I'm running a fantasy RPG, using the Torg/Masterbook system. And one of my players is playing a Paladin - badly. Badly enough I finally stripped him of his powers last session, and now I need to establish a quest/test for him to try to regain them.
Background: Setting bears a resemblance to historical 1750ish. Characters are Scions of the Thuringian Empire, a Germanic nation. The Paladin is the Grandson of Voivode Ivan "the Terrible" Vassili of Pannonia - a Principality founded by criminals and outcasts, renowned for its connection to the Slavers' Guild (a legal and tolerated, though not moral, practice). The player insists on playing characters from this country, then playing white hats who are abolitionists. btw, the character's family are known for impaling their enemies of pikes, or ordering their throats slit while they sleep. And the Vassilis are one of the "nice" families in the land.
So we have trouble to start with. Next, he chose to be a Paladin of St. Michael, Patron Saint of Crusaders. The Knights of St. Michael (of which only perhaps 3 are Paladins) are a Militant Order, dedicated to fighting the enemies of the Church - specifically: Goblinoids, Demons, or anyone in league with them. The player is very laid back, easy going, and does not play militant types well. (In a past game, he played a Spartan, the only Spartan Hoplite in the City-State who would rather drink, womanize, and go shopping, rather than fight.) Also, his definition of hating slavery is flexible when pretty slave girls are throwing themselves at his character.
So really the problem is that I should never have allowed him to play a character from Pannonia, or a Paladin. But that's in the past.
Sunday, the party is in a mystical vision quest (easiest way to explain it). The point of which was for the characters to learn things about themselves. The final segment, they wake up in a Dungeon (D&D map with encounters, not a literal one).
They are all in loinclothes, and have all memories and skills, except for any personal memories. This meant some advantages and flaws were not recalled, though any that can't be casually ignored (such as High levels of Devotion - such as to a Code of Honor or Faith) were still noted, as these inform who the character is.
Part one of the Dungeon, the characters use their knowledge and innate abilities to resolve six traps, allowing them access to the next part. His part involved using Faith to Detect Miracle, allowing him to see through an illusion, and flip the switch.
Part two, they find six alcoves with one or two items - some of their personal equipment. His alcove contained his Sword/Holy Symbol. Then the party had to fight off a bunch of illusory goblinoids, while the party rogue opened a hidden door, so they could move on to part three.
Part Three, each character enters a room. Inside are two wardrobes, containing one outfit each. Each reflects an aspect of the character. For the other five characters, the outfit chosen determined which adventure reward they got. For the Paladin it was a pass/fail.
Specifically:
Terrall (Saxon Noble/Warrior): choice between a traditional Huntsman's outfit (lose Allergy:Nuts flaw), and a Thuringian Officer's Uniform (lose Backwards flaw - a trait that prevents him from using modern magical devices). He chose the latter, preferring to look forward rather than to the past.
Frederick (Flanders Puck (Human/Halfling hybrid) Noble/Wizard): Wizard's Robe (6 adds in Spells and Arcane Knowledges) or Thuringian Officer's Uniform (a promotion and additional responsibilities in the military). He chose the Wizard, rather than the soldier, as many can be soldiers, only a few have the Gift.
Wilhelm (Bavarian Commoner/Rogue): Rogue's Outfit (a bag of money - about a year's pay for him) or the Uniform (remove Criminal flaw - a Pardon). The latter was a 'better' choice, but neither was 'wrong'. He chose the Uniform, seeing that he needed to trust others more.
Katrina (Amazon/Prussian Noble/Sorceress/Warrior: not recalling her Prussian side, she had to choose between the uniform of her mother's land's elite warriors (some points in martial skills) or the gown of a noble/sorceress (points in magical skills she had been avoiding as 'dishonorable'). She choose the latter, feeling she needed to be a leader, not a soldier.
Nefertari (Amazon Slave/Priestess): traditional leathers (the chance to stay in her own distant past, and be free) or a slave shift (6 miracles). She learned in the tests that she belonged with these people, that her goddess wanted her to be there - and chose to risk being enslaved again (her tribe are almost entirely slaves) to fulfill the goddess' wishes.
Josef (Pannonian Noble/Paladin): Nobles Outfit (Fall from Grace) or Simple Robe (gain new Miracles, including a new Holy Fire miracle created specifically for him/his Order - because I saw a lack to be addressed). The Former represents his noble heritage, the latter the plain, modest, garb of a monk (aka a Knight of St. Michael). As a Paladin - which he did know he was, it was the noble side the character didn't recall - he should be humble and pious. But he chose the Princely clothes.
Now, I was concerned about this being an unfair situation. None of the other characters had a pass/fail test. But I consulted the other players, most of whom are also capable GMs. Each agreed that as a Paladin, he should be held to a higher standard. That a test of his worthiness was not inappropriate. Especially since he is not playing an inspiring beacon of faith. A few of the party do not have any faith, despite adventuring/serving with the paladin for years. Katrina actually did gain faith - in the Amazon pantheon, rather than the Paladin's god.
And he seldom remembers to use his Miracles, unless the other players remind him. A few sessions earlier he complained about not wanting to do nothing but heal in combat. Note: this is not D&D. It is very possible to multi-action, and invoke a Miracle and attack. And the Healing Miracle normally takes one hour to perform, and is not used in combat anyway. As a Paladin, he has the ability to perform the Miracle in one combat round (1/day/person). Also, because of the character points spent on his Divine powers, he is less impressive in combat compared to the others if he doesn't use them to buff up.
So, he chose the fancy clothes. And I declared that he had lost all his Divine powers (Paladin special abilities, Miracles, and Blessing Vow that increased his Strength). But he has the chance to atone.
Next session, I intend that he should travel to Koln, where his order is based. The Cardinal, and his advisers will not be available (and will remain unavailable for a week). During that time, he is being tested. I intend that he should train with the Knights, meditate on the holy scriptures, and perform acts of charity. If he does not, then the Cardinal will simply tell him "Your Highness, go home." He will lose the abilities forever, but the points he spent (in character creation and in game) will be replaced by points in the Strength attribute (only a slight loss of points). This will raise it to what the Blessing Vow granted, and leave him a decent warrior.
If he passes the test, he will be given the Rite of Atonement. And be given two options: renounce his Lands, Titles, and basically give up on Courting Katrina (he really isn't in the running anyway, since he - player and character - lacks the decisiveness or force of personality needed to be the next Emperor - which Katrina's future husband will be). If he does, he will regain standard clerical ability, and become a simple priest. He will also retain his military rank.
Or, he can continue to strive to regain his Paladinhood.
Now, here is where I turn to you. First, I'd like some more affirmation that I'm not being one of those jerk GMs who see a PC Paladin as an excuse to be a jerk and create lose/lose situations. Anyone see the tests thus far being unfair?
Second, if he doesn't screw up the next part - and I'm going to allow help from the peanut gallery (other players can kibitz/offer commentary even though their characters are not present) - I'm sure he will insist on going for the Paladinhood.
I intend to warn him before he decides, that this is all or nothing. If he tries to become a Paladin again, and does not live up to the expectations/fails the test(s), he will never regain any of his lost abilities, and will not reclaim any of the lost points.
Second, I'm not sure what to do for the test to regain Paladinhood. The only thought I've had thus far is to tie it in to the search for a lost party member. One of the players was no longer available, and his character was captured by monstrous creatures. The party knows what took him, and found where he was at one point. They are still looking for him as their other responsibilities allow.
Connecting the search to his test makes it something important to the rest of the party. So they aren't tagging along on the Paladin's personal quest. And it means that it won't be overtly obvious that it is the quest. So the player won't be on his best behavior solely because he thinks that his character's Patron Saint is watching. I intend, that he should be on his best behavior because that is what a Paladin (or one worthy of that title) should do, not because he might gain something for doing it.
Maybe he shouldn't regain his Paladinhood.
Also, since the game and system isn't D&D (I actually love TORG), there's no reason why you can't give him his power level back, just not as a Paladin.
Furthermore, it sounds like he doesn't want to be that Paladin. He wants to be a freedom fighter, he wants to play against type, and he wants to wield significant power. But none of that means that it has to be a Paladin. I suspect he actually wants to play something else, but he doesn't know it.
Talk to the player about this. He's probably going for the Paladinhood because he wants Big Good Power, and he thinks Big Good Power = Paladin. Disabuse him of that notion.
Does being a Paladin make him more powerful than the rest of the party?
GreenDragon1133 wrote: First, I'd like some more affirmation that I'm not being one of those jerk GMs who see a PC Paladin as an excuse to be a jerk and create lose/lose situations. Anyone see the tests thus far being unfair? Well, if I were this player, I would be upset. It seems that his idea of a paladin is very different than yours. If I were in his place, I would think you are punishing the character, and I would not understand why.
GreenDragon1133 wrote: Second, ... If he tries to become a Paladin again, and does not live up to the expectations/fails the test(s), he will never regain any of his lost abilities, and will not reclaim any of the lost points. Why wouldn't you let him regain his lost points and rebuild the character? If this were to happen to me, I would think that you are now punishing me, the player, and that would certainly make me angry.
GreenDragon1133 wrote: Second, I'm not sure what to do for the test to regain Paladinhood.... I intend, that he should be on his best behavior because that is what a Paladin (or one worthy of that title) should do, not because he might gain something for doing it. Whoa, you are thinking about keeping the place, time and nature of this test a secret from the player? From the player's perspective, one day you would announce out of the blue "You passed!" or more likely "Sorry, you failed." If the player isn't part of the process of the redemption, you are cutting out the most important person. If you are really open to this guy running a paladin, ask him what the test should be. His answer will also give you insight on what his version of paladin is.
Listen, it seems that you and he have such a different concept of a paladin and how they should be run that it is really incompatible for him to run one in your campaign. I strongly suggest that you talk with him, and together the two of you rebuild this character into something that you both can accept.
Wrong John Silver wrote: Maybe he shouldn't regain his Paladinhood.
Also, since the game and system isn't D&D (I actually love TORG), there's no reason why you can't give him his power level back, just not as a Paladin.
Furthermore, it sounds like he doesn't want to be that Paladin. He wants to be a freedom fighter, he wants to play against type, and he wants to wield significant power. But none of that means that it has to be a Paladin. I suspect he actually wants to play something else, but he doesn't know it.
Talk to the player about this. He's probably going for the Paladinhood because he wants Big Good Power, and he thinks Big Good Power = Paladin. Disabuse him of that notion.
He seems to take it because it is 'special'. There are about 15 paladins in a subcontinent of about 100 million people. And he wanted that 'special'-ness, even before I actually added rules to make them different from normal clerics.
Quote: Does being a Paladin make him more powerful than the rest of the party? Almost the opposite, because he spent points on the abilities, then doesn't use them, he is less powerful than the others, and is the first to go down in a fight, or the one with the worst injuries afterwards.
The player's portrayal has made me think that all future pc paladins should allocate the advantage points for the role, and then work toward it in game. Then if they fail to achieve the lofty standards, those points can be reallocated to some other advantage.
Mythic Super Jager Overlord wrote: Well, if I were this player, I would be upset. It seems that his idea of a paladin is very different than yours. If I were in his place, I would think you are punishing the character, and I would not understand why. I did discuss it with him after the session, and tried to explain my point of view.
Quote: Why wouldn't you let him regain his lost points and rebuild the character? If this were to happen to me, I would think that you are now punishing me, the player, and that would certainly make me angry. I kind of feel that if he strives for the heights, there should be a consequence if he fails.
Quote: Whoa, you are thinking about keeping the place, time and nature of this test a secret from the player? From the player's perspective, one day you would announce out of the blue "You passed!" or more likely "Sorry, you failed." If the player isn't part of the process of the redemption, you are cutting out the most important person. If you are really open to this guy running a paladin, ask him what the test should be. His answer will also give you insight on what his version of paladin is. My rationale is that he should approach everything as if it were part of the test. That every adventure he should be thinking "this is a chance to show that I am worthy. This is a chance to show the world what makes a Paladin special." And I'm of the opinion that that special-ness comes from within first, and is reflected in game benefits second. But talking to the player is never a bad idea.
I'd suggest telling him what being a Paladin entails in the world you are gamemastering, so he knows what is expected.
Maybe give him a handout when he gets to that temple to regain his paladinness? Kinda like a contract to sign... the paladinly oath
He actually already had an Oath, introduced early in the campaign.
The one I wrote out had three tenets:
1) Defend the Faith
2) Defend the Empire
3) Defend the weak & see justice done.
He then wrote out a seven tenet one that he had already violated several times in previous sessions. I pointed that out, and the fact that his was impossible to uphold. So he accepted mine.
Also worth noting. The choice of two wardrobes was not an out of the blue, first time thing. He has on a number of occasions been to vain. I've not had to directly warn him, as the other players have done it for me. Also the exact choices were: "fancy clothes" and "simple robe".
I've had a talk with the player. He has realized the mistake he made with the wardrobes, and has found it obvious in hindsight.
I asked him what he thought would be a proper test. His first thought was the twelve labors of Hercules. I told him it didn't need to be that difficult. But we are on the same page.
I also advised him of my thoughts about the all or nothing if he wants to fully regain paladinhood, he is thinking about it, but will probably go for it.
You have an out of game problem.
Solve it out of game.
Until you and the player can agree that Paladin means X, and paladins do Y, nothing else will matter.
Wrong John Silver wrote: Maybe he shouldn't regain his Paladinhood.
Also, since the game and system isn't D&D (I actually love TORG), there's no reason why you can't give him his power level back, just not as a Paladin.
Furthermore, it sounds like he doesn't want to be that Paladin. He wants to be a freedom fighter, he wants to play against type, and he wants to wield significant power. But none of that means that it has to be a Paladin. I suspect he actually wants to play something else, but he doesn't know it.
Talk to the player about this. He's probably going for the Paladinhood because he wants Big Good Power, and he thinks Big Good Power = Paladin. Disabuse him of that notion.
I agree.
You seem to be driving the rails pretty hard, I suggest stepping back a bit and thinking about what character this player actually wants to play. He seems to want to play a broadly benevolent nobleman, not your monkish/ascetic conception of a Paladin, which seems based on the Knights Hospitaller? If I were you I'd give him all his points back and let him remake his character to fit his concept, without penalty.
edit: From your later description, he sounds a little bit like some 'pot-smoking hipster doofus' "Kramer" type players I've seen, who can come across a bit disassociated - their words don't necessarily tally very well with their actions. That being the case I suggest you go more by his demonstrated in-play playstyle, less by what he says out of game.
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