What if a GM were to house rule that guns didn't have any misfire or jam chance, but also lost the touch attack at close range mechanic?
Would Gunslingers become a class that no one wanted to play?
Would power gamers who scoured the net for builds involving Reloading Hands on intelligent Ioun Stones and prehensile beards look elsewhere for character concepts?
I'm just wondering what would realistically happen. I've got a Gunslinger IMC who gets in 5-6 attacks at level 8 and has only had his pistols misfire -- once or twice, all campaign.
I don't mind the flavor of the class but don't like the fiddly rules associated with misfire that seemed designed to balance the fiddly touch AC rules (which I also do not like).
Any suggestions on what could be done to further balance the class after these house rules were implemented would also be welcome. Remember, I want things simple, with few fiddly rules that clever players can come up with ways to effectively min/max into OP-land.
Interesting.
I think you'd need to make some example characters and then compare them - Archer vs Pistolero vs Musket Master. After that, you'll have a better idea of whether any one is 'better' and might need further balancing.
Archers get many more feats, so should be more versatile; however they also want both dex and str to be high. The str is needed to increase damage, whereas gunslingers get dex to damage, however it also makes them better in melee. Deeds might tip the balance, particularly the 'Up close and deadly' deed once it becomes free (by using signature deed) after L11 for a pistolero.
Longbows vs guns: longbows have a greater range and need less feats (no rapid reload needed); they have access to eg gravity bow spell benefit and bracers of archery plus other magic items. Guns can be double-barrelled, but without the touch AC attack that -4 penalty might be significant; guns and their ammo cost a lot more, which is not important after about L10. Guns are also noisy, to the detriment of stealthy types and anyone trying not to alert a lot of enemies.
(As for misfires: I have a spellslinger whose musket misfires on a 1-3; in practice, I didn't get a single misfire below level 8 - snce then, I've misfired more often than every other round (2 shots per round). Statistics.)
There would still be a place of the Gunslinger, in my option, but things would need to be looked at closely and a few things would need to be re-worked for the class. The Deadeye, Quick Clear, and Expert Loading deeds would all be 100% pointless with this change. Also, Gun Training's misfire reduction would be invalidated. On a pure power point of view, adding Dexterity to damage would be one of the only things the Gunslinger would have going for it. Even with that, you'd still probably be better off going Fighter and taking Firearms as your first weapon training and taking weapon focus/specialization in your preferred gun.
Now, for balancing the class after these changes, Ultimate Options: Grit and Gunslingers and products like it can help with providing replacement deeds for the ones that are now useless, though some of them will also have the assumption of misfires and attacking touch AC. For Gun Training, I would say they should have a static bonus to attack rolls for the guns taken with the ability. Kind of ripping off Weapon Training should be fine:
Gun Training (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a gunslinger can select one specific type of firearm (such as an axe musket, blunderbuss, musket, or pistol). She gains a bonus equal to her Dexterity modifier on damage rolls when firing that type of firearm. She also gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls with that type of firearm.
Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the gunslinger picks up another type of firearm, gaining these bonuses for those types as well. In addition, the bonuses to attack rolls with firearm types previously selected increase by +1 each.
You might also consider them letting their gunslinger levels counting as fighter levels for the purposes of feat prerequisites.
And I almost forgot, with this change Early Firearms are much weaker. Their range increments are pathetic. Not only would a bow be a no-brainer in comparison, even crossbows would be a better choice. If you made this change, you should probably use all Advanced Firearms or firearm stats from a different book that doesn't assume that they hit at touch AC.
I think misfires bring an interesting way to add a risk/reward to using firearms. Though, it's only proven incredibly annoying to my gunslinger player, even when I let him quick clear as a swift action.
If you removed touch attacks from firearms, there's really no reason to ever use them aside from cool factor and the ridiculous crit modifier. They'd just be crossbows, but worse. Iterative attacks and adding Strength to damage makes bows work for a ranged build. For firearms, you need a lot of feats and a good BAB get iterative attacks, and only the gunslinger can get gun training to make them viable as a ranged weapon.
My largest problem with the gunslinger lies with an issue that the fighter also suffers from. They don't really have anything to do outside of shooting things. They literally solve every problem by shooting it. If they can't shoot it, then the player sits there twiddling their thumbs while other classes have more ways to deal with problems. This is supposed to be a class where you're playing a character like Clint Eastwood, who's able to pull off great feats by sheer force of grit and awesomeness. Grit and deeds seemed like a great way to encapsulate this. However, almost every deed involves firearms and nothing else.
If I changed the gunslinger, I would do the following:
1) Change firearms so they no longer grant iterative touch attacks. I would either:
a) Make all early firearms have larger damage dice, but require a minimum move action to reload.
b) Make firearms add Dex to damage innately, but no longer do damage on touch.
c) Make all firearms require a minimum move action to reload, but Dex to damage comes as result of a gun property, similar to composite bows.
2) Adjust the gunslinger to reflect the above changes to firearms so they can do interesting things with firearms that other classes cannot.
3) Design the gunslinger to be more of a rogueish master of arms. I would accomplish this by:
a) Enable and encourage the gunslinger to wield multiple weapons for adapting to different combat situations.
b) Create more non-firearm deeds, such as allowing the gunslinger to spend a grit point to boost a skill check. Maybe even let the gunslinger choose their deeds.
c) Create some high level abilities to incentivize players to play a full gunslinger rather than multiclass after level 5.
My largest problem with the gunslinger lies with an issue that the fighter also suffers from. They don't really have anything to do outside of shooting things. They literally solve every problem by shooting it. If they can't shoot it, then the player sits there twiddling their thumbs while other classes have more ways to deal with problems.
This is only a problem for a player who builds their character that way. All it takes is one trait and one skill point per level (maybe through sacrificing the bonus hit point per level from preferred class) to overcome it. Your gunslinger could be a master of UMD, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, or whatever.
Easy peasy, unless the player is a total munchkin who twinks for DPS so he can insist his character isn't OP because all he can do is DPS (elbowing his munchkin buddy and winking, nyuk-nyuk-nyuk!)
I actually can dig the idea if giving guns the Dex bonus to damage as an inherent property, rather than a gunslinger ability. As a means of offsetting the loss of the obnoxious ranged touch attack mechanic. In conjunction with just getting rid of misfires as well.
In my current campaign the gunslinger seems to crit at least once a combat but in two years of playing his gun has jammed maybe twice. I am... suspicious of the usefulness of this jam mechanic when it comes to balancing anything.
I actually can dig the idea if giving guns the Dex bonus to damage as an inherent property, rather than a gunslinger ability. As a means of offsetting the loss of the obnoxious ranged touch attack mechanic. In conjunction with just getting rid of misfires as well.In my current campaign the gunslinger seems to crit at least once a combat but in two years of playing his gun has jammed maybe twice. I am... suspicious of the usefulness of this jam mechanic when it comes to balancing anything.
Misfire mechanic is entirely luck-based. It's no hindrance if you have good luck. However, the gunslinger in my game suffers misfires at least twice every combat. His luck is so terrible that I houseruled using Quick Clear by spending a grit point is a swift action instead of a move action. His crits are devastating and frequently ended combats between levels 5 and 7. However, they stopped being immediate combat-enders around level 8 where he started encountering enemies with more than 100 health.
I bought a new set of dice at a convention where I played in a PFS game. I rolled three consecutive misfires. Never used those dice again, except when I'm DMing and want the bad guys to roll poorly. A guy at the convention said I should have demanded a refund from the vendor.
A -5 to hit is entirely lucked based. It doesn't matter if you have good luck.
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I have heard of people replacing the touch ac mechanic with a penetration rating system, although I am unsure on the specific mechanics.
Typically when we do a penetration based system we chuck misfires and touch attacks out the window and then give every gun a PR (Penetration Rating). Early 1-handed firearms have PR 2, and early 2-handed firearms have PR 4, where PR allows you to negate that value in armor, natural armor, or shield bonuses to the targets AC. Firearms automatically gain their enhancement bonus to their PR, so a +5 pistol can ignore up to 7 points of a target's AC.
It works well and it opens up some room in the core Gunslinger to cut out the deeds that are wrapped up in trying to compensate for misfires or extend the touch range (typically we just replace them with the Pistolero deeds and then drop that archetype entirely). So far everyone in our local groups has been really happy with that system.
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What if a GM were to house rule that guns didn't have any misfire or jam chance, but also lost the touch attack at close range mechanic?
Would Gunslingers become a class that no one wanted to play?
You'd have a class that would essentially become a crippled fighter who pays 1 (or is it 10 gps) per swing.
There would also be absolutely no reason to bring guns into the setting in the first place. They'd be laughable weapons compared to swords, bows, and crossbows, as they bring no advantage into combat but remain cost heavy weapons to use.
That's not even a little bit true. Gunslinger's would still have better skills, good light armor AC, an array of unique weapons with useful options, and a variety of useful deeds. Firearms would still be the only weapon capable of dealing with swarms, their alchemical cartridges provide great options at levels prior to where magical options are readily available... Basically the list goes on. Campaign settings like the absolutely amazing Thunderscape toss Pathfinder's poorly designed firearm system out the window entirely and treat firearms much like any other weapon and it works very well, with far fewer issues than the core options.
That's not even a little bit true. Gunslinger's would still have better skills, good light armor AC, an array of unique weapons with useful options, and a variety of useful deeds. Firearms would still be the only weapon capable of dealing with swarms, their alchemical cartridges provide great options at levels prior to where magical options are readily available... Basically the list goes on. Campaign settings like the absolutely amazing Thunderscape toss Pathfinder's poorly designed firearm system out the window entirely and treat firearms much like any other weapon and it works very well, with far fewer issues than the core options.What if a GM were to house rule that guns didn't have any misfire or jam chance, but also lost the touch attack at close range mechanic?
Would Gunslingers become a class that no one wanted to play?
You'd have a class that would essentially become a crippled fighter who pays 1 (or is it 10 gps) per swing.
There would also be absolutely no reason to bring guns into the setting in the first place. They'd be laughable weapons compared to swords, bows, and crossbows, as they bring no advantage into combat but remain cost heavy weapons to use.
While I agree with you that guns have more interesting options, I do agree with LazarX that taking away penetration basically makes them inferior to crossbows, a weapon designed to be the inferior counterpart to bows. While firearms do have some cool options that bows don't have, I feel Ultimate Combat only goes halfway with that. The gunslinger feels like a fighter that trades armor and bonus feats for a few cute abilities that a player rarely uses because he'd rather save his grit for negating misfires.
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While I agree with you that guns have more interesting options, I do agree with LazarX that taking away penetration basically makes them inferior to crossbows, a weapon designed to be the inferior counterpart to bows. While firearms do have some cool options that bows don't have, I feel Ultimate Combat only goes halfway with that. The gunslinger feels like a fighter that trades armor and bonus feats for a few cute abilities that a player rarely uses because he'd rather save his grit for negating misfires.
That's not even a little bit true. Gunslinger's would still have better skills, good light armor AC, an array of unique weapons with useful options, and a variety of useful deeds. Firearms would still be the only weapon capable of dealing with swarms, their alchemical cartridges provide great options at levels prior to where magical options are readily available... Basically the list goes on. Campaign settings like the absolutely amazing Thunderscape toss Pathfinder's poorly designed firearm system out the window entirely and treat firearms much like any other weapon and it works very well, with far fewer issues than the core options.
Which isn't an issue if you get rid of touch AC and misfires. Suddenly I'm not wasting my core class ability to keep my weapon working (assuming that's even an issue at all and I didn't just select options to lower my misfire rating to 0), I'm using it to dodge attacks, make enemies flat-footed, get free maneuvers that bypass CMD, etc.
And I'm doing it with a weapon that deals B&P damage, crits on a x4, and is capable of the largest attack routines in the game.
Beside which, I actually don't have a problem with systems that use a penetration rating, but targeting touch AC is so powerful it's why they tried to "balance" it with expensive ammunition and misfires. Toss it out the window, along with misfires, and you're already over halfway to a consistent, functional, and well balanced Gunslinger.
Also, It's probably not wise to ignore the fact that between Nimble, bascially being Dex SAD, and light armor proficiencies, the Gunslinger can have one of the more competitive ACs in the game to go along with his oodles of cool tricks, 4+Int skills, 2 good saves, 5 bonus feats, etc.
Aye, but I still think the gunslinger should have been given more fun deeds. Most of the deeds are not very exciting, especially the ones later in the game. I would have liked to see more deeds about doing dramatic, actiony stuff aside from just shooting things. Also, when you nerf firearms, it becomes harder to justify them being a gunslinger-only thing. And because of poor design choices with the gunslinger coupled with Pathfinder encouraging specializing in one weapon, a gunslinger cannot really be the "master of arms" kind of guy that uses a variety of firearms to adapt to different situations. This was the biggest disappointment my gunslinger player had with the class.
I do ponder the idea of making penetration be a gunslinger deed instead of an inherent property of firearms.
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I do ponder the idea of making penetration be a gunslinger deed instead of an inherent property of firearms.
Take Deadeye, and change it so that the first sentence reads "the gunslinger can resolve an attack against touch AC instead of normal AC when firing within her firearm's first range increment."
So you can hit touch AC, but it costs you the point of grit to do it. Then go through and murder the Pistolero and Musket Master, and make their Deeds optional choices in place of deeds like Quick Clear (for example, in our game a Gunslinger can choose either Up Close and Deadly or Fast Musket in place of Quick Clear).
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So far with our discussion, I think a reworked gunslinger might look like this:
1) Firearms target normal AC, but a firearm wielder adds Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with a firearm.
2) A non-broken firearm has a misfire value of 0 when wielded by a proficient character. For a non-proficient character, this value increases by the firearm's listed misfire value. A broken firearm gains a +4 misfire value.
3) Firearm ammunition gains a reduced price (though honestly, I think arrows are way underpriced). Gunsmithing could be compensated by some other means.
4) Deadeye deed allows a gunslinger to spend a grit point to target touch AC on his next firearm attack. If an ability reduces the cost of this deed to 0 or lower, the reduction only applies to the first shot fired in a round.
5) Quick Clear is replaced with another deed that allows the gunslinger to spend a grit and gain a bonus on a Dexterity-based skill check, Intimidate check, or a Bluff check. This might be somewhat similar to the swashbuckler's panache.
6) Gun Training grants a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls made with a firearm. This bonus increases by 1 at 9th, 14th, and 17th levels. A gunslinger adds his gunslinger levels to fighter levels for the purpose of feat requirements. If a gunslinger does not have fighter levels, he must choose a type of firearm for any feat that lists fighter level as a prerequisite and requires selecting a type of weapon.
7) Do something that makes Pistolero and Musket Master balanced choices or kill them outright.
All of that sounds interesting, Cyrad.
Of course there are ten new classes coming out soon so munchkin players who would have abused the gunslinger will have already moved on by the time this discussion is wrapped up!
As for lowering the cost of gun ammo, just make it cost everyone the same as it costs a gunslinger to make. Which makes me wonder - RAW, what prevents a gunslinger from continually crafting ammo on the cheap and then selling it for half full value?
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Also, I honestly like the idea that a musket sacrifices attacks per round for greater damage per shot and improved range. While I admit that two-handed firearms aren't really viable without deadshot or full-attacking, it annoyed me that Musket Master did away with that dynamic, because a musket that can be reloaded like a pistol is better than a pistol in every way except a slightly increased misfire value. Instead of eliminating the weaknesses of the musket, I felt like Musket Master should amplify the strengths to make the weaknesses worth bearing.
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Also, I honestly like the idea that a musket sacrifices attacks per round for greater damage per shot and improved range. While I admit that two-handed firearms aren't really viable without deadshot or full-attacking, it annoyed me that Musket Master did away with that dynamic, because a musket that can be reloaded like a pistol is better than a pistol in every way except a slightly increased misfire value. Instead of eliminating the weaknesses of the musket, I felt like Musket Master should amplify the strengths to make the weaknesses worth bearing.
So much this. There should be more weapon/build combos that make making a single attack worthwhile.
Part of why I dislike the Crossbowman archetype for the Fighter so much is that they clearly had a good idea (make making a single attack a competitive option), and then instead made all of the class abilities crappy consolation prizes that aren't even consolation prizes because you have to plan to use them. Just awful. And of course the insult to injury is that now since that terrible archetype exists, the odds of seeing a good archetype are incredibly low.
I'd like to have seen a Musket Master that gained the ability to pile more and more things onto Dead Shot, or reduced the action economy so they could use it as an attack action, and/or who got the Vital Strike chain for free.