|
I'm a little confused about when I can and cannot use skills, so, here's a specific scenario I'm facing
Ezren is exploring and has encountered "Secret Stash", Check to Defeat - Wisdom, Perception: 9.
Ezren has Wisdom d8. He has a "Night Watch" ally in hand, "Recharge ... to add 1d10 to your Perception check."
Since Ezren does not have Perception, can he use the Night Watch? If so, what dice would he roll?
From page 11:
If your character doesn’t have any of the skills listed for a check, you can still attempt the check (unless you’re trying to recharge a card; see Recharge on page 15), but your die is a d4. You may use a skill that isn’t listed on your character card only if another card gives your character that skill.
So you would roll 1d4+1d10.
and ... only if he does not have wisdom listed as a skill.
The "default" skill can only be used if you have no other skill available for the check. In this case he could not add the die as he has Wisdom d8.
Rulebook page 11 :
If your character doesn’t have any of the skills listed for a check, you can still attempt the check (unless you’re trying to recharge a card; see Recharge on page 15), but your die is a d4.
If this is the case why wasn't this caught in the recent FAQ upgrade.
I have just looked at the post and maybe this just applies to an Ally which is the case here.
Yep. Mr. Night Watch can see things Seoni can't.
Funny that you get a d10+d6+2 (average 11) when he's helping Harsk, but only d10+d4 (average 8) when he's helping Seoni. I guess he's distracted by the outfit.
I have not read every post on here and should not have to, I tend to focus on things that catch my eye or I need to clarify.
This is a fairly strong contradiction of the rule.
If your character doesn’t have any of the skills listed for a check
|
|
From page 11:
If your character doesn’t have any of the skills listed for a check, you can still attempt the check (unless you’re trying to recharge a card; see Recharge on page 15), but your die is a d4. You may use a skill that isn’t listed on your character card only if another card gives your character that skill.
So you would roll 1d4+1d10.
This is actually the root of my confusion. The first sentence would (IMHO) lead a person to believe Ezren could use the Night Watch for a d4 + d10 Perception check. But the second sentence seems to contradict this by saying you need a card giving you the skill (which, again IMHO, makes the first sentence moot since I assume a card "giving" you the skill would tell you which dice to use).
So ... does Night Watch "give" Ezren the skill? No,. At least not explicitly.
Maybe that's the real question? What constitutes "giving" a character a temporary skill?
TClifford, you're kind of my hero.
Without even or only it reads as said. I am really not sure if this is a common thing among rpg gamers that they seem to think it is ok to add words to change the meaning of a rule.
I really don't see how we are expected to remember wicch implied word to add where.
I am sure there has been posts from both Mike and Vic that interpret this both ways,
Rules should be written that are not open to this sort of duel implied meaning. If they slip through then net then that is what errata and a FAQ is for.
If you read my post my question was does this interpretation only apply to allies.
A clearer wording would be ... If you do not have a listed skill ...
IMO any implies you have to use a skill you possess before you get the default die. Which makes sense because you would naturally choose to skills you have. I can even see how an Ally would be an exception.
I think it is reasonable to ask if this clarification applies to all boon's and if it can be added to the fAQ.
I do believe you as indicated by my statement above :-" have just looked at the post and maybe this just applies to an Ally which is the case here."
This one has been answered by Vic.
Skill QuestionIt seems the section in the rules is best read as "Even if your character doesn’t have any of the skills listed for a check, you can still attempt the check..."
This is a very reasonable amendation, and matches what we intended by that sentence.
Even with even it can still be misinterpreted as only if you don't have a listed skill, in the context of choosing between even and only it is clear but as a standalone statement it is not.
I quoted have read Vic's post , all I am asking is :-
If you wish make a check with a skill you do not possess then your die will be a default of d4.
This statement is not linked to having any of the skills listed on the check.
If this is the case wouldn't the following be clearer :-
You may use a skill that isn’t listed on your character card only if another card gives your character that skill.
I appreciate MIke and Vic's reply's. The second sentence of the rule seems to suggest you can only use the skill if you have a Boon bestowing the skill. Which seems to be the question asked by the op.
So is the default d4 die dependent on having such a card?
Noted. We may clean this up. Thanks for the comments.
|
Without even or only it reads as said. I am really not sure if this is a common thing among rpg gamers that they seem to think it is ok to add words to change the meaning of a rule.
Sorry to quote just St@rm@n here, but I've seen this kind of comment a couple of times, and it's a bit offensive to make about somebody who enjoys a certain type of game.
Personally, I play RPG's. I play boardgames. I play miniatures. I play LARP. I play card games (collectible, pre-made decks, standard cards like bridge or hearts). I play party games.
Bottom line, I've run into varying rules interpretations in every one of the above. But the more variables you put into a game, the more likely it is that you're going to have to just resolve a dispute using your judgement. And this game already has hundreds of variables in it, due to the random interaction of so many unique cards. It would be nearly impossible, and an awfully boring read, to write rules to take into account every interaction between multiple cards in this game.
And really, as this is a co-operative game, any rules interpretation you make is only going to affect the challenge level you're facing at your table. Any rules variance is really only going to come into play when you play with somebody else who already plays the game elsewhere.
So let's not disparage other gamers, or attribute them with certain motives, just because they enjoy a type of game that you don't. Because you probably have no idea what the gaming experience really is of the other person who posted.
I am not being offensive in fact some of the comments aimed at me recently , I need lessons in grammar, obtuse , rules lawyer , I have taken as offensive. All because I did not understand the whole missing implied words.
I admit I have no Rpg gaming experience and the background to my thinking was that there is GM or DM to resolve interpretations. No offense was meant.
I have been involved as a player , developer and a fair share of rules proofing in all the other aspects of gaming you mention except Larping or party games. I am working with a couple of companies at the moment. I have seen some great rules and some abysmal rules. You can see me credited in everything from Combat Commander to Sergeants in Miniatures.
I can honestly say I have never come across the whole implied words that posters here seem to take as normal. I may have wrongly put this down to being a rpg practice. I can't see how "Without even or only it reads as said. I am really not sure if this is a common thing among rpg gamers that they seem to think it is ok to add words to change the meaning of a rule." is offensive but if you find it so then you seem to be saying that it is wrong otherwise it would not be offensive.
Also I am not asking for a ruling on every variation.
Just a couple of major rules the Playing a card section which Vic has just cleared up in his FAQ and the default die use which once cleared up should be quite straightforward.
I doubt if the issues I have had amount to more than a few sentences worth of changing , most of which Vic has agreed with needed clarifying.
I alos appreciate other gamers input and again I am used to this where it points to the rules to answer the questions. I am not so used to a number of different interpretations based on if you add this word here then the designer meant x. As Vic has posted it isn't always that simple. I really don't understand why if I don't agree then I must be wrong or obtuse or don't understand grammar.
I do see their point but often see others as well.
I believe until a game is played as the designer intended how can you understand the impact of "house rules" etc. Personally I don't enjoy making it up as I go along.
I am also used to the judgement being made by the games designers , play testing normally sorts out the ambiguities or as in this case the early days post release.
I only have seen a few real game changers most of which have been addressed and this one falls into that category.
I am not sure if you are saying I shouldn't ask for clarification or I should accept what other gamers say even if it still is not clear or I should work it out myself.
Noted. We may clean this up. Thanks for the comments.
Thanks Mike it will help a lot if you can clear it up as i am still unclear when you can use the default die.
I *think* I understand the question St@rm@n is asking, so I'll take a shot at it.
The rule is:
If your character doesn’t have any of the skills listed for a check, you can still attempt the check (unless you’re trying to recharge a card; see Recharge on page 15), but your die is a d4. You may use a skill that isn’t listed on your character card only if another card gives your character that skill.
So, when a card demands a Perception check, and you don't have Perception, you roll a d4. That's clear. What may not be clear is what happens if you have some other skill listed on the card (Diplomacy, say) but you want to use Perception. In theory you might do so if you had a Night Watch.
I don't see any reason to deny that possibility. So I believe the best approach is to read the sentence as "Even if you don't..." rather than "Only if you don't..." I haven't had a conversation about whether the wording should be adjusted to close off that possibility. But that's my take on it.
Mike
I *think* I understand the question St@rm@n is asking, so I'll take a shot at it.
The rule is:
If your character doesn’t have any of the skills listed for a check, you can still attempt the check (unless you’re trying to recharge a card; see Recharge on page 15), but your die is a d4. You may use a skill that isn’t listed on your character card only if another card gives your character that skill.So, when a card demands a Perception check, and you don't have Perception, you roll a d4. That's clear. What may not be clear is what happens if you have some other skill listed on the card (Diplomacy, say) but you want to use Perception. In theory you might do so if you had a Night Watch.
I don't see any reason to deny that possibility. So I believe the best approach is to read the sentence as "Even if you don't..." rather than "Only if you don't..." I haven't had a conversation about whether the wording should be adjusted to close off that possibility. But that's my take on it.
Mike
That was my question to a certain point.
From how it has been clarified The rule
If your character doesn’t have any of the skills listed for a check, you can still attempt the check (unless you’re trying to recharge a card; see Recharge on page 15), but your die is a d4.
Should be read "Your character may use a skill required for a check even if he doesn't possess it, you can still attempt the check (unless you’re trying to recharge a card; see Recharge on page 15), but your die is a d4.
I had originally thought it had meant you could only use a default die skill, if you didn't have a listed skill on your character card that was one of those required by the check.
now the 2nd sentence is muddying the waters.
You may use a skill that isn’t listed on your character card only if another card gives your character that skill.
Seems to imply that this is restricted and you can only use the default die of d4 when you have a boon that gives your character the skill you don't have.
Why else would this sentence be needed as the first sentence always lets you use a skill you don't have even when you have one you could use.
"only" is an instruction and if it is changed to even then why have the sentence unless my original undrrstanding of the first sentence was correct.
_______________________________________________________________________
I am also not clear on which sentence you are referring to in changing "only if you don't" to "even if you don't" neither of the two sentences have the phrase "only if you don't" in them.
I do hope this is not some other implied wording I should have imagined and inserted. The sentence starts with "If" the key restriction is "doesn't have" now the clarification has been to add Even in front of it. Saying I should have implied it is a bit of a stretch but i do accept the solution. (Hopefully this will be added to the FAQ)
If I go for for an allergy test and I am told "If the results don't show any of the signs listed here you may eat these foods" If I was going to imply anything before the if it would be Only and not Even. Granted both could be used but why have the test if even would be implied , I dont need it. So a simple you can eat any of these foods or in this case you may always use a d4 default die for a skill required for a check.
Ah, I see where the confusion is. That second sentence refers to things like the Ranged trait coming over from the Light Crossbow. But it seems to be too far-reaching. You can use the skill, but only as a d4 -- that is, not as a full Dexterity die "+0," for example.
OK, we'll put that on the FAQ stack. Till then, know that you're playing it right when you use a d4 for Perception even if you don't have Perception on your character card.
Thanks, Mike :)
So, the first sentence is the "Even if" part, and should be:
EVEN If your character doesn’t have any of the skills listed for a check, you can still attempt the check (unless you’re trying to recharge a card; see Recharge on page 15), but your die is a d4.
The second sentence "You may use a skill that isn’t listed on your character card only if another card gives your character that skill." should really be removed since it doesn't seem to help clarify anything at all and just confuses the first sentence! Perhaps replace it with an example instead, e.g. "Whenever you use a skill not printed on your character card that skill's base die is a d4. There are no implied connections to skills printed on your card, e.g. If RANGED is not printed on your card you roll 1d4 to test RANGED, not your DEX die."
Yeah, got it. We will address that after the next rules update discussion.
Thanks guys the second sentence is really an example makes much more sense.