confinement for undetermined amounts of time. How the lich reacts with freed probably varies widely from lich to lich, but it could run anywhere between unabashed thankfulness and a repenting of their misdeeds having been stuck in a time out to think about their lives for all this time, to world shattering anger combined with an unholy and unhealthy does of solitary-induced insanity.


Ssalarn wrote:
BlazeJ wrote:

I didn't see much to that comparison there. Comparing microcosm to power word kill though, both have the exact same spell types and descriptors. Same level, same range, same SR, both lack saving throws, both are instantaneous effects, both are only able to effect a single target with 100 hp or less (although microcosm is also able to take out a very weak group as well).

It is easier to fix than power word kill. Another casting of microcosm fixes itself, but both are fixed with a wish.

Why do you feel it is more comparable to imprisonment?

I think he was looking more at level and effect. Microcosm is a kind of "remove from play" spell, just like imprisonment. At those levels death is just a 1 round speedbump, so abilities that leave the target alive but incapacitated are actually more powerful than abilities that simply kill enemies.

If you're dead, you can be resurrected or raised, or your corpse can be transformed into some kind of powerful undead, or used as the focus for some kind of horrific necromancy spell, etc.

If you're the subject of microcosm or imprisonment, it's actually much more difficult to bring you back into play.

Yes, but when I mentioned the comparison I was listing off ways certain powers were more powerful than magic counterparts in response to the idea that there are no psionic powers that are better than their magical counterparts.

Also, hello most common misspelling of my name on the forums! It has been a while.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Blazej wrote:


Yes, but when I mentioned the comparison I was listing off ways certain powers were more powerful than magic counterparts in response to the idea that there are no psionic powers that are better than their magical counterparts.

Right, and his point was that microcosm was more like the psionic version of imprisonment than the psionic version of power word kill, which I think is pretty fair, at least in as far as that's the comparison that everyone I've played with would have made. Microcosm is typically a last resort for either creatures that you cannot kill or do not want to kill, much like imprisonment, and has much different results and uses than power word kill, even if the end result and basic framework is occasionally the same.


Ssalarn wrote:
Right, and his point was that microcosm was more like the psionic version of imprisonment than the psionic version of power word kill, which I think is pretty fair, at least in as far as that's the comparison that everyone I've played with would have made. Microcosm is typically a last resort for either creatures that you cannot kill or do not want to kill, much like imprisonment, and has much different results and uses than power word kill, even if the end result and basic framework is occasionally the same.

I don't think it is fair however to just disregard that comparison to try to downplay where psionics has advantages rather than disadvantages. It isn't stronger than power word kill, it is just weaker than imprisonment. At a high level, it does sound like microcosm is more like imprisonment than power word kill, but looking at the rules the comparison breaks down.

There is very little in imprisonment that matches up with what microcosm does (compared to power word kill). School, spell descriptors, range, saving throw and what it can affect and differ from imprisonment. I would say even how hard it is it to fix microcosm is closer to power word kill than imprisonment (since even wish cannot break imprisonment).

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Blazej wrote:


I don't think it is fair however to just disregard that comparison to try to downplay where psionics has advantages rather than disadvantages. It isn't stronger than power word kill, it is just weaker than imprisonment. At a high level, it does sound like microcosm is more like imprisonment than power word kill, but looking at the rules the comparison breaks down.

There is very little in imprisonment that matches up with what microcosm does (compared to power word kill). School, spell descriptors, range, saving throw and what it can affect and differ from imprisonment. I would say even how hard it is it to fix microcosm is closer to power word kill than imprisonment (since even wish cannot break imprisonment).

I don't disagree with either point, really, I just think it's worth noting that microcosm is a fairly complex ability that actually strides the line between two spells, rather than being a direct correlation of one. Microcosm can fix itself, imprisonment requires the offset spell (or a wish). Given the smaller number of psionic powers and their nature as self-sufficient items, I think that's fairly similar. I think the reality is that microcosm straddles a line between the two spells, and, being somewhat better than one and worse than the other depending on how and where you make the comparison, is actually well balanced as a cross-section of the two.

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Removed some posts and responses from over the weekend. Guys, we know that tempers and emotions can run high, especially in discussions concerning rules and mechanics. Please remember that the person you're talking to is still an actual person on the other side of the screen. It may have been missed, but we have revised our Community Guidelines recently, and I invite you to read them over if you haven't yet. In situations like this, it's probably best to remove yourself from the situation, get away from the keyboard and take a breather, and send us an email (community@paizo.com) if you think a thread requires moderator attention.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Chris Lambertz wrote:
Removed some posts and responses from over the weekend. Guys, we know that tempers and emotions can run high, especially in discussions concerning rules and mechanics. Please remember that the person you're talking to is still an actual person on the other side of the screen. It may have been missed, but we have revised our Community Guidelines recently, and I invite you to read them over if you haven't yet. In situations like this, it's probably best to remove yourself from the situation, get away from the keyboard and take a breather, and send us an email (community@paizo.com) if you think it requires moderator attention.

Chris, the link you posted does not appear to be working.

Thank you!

Paizo Glitterati Robot

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Fixed!


Reckless Adventuring:
I'd say that the analog to astral seed would be clone. Just about any wizard can have access to clone (as an 8th level spell) where as only a particular subset of psions can have access to astral seed (as a 8th level power) without a specific investment (expanded knowledge once one can access 9th level powers). Both clone and astral seed would require greater restoration cast afterwards to remove the lost level.

However, starting at 17th level, a wizard and anyone he wants to bring along on adventures is virtually unkillable (very narrow subset for death, gith swords) for the cost of a 9th level slot and a 7th level slot that he can cast out of combat and has an unlimited duration.

You cast Astral Projection and have a fake body that's just like your real body on the Astral Plane... except it's fake. Plane Shift to the Material Plane. Adventure at your leisure. If you "die" you just go back to your body and start over.

It's more cost effective to make the cleric cast Plane Shift. It's a 5th level spell for him (assuming you are adventuring in a party).

Astral Projection lets one avoid raise dead, resurrection, true resurrection, and the restoration line of spells for the low cost of 1,000 gp. It's like an unlimited duration contingency spell.

So by the time the bulk of psions can effectively "clone" a wizard can create a copy of his entire party and not worry about having to spend 5,000 to 25,000 gp and 500 xp or more per person to get them back. It makes a speed bump, a mile marker.

On Near Limitless Wishes:

And I believe this was the formula for binding. You cast an inward Magic Circle Against Evil (Wiz 3), then Dimensional Anchor (Wiz 4), then Planar Binding (Wiz 6) to summon an Efreeti. He's stuck there for 24 hours, nothing he does will allow him to cross the line, his spell resistance doesn't do him any good, and if the efreeti tries a Charisma check to break free of the trap, the DC increases by 5. Normally the Efreeti can escape from the trap with by successfully pitting its spell resistance against your caster level check or by dimensional travel, but we've removed both of those options. All that's left is a successful Charisma check (DC 15 + ½ your caster level + your Cha modifier). Buff your charisma for interactions. The DC is 20 with a charisma of 10, and the Efreeti has a -5 from the trap, bringing it's modifier to a -3. It becomes statistically impossible for it to succeed. Continue to cast the spells until he agrees to your terms or just crush his will with Dominate Monster if you can as another poster suggested.

Now remember, you are a smart wizard. Craft a contract using that big brain. If your storyteller forces you, the player, to try to do it when your character is smarter than you are in real life (...what can I say. I'm average and I play high Int characters...) he's metagaming, and a douche.

He grants you three wishes, guilt free, because you have closed all the loopholes and do not "try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these. . . " the normal uses for the spell to avoid the case of "The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment."

So you are really only looking to "Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item" within the normal limits or getting ". . . a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies."

So this probably means you want another Efreeti or more so you can wish in five wish cycles.

And if you are worried about revenge once you release the circle, just throw down a cold spell that does at least 75 points of damage to the Efreeti. (It's not too hard when they take an extra 50% from cold.) As outsiders summoned with a calling effect, they die and cannot come back without something like... a wish. If you want to be nice, just wish that they forget. Then start the process all over again.

Psionics has nothing like this.

A Core PrC...:

Assuming everyone means Core Only (denying wizard even more brokenation and psion not so much as there isn't nearly as much support...) to be The Players Handbook, The Dungeon Master's Guide, and The Monster Manual, that still leaves an interesting option for wizards.

Red Wizard.

Wizard 5/Red Wizard 5 vs. Psion (Telepath) 5/Thrallherd 5, specifically to compare Circle Magic (a class feature) to Metaconcert (a power).

Let's say that they are both human.

Red Wizard has (Human) Tattoo Focus, (1st) Extend Spell, (Wiz 1) Scribe Scroll, (3rd) Craft Wondrous Item , (Wiz 5) Enlarge Spell, (6th) Leadership, (9th) Whatever, (Red 5) Whatever
Caster Level 12 (5 wizard + 5 PrC + 2 from spell power)

From Leadership you have an 8th level Thayan Wizard (10 class + 2 great renown/or +1/+1 for fairness and special power [circle magic]) and eight 1st level followers, also thayan wizard apprentices.

The 8th level specialist wizard will have 5-1st, 4-2nd, 4-3rd, and 3-4ths, or 37 spell levels to give you. Add 4 apprentices which have 2-1sts to give, or 8 spell level among them, for a total of 45 spell levels to play with over the next 24 hour period. (Yes, I am ignoring bonus spells for a high intelligence and not burning any of the Red Wizards own lower level spells slots for more spell levels to keep things simple.)

Considering ". . . whenever the rules don't stipulate an order of operations for special effects (such as spells or special abilities), you should apply them in the order that's most beneficial to the creature. In the case of damage, this typically means applying any damage-reducing effects first, before applying any effects that would increase damage." -from the compiled D&D 3.5 FAQ, you can burn spell levels to add 30 levels to your 10 and then apply spell power for the additional +2 for a caster level of 42 before items. Or just spend 12 levels to get your caster level to 24 for genuine all day 1 hour per caster level spells (or +1 extend for two days), hit the cap on all your blasting spells, and have 32 spell levels to spontaneously apply empower, maximize, and heighten (even if you don't know the feats).

How do you like that 22d6 empowered cone of cold or 90 damage maximized cone of cold at 10th level by burning 3 or 4 spell levels you borrowed off your chumps, I mean, adoring fans? How do you like that Black Tentacles with a Grapple Check of 32? How do you like that Dismissal with a minimum DC of 42 - creature’s HD (or burn a few spell levels to heighten it). I mean, we can do better, but I stopped at CL 24 with these examples.

Thrallherd has (Human)Inquisitor, (1st)Improved Initiative , (Psi 1)Psicrystal Affinity, (3rd)Burrowing Power, (Psi 5)Psicrystal Containment, (6th)Overchannel, (9th)Talented
Manifester Level 9 (11 for 3rd level powers if necessary) (5 psion + 4 PrC)

With an effective leadership score of 15 (10 levels + thrallherd levels doubled) you have a 9th level psion cohort (72 pp) and a 3rd (11 pp), two 2nd (6 pp), and twenty 1st level (2 pp) psion followers. Only nine creatures can participate in a metaconcert so between throwing all the power points into the pot (- the cost to manifest), you have an entity with 170 power point, +9 to DCs, +9 to saves, all the powers of every member of the group and it lasts for 9 minutes. (Yes, I left out bonus pp again to keep it simple. These pp totals can be higher.)

Feat Leach would let you borrow all the feats that members have that you need, and being able to burn two foci to add 2 to the manifester level of a 3rd or lower power and add burrowing power to get around obstacles is pretty fun. You can't really move, and the duration is pretty short (one combat usually). It doesn't have the same caster level buff that circle magic allows nor are you getting any extra actions (one entity) or any extra foci (you can't borrow/use those like you can the power points) so you are limited to having to refocus to use metapsionic feats.

I mean... is this obvious to everybody that metaconcert is just fun while circle magic is overpowered? Or do I have to do an actual analysis?

Oh, but the feats are really pretty open on both, with a wizard needing three feats to get into red wizard while a psion needs only needs only one to get into thrallherd.


Ssalarn wrote:
Microcosm can fix itself, imprisonment requires the offset spell (or a wish).

Wish cannot fix imprisonment. You can use it to help undo the imprisonment by using it to figure out where you need to cast freedom, but it doesn't undo the spell like it does for microcosm.

I am curious where you would say power word kill is better than microcosm. The cases that are coming to mind are pretty far-fetched and unusual.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Blazej wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
Microcosm can fix itself, imprisonment requires the offset spell (or a wish).

Wish cannot fix imprisonment. You can use it to help undo the imprisonment by using it to figure out where you need to cast freedom, but it doesn't undo the spell like it does for microcosm.

I am curious where you would say power word kill is better than microcosm. The cases that are coming to mind are pretty far-fetched and unusual.

My point was that microcosm is marginally better than power word kill, and about equally worse than imprisonment. As a cross-section of the two 9th level spells, that, to me, means it's about perfectly balanced, since it serves as the psionic equivalent of both.


Te'Shen wrote:
And if you are worried about revenge once you release the circle, just throw down a cold spell that does at least 75 points of damage to the Efreeti. (It's not too hard when they take an extra 50% from cold.) As outsiders summoned with a calling effect, they die and cannot come back without something like... a wish. If you want to be nice, just wish that they forget. Then start the process all over again.

Because revenge only happens when kidnapping occurs, not kidnapping and murder.


That sort of revenge requires there to be any clues about your identity. Which is kinda hard to have on a wizard, when nondetection and mind blank are in play.

I think killing the efreeti is a pretty awful thing to do, and likely only the domain of very evil characters. More than likely you'd deal amicably with them, forging a contract that's beneficial to them as well (for example, offering to make wishes on their behalf with limits to protect yourself- maybe even returning them the same inherent bonuses). And if they refuse? S'cool. Let them go and find one that's interested.


Aratrok wrote:
That sort of revenge requires there to be any clues about your identity. Which is kinda hard to have on a wizard, when nondetection and mind blank are in play.

It does certainly make it more difficult, but they are a smart race of creatures that has just been targeted with snatch, extort, kill, and repeat. I'm sure they will come up with something to end the wizard when they are threatened by random snatch and grabs. Especially by all the comments for the tactic, this is not an situation they will be unprepared for.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

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Blazej wrote:
Aratrok wrote:
That sort of revenge requires there to be any clues about your identity. Which is kinda hard to have on a wizard, when nondetection and mind blank are in play.
It does certainly make it more difficult, but they are a smart race of creatures that has just been targeted with snatch, extort, kill, and repeat. I'm sure they will come up with something to end the wizard when they are threatened by random snatch and grabs. Especially by all the comments for the tactic, this is not an situation they will be unprepared for.

Lol, I love the idea of a group of efreeti investigators tracking down mortals who abuse gate spells.


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Ssalarn wrote:
Blazej wrote:
Aratrok wrote:
That sort of revenge requires there to be any clues about your identity. Which is kinda hard to have on a wizard, when nondetection and mind blank are in play.
It does certainly make it more difficult, but they are a smart race of creatures that has just been targeted with snatch, extort, kill, and repeat. I'm sure they will come up with something to end the wizard when they are threatened by random snatch and grabs. Especially by all the comments for the tactic, this is not an situation they will be unprepared for.
Lol, I love the idea of a group of Efreeti investigators tracking down mortals who abuse gate spells.

/random amusing barely serious imaginary scene.

Efreeti A: I wish Bob was here.
Efreeti B: Granted!
Efreeti A: welp, hes definitely dead.
Efreeti B: Yeah, I wish he was alive.
Efreeti A: Granted!
Efreeti B: So what happened Bob?
Bob: I don't remember. I wish i could.
Efreeti A: Granted!


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Ssalarn wrote:
Blazej wrote:
Aratrok wrote:
That sort of revenge requires there to be any clues about your identity. Which is kinda hard to have on a wizard, when nondetection and mind blank are in play.
It does certainly make it more difficult, but they are a smart race of creatures that has just been targeted with snatch, extort, kill, and repeat. I'm sure they will come up with something to end the wizard when they are threatened by random snatch and grabs. Especially by all the comments for the tactic, this is not an situation they will be unprepared for.
Lol, I love the idea of a group of efreeti investigators tracking down mortals who abuse gate spells.

I choose to picture an efreeti with coat and fedora.

Shadow Lodge

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Blazej wrote:
I choose to picture an efreeti with coat and fedora.

That's how I've ALWAYS pictured them. Have I been DOINGITWRONG?


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Te'Shen wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **...

Since you brought up the red wizard class, you can actually circle magic by yourself. The Red Wizard class allows you to use circle magic with red wizards w/ the red wizard tattoo feat (a requisite for the class) which allow you to super-buff the effective caster level and saving throw DCs.

So you make simulacrums of yourself, and proceed to circle magic to easily and relatively effortlessly increase the power of your spells to an insane point.

Just to get into Red Wizard you get another feat called Tattoo Focus which is essentially Spell Focus + 1/2 Spell Penetration for your chosen school of magic and stacks with Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus, which means by default you're looking at +3 DC / +1 vs SR.

At 10th character level you get to lead Circle Magic with 2-5 casters with the Tattoo Focus feat. You preform a downtime ritual that does the following.

Quote:

Circle Powers: The first use of circle magic is to empower the circle leader with the strength of all the participants. This requires 1 full hour of uninterrupted concentration on the part of all participants and the circle leader. Each participant casts any single prepared spell, which is consumed by the circle and has no effect other than expending the prepared spell. The spell levels expended by the circle participants are totaled as circle bonus levels. Each bonus level may be used to accomplish the following effects.

* Increase the circle leader's caster level by one for every circle bonus level (maximum caster level 40th). This benefit applies to level-dependent variables of a spell such as range or duration, and to level checks (dispel checks, checks to overcome spell resistance, and so on).

*Add Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, or Heighten Spell metamagic feats to spells currently prepared by the circle leader. Each circle bonus level counts as one additional spell level required by the application of a metamagic feat to a spell. The circle leader may add one of three listed feats to a spell even if he does not know the feat or if the addition of the feat would raise the spell level past the circle leader's normal maximum spell level (maximum spell level 20th).

These effects last for 24 hours or until expended. Circle bonus levels may be divided up as the circle leader sees fit. For example, the Red Wizard Hauth Var leads a circle in which four participants each cast a 2nd level spell, so that Hauth Var gains eight circle bonus levels. Hauth Var chooses to use three circle bonus levels to maximize his cone of cold spel, three to increase his caster level from 10th to 13th for all level-based variables in his spells, and two to provide a +2 bonus on any level checks he needs to make. The maximized spell is used up whenever he casts his cone of cold, and the other two effects remain for the next 24 hours. Many high-level Red Wizards lead circles on a daily basis to exact magical power from their apprentices.

With the most conservative possible interpretation of simulacrum, this still means that a 11th level Red Wizard can make up to 5 5th level copies of himself (each having the Tattoo Focus feat) and perform circle magic with himself during the downtime. The five assisting wizards each expend a 3rd level spell slot to give the red mage 15 circle levels, at which point the wizard may now have a +15 to his caster level for the next 24 hours if desired (allowing him to auto-penetrate SR, dispels, non-detection, and be super resistant to all of those things, have super-long duration spells, and supremely wreck things with spells like black tentacles, telekinesis, and spell immunity* spells (cleric spell?).

At 15th level, the same mage can now have up to 9 assistants, and his simulacrums cast up to 4th level spells. So now he can preform the ritual to get 4 * 9 = +36 circle magic levels, at which point he is can hit the cap on CL and auto-kill anything in the game that he wants. If he desires, he can Heighten any Save or Die spell to effective level 20 (net save DC is 10 + 20 + Int modifier + feats & stuff), or empower/maximize anything he wants (all his summoning spells are now both empowered and maximized), or any combination in between.

By 20th level, he can circle-jerk for +45 circle magic levels.

*: The wizard can cast limited wish for a paltry 300 XP to replicate any non-wizard/sorcerer spell of up to 4th level from a prohibited school or 5th level from a permitted school. This means that for 300 XP (which you can pull out of your toilet at this level) you can cast the following beauties:

Spell immunity: Immune to CL/4 4th level or lower spells as if you had infinite SR, so pick up to 10 of the spells you dislike the most (including telekinesis and such) and just be immune to them.

Spell Resistance: Or skip spell immunity and just give yourself a SR equal to 12 + your ludicrous caster level. You ignore your SR when casting spells yourself, so this isn't going to stop you from buffing yourself, but it's going to piss off any other caster.

Death Ward: Enjoy a super-long duration, nigh-undispellable immunity to level drain and the necromancy school.

Disrupting Weapon: Pick a weapon, murder undead with it. You probably have enough of a caster level and effective heightens that this is basically an auto-kill on any undead enemy that you hit with said weapon.

**: Since staffs are awesome and use your caster level as appropriate, if you bothered to invest into UMD enough to pretend to be a spell-trigger item's spells appear on your class' spell list, and then let your massive caster level bonus do the rest. This allows you to toss around spells like...

Holy word, blasphemy, Dictum, Word of Chaos: For those who remember, these spells KILL/DESTROY things with HD less than your CL-10.

Other Fun Bits: Without using any other CL-enhancing things, just your class feature, you can gate creatures up to 80 HD and have them be your minions. Or you can call and control a combination of creatures up to 80 HD, so feel free to gate an army of celestial superbeings into the field.


Chris Lambertz wrote:
Removed some posts and responses from over the weekend. Guys, we know that tempers and emotions can run high, especially in discussions concerning rules and mechanics. Please remember that the person you're talking to is still an actual person on the other side of the screen. It may have been missed, but we have revised our Community Guidelines recently, and I invite you to read them over if you haven't yet. In situations like this, it's probably best to remove yourself from the situation, get away from the keyboard and take a breather, and send us an email (community@paizo.com) if you think a thread requires moderator attention.

I was reading the new guidelines and I found something that doesn't make sense. Under the section for profanity / vulagar speech, it says:

Quote:
Trying to get around our profanity filter or purposefully obscuring profanity/vulgar phrases is not acceptable.

This is exactly what your profanity filter already does. Why does obscuring vulgar language violate the rules? Isn't that something that would be, y'know, preferred?

I'm not sure I understand how the Paizo language filter isn't breaking your own guidelines like this. Take for example a post I made (intended to be jovial) involving a genie and screwing up your wishes. If the phrase was:

"Genie, you're going to grant me a wish and this time you are not going to explicative description it up! >:(" (I think this just actually violated the guideline actually)

Then there's the shorthand for explicative which is to casually censor to the post but keep the gist of it for people who know what you're talking about, which reads like this:

"Genie, you're going to grant me a wish and this time you are not going to **** it up! >:(" violates the rules because it's obscuring speech that could be offensive.

Meanwhile, if not wholly censored, the Paizo language filter would make the same come out to look something like:

"Genie, you're going to grant me a wish and this time you are not going to f@&^ it up! >:(" which is also breaking the rules by obscuring the speech that could be offensive (though it also hints at what the word was to begin with because it only partially censors the word).

Is this a typo in the community guidelines or did you guys mean to automate breaking your own rules?

Other than that, I think the new guidelines are good.


Something else that just recently occurred to me regarding the innate power of spells vs psionics.

The Erudite is considered to be pretty decent. It's a "prepared" manifester in that you choose new powers each day that you can cast from. The "spell to power erudite" is considered to be the strongest class in the game, brokenly so. Make of this what you will.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Ashiel wrote:
This is exactly what your profanity filter already does. Why does obscuring vulgar language violate the rules? Isn't that something that would be, y'know, preferred?

The filter alerts Paizo to the offending post, while manually filtering by swapping an ! for i or @ for a does not, IIRC. So those that dodge the filter escape consideration for moderation, as well as being much more explicit than the random symbols the filter replaces them with.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
This is exactly what your profanity filter already does. Why does obscuring vulgar language violate the rules? Isn't that something that would be, y'know, preferred?
The filter alerts Paizo to the offending post, while manually filtering by swapping an ! for i or @ for a does not, IIRC. So those that dodge the filter escape consideration for moderation, as well as being much more explicit than the random symbols the filter replaces them with.

Wait, how is **** more explicit than F@<#??

I get not dodging the filter. That would be like A.B.C.D. or A B C D, which would allow you to spell or type the word in a readable way while avoiding the language filter.

But I'm kind of failing to see how ****, ____, ////, or some other "fill in the blanks on your own" is something that would be an issue. It's less explicit than what the Paizo's own filter does. It's not dodging the filter. It's never needing the filter to begin with. o____o

Dark Archive

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Ashiel wrote:

Truth be told, I have actually very rarely seen silence actually matter since the spell allows a Will save to negate its affecting a creature and is only possessed by bards and clerics in core, who are both more MAD than most other casters (bards and clerics both have far less incentive to have a really high key casting stat than most arcanists).

I find silence more frequently used as a utility spell than a combat spell for that very reason. Preventing noise and stuff. Even when you make silencing traps or areas, magic item effects with silence (such as traps/magic rooms) only have a DC 14 (unless you're using heighten which is prohibitively expensive to do regularly (especially if, like me, you actually try to keep the resources of antagonists to a reasonable level as opposed to pretending non-PCs have access to infinite funding from the plane of money).

Unless we've been reading the rules for silence incorrectly going back to 3e, it's trivial to cast silence without a save, you just have to target an object rather than a creature (such as the floor, or a rock on the ground), and if you want it to move with the wizard while still denying him his save, you cast it on one of your resident archer's arrows before he shoots the wizard.


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Casting it on an arrow doesn't really work, since the arrow is destroyed on impact.

You can cast silence without a save, but the hard part is doing more than just forcing your target to move- that requires either sticking it to them or an object they have (allowing a save) or tagging an entity whose location you control, like someone capable of grabbing or otherwise locking down the caster (which becomes dramatically harder at higher levels as tripping and grappling go out of style with freedom of movement and flight abilities).

Shadow Lodge

Ashiel wrote:
But I'm kind of failing to see how ****, ____, ////, or some other "fill in the blanks on your own" is something that would be an issue. It's less explicit than what the Paizo's own filter does. It's not dodging the filter. It's never needing the filter to begin with. o____o

I don't think you're supposed to parse those two phrases separately.

Dark Archive

Aratrok wrote:

Casting it on an arrow doesn't really work, since the arrow is destroyed on impact.

You can cast silence without a save, but the hard part is doing more than just forcing your target to move- that requires either sticking it to them or an object they have (allowing a save) or tagging an entity whose location you control, like someone capable of grabbing or otherwise locking down the caster (which becomes dramatically harder at higher levels as tripping and grappling go out of style with freedom of movement and flight abilities).

Huh. Would you look at that. We've been running that 50% of arrows are recoverable regardless of if you hit the guy. I'me that is relevant to the point though. An arrow not being reusable to me doesn't give me any indication that the mage doesn't have a non-reusable chunk of silence embedded in him. I would still think that if you target the arrow-head, and you hit the mage, broken arrow or not, he's still carrying a shard of metal inside him that emits silence on him, at least until he has spent an action or more to remove it.

But failing that, thrown weapons don't break on a hit, you could always use a Javelin or Dagger. You WOULD have to get in closer, but getting "Within 30 feet" is much easier than "past the fighter guarding the mage."

And of course, you can invisibility/silence your fighter of choice and have him ambush/grapple the wizard. Or silence the rogue/bard's dagger and have him stab the wizard with it, or plant a silenced item on the wizard via sleight of hand (maybe slip it into his backpack or the like).

There are still a variety of ways to get around the save, even if you think breaking the arrow would get rid of the silence effect (I don't see any reason it would).

Aratrok wrote:
If you combine the paradigm with 3rd level pearls of power, it means a wizard can purchase a 9th level slot per day for 27,000 gp (3 3rd level pearls), which is amusing.

Wow. That's some effective use of pearls of power.

Nathanael Love wrote:

Keep in mind though-- in 3.5 there are no core races with a +2 to Intelligence.

Even expanding past core you almost always have to take a level adjustment to get +2 Int, unless you get deep enough into splats that you are using Minor Plane-touched which is combining non-core races with an option from a Forgotten Realms product.

I found this comment somewhat odd - It's hardly a "deep into splats option", though it is a Forgotten Realms Option, I know far more GMs who allow it popular non-realms options, such as complete arcane/divine/mage/champion. I've not seen a single table I've played at not allow it, regardless of the setting they're running - Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting: Sun Elf +2 Int -2 Con. There are of course also the various Genasi (pretty sure one of them gets +int), but those have +1 LA.


Darkholme wrote:

Huh. Would you look at that. We've been running that 50% of arrows are recoverable regardless of if you hit the guy. I'me that is relevant to the point though. An arrow not being reusable to me doesn't give me any indication that the mage doesn't have a non-reusable chunk of silence embedded in him. I would still think that if you target the arrow-head, and you hit the mage, broken arrow or not, he's still carrying a shard of metal inside him that emits silence on him, at least until he has spent an action or more to remove it.

But failing that, thrown weapons don't break on a hit, you could always use a Javelin or Dagger. You WOULD have to get in closer, but getting "Within 30 feet" is much easier than "past the fighter guarding the mage."

And of course, you can invisibility/silence your fighter of choice and have him ambush/grapple the wizard. Or silence the rogue/bard's dagger and have him stab the wizard with it, or plant a silenced item on the wizard via sleight of hand (maybe slip it into his backpack or the like).

There are still a variety of ways to get around the save, even if you think breaking the arrow would get rid of the silence effect (I don't see any reason it would).

Yeah, that would be a fair way to run it, and generally how we handle it in my group (the physical object is still there, you'd think, so of course the magic still has something to anchor to). But technically by RAW the arrow is destroyed and no longer a viable target, which means you're either going to need to accept some table variance on the idea of using silence in this way, or just focus on what the rules say, and I'm trying to keep how people I know personally handle things out of the discussion. It's silly, but then again, so is what a wizard is capable of according to the rules. :P

There are definitely a lot of creative ways to nail someone with silence. I mentioned tripping and grappling as a silenced martial above, which tends to fall off a bit as people fly (and are immune to tripping) and gain access to freedom of movement (and are immune to grappling). You can still do it, and you presented a lot of clever ways to manage it, but it does get harder at higher levels.

Quote:
I found this comment somewhat odd - It's hardly a "deep into splats option", though it is a Forgotten Realms Option, I know far more GMs who allow it popular non-realms options, such as complete arcane/divine/mage/champion. I've not seen a single table I've played at not allow it, regardless of the setting they're running - Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting: Sun Elf +2 Int -2 Con. There are of course also the various Genasi (pretty sure one of them gets +int), but those have +1 LA.

It's odd, and innacurate (as you say, it's not deep into splats, it's one of the most commonly used resources), but not wholly wrong. Since we're sticking with core for the discussion, a +2 Int race isn't really available. It's not a big deal though, it's relatively easy to reach benchmarks even without a +2 Int race, and it affects both psions and wizards pretty equally since they're both Int based.


Ashiel wrote:


Pound for pound, I generally think astral constructs tends to produce creatures that are sturdier. For example, your basic astral construct has 18 AC, 15 HP, and construct traits (low-light vision, darkvision, some decent immunities), 1 attack at +4 for 1d4+3 (average 5.5). This makes it a pretty good meat shield and it's not bad at physical offense, and you can pick 1 perk when you create it, such as giving it a 20 ft. fly speed, 30 ft. swim speed, a few more HP, a specific sort of bonus feat, etc.

However, I think summon monster typically produces creatures that are more powerful.

That is basically how I saw it too, but I saw SM as being better because of how versatile it can be.


Aratrok wrote:

Casting it on an arrow doesn't really work, since the arrow is destroyed on impact.

You can cast silence without a save, but the hard part is doing more than just forcing your target to move- that requires either sticking it to them or an object they have (allowing a save) or tagging an entity whose location you control, like someone capable of grabbing or otherwise locking down the caster (which becomes dramatically harder at higher levels as tripping and grappling go out of style with freedom of movement and flight abilities).

Put it on the armor the party fighter/melee guy is wearing.

If you fighting in an enclosed area that 20 foot radius can trap the caster in a corner.

Dark Archive

@wraithstrike

Yeah, that one works pretty well so long as you're not somewhere the mage can use flight or levitation to get out of it.

The only problem there is that the opposing fighter types *COULD* force your fighter into a strategic withdrawal, taking his silence with him. which is why my preference is to try to stick it on the mage if you can - some thrown weapons could work, like a shuriken (I think I saw that shuriken don't break on a hit) or a dagger (I know those don't), or the idea of stealth-depositing a silenced copper piece into a pocket on his backpack, if you can do so right before combat.

Of course, in our home games, we would just cast it on an arrowhead, but I guess how I can see there being some table variation on that application.


IMO and from direct experience D&D 3.5e Psionics is broken.

First example is comparing the Vigor psionic power to the arcane Greater False Life spell:

A 9th level Psion has 120 power points (with +4 stat boosting item and two low level cognizance crystals). 4 augmented Vigor powers =180 hit points, 36 power point cost. The poor fighter character how can he compete with such omnipotent power.

A 9th level level Wizard has 4 4th level spells. Uses all his 4th level slots to cast Greater False Life getting 80 hit points. Costing him a huge loss in power for those extra hit points. At 9th level, 4th level spells play a significant factor to the success of defeating encounters.

While the Psion is still bristling with power (84 power points).

Second example: Is the Shield Other divine spell equivalent to the Share Pain psionic power coupled to a Psion's Psicrystal (familiar):

The Shield Other spell requires teamwork. Another player's character (usually a Tank character with lots of hit points) takes the damage for the fragile spell-caster.

While the Share Pain power coupled with a PsiCrystal requires no teamwork, an overpowered ability that allows the Psion character to outshine martial and Cleric (tank build) characters. Providing the Psion with an extra 20 hit points.

A 9th level Psion essentially has 236 hit points. If someone doesn't consider that broken, I would like to hear the reason why?

Grand Lodge

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Temporary hit points don't stack, so I assume you are talking about recasting Vigor/Greater False Life between combats.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Temporary hit points don't stack, so I assume you are talking about recasting Vigor/Greater False Life between combats.

Bad TOZ, crushing somebody's elaborate math-based argument with one sentence. You could at least expand it into a paragraph to show that you're trying ;-)

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Also, Share Pain requires a standard action to dismiss, so you are risking the destruction of your psicrystal for that extra 20 HP.

Gorbacz wrote:
Bad TOZ, crushing somebody's elaborate math-based argument with one sentence.

I don't know that it is crushed. I was just looking to clarify the intent.

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