Goblin Squad Member
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Actually, the more I think about the analogy, the more I like it.
For example, in basketball it is possible to distinguish between a foul for a legitimate reason, such as to stop an easy 3-point attempt, and a foul made for sheer vindictiveness. Both are treated the same by the rules, but one is identifiable as "toxic", the exact point some of us have been trying to make about non-consensual PVP.
I absolutely love it when an analogy proves itself valuable. Excellent job of extracting additional meaning with a very good point about "toxic" fouls.
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Goblin Squad Member
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All games have rules and structure. Some allow more freedom than others.
In the NFL, taunting another player can bring a 15-yard penalty. That's a fairly big consequence on a 100 yard field.
Imagine if taunting in chat channels earned a character's party a -15% penalty to their combat attributes. The party might become pretty invested in controlling that behavior.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I absolutely love it when an analogy proves itself valuable. Excellent job of extracting additional meaning with a very good point about "toxic" fouls.Actually, the more I think about the analogy, the more I like it.
For example, in basketball it is possible to distinguish between a foul for a legitimate reason, such as to stop an easy 3-point attempt, and a foul made for sheer vindictiveness. Both are treated the same by the rules, but one is identifiable as "toxic", the exact point some of us have been trying to make about non-consensual PVP.
Again, your talking about a game people play physically and in real life as opposed to a game in front of a computer depicting Dungeons and Dragons where your fake characters life is on the line always.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Funny, when I say it you ignored it Nihimon.When you presented your idea, the part that I liked was buried in the middle of a bunch of stuff I didn't like. When Sintaqx stated it, he led a paragraph with a sentence dedicated to only the part that I liked, so it was easy to pull it out and agree with it.
Ummm.... It was an enumerated point (6th of 6) and the final point made. That by its very nature can not make it "buried in the middle" of anything.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ummm.... It was an enumerated point (6th of 6) and the final point made. That by its very nature can not make it "buried in the middle" of anything.Funny, when I say it you ignored it Nihimon.When you presented your idea, the part that I liked was buried in the middle of a bunch of stuff I didn't like. When Sintaqx stated it, he led a paragraph with a sentence dedicated to only the part that I liked, so it was easy to pull it out and agree with it.
Here is your presentation of the idea. I have bolded what I don't like, and italicized what I do like.
6. When a player's character reaches -7500 Reputation a report is automatically generated, to be reviewed by a GW GM. While at this -7500 the character is tagged with a semi permanent flag "Suspect". This "Suspect" flag will fly for a minimum of 1 hour of game time, and until the -7500 is returned to -7499.
During the period that the "Suspect Flag", any flagged player can attack the "Suspect" with a double reputation bonus for(the Suspect gets zero), and no Alignment shift unless he/she chooses.
If after investigating the GM decides that the "Suspect" was griefing, then the "Suspect Flag" can be left in place for a 24 hour time period.
Does that make it easier for you to see how the part that I liked was buried in the middle of a bunch of stuff I didn't like?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here is your presentation of the idea. I have bolded what I don't like, and italicized what I do like.6. When a player's character reaches -7500 Reputation a report is automatically generated, to be reviewed by a GW GM. While at this -7500 the character is tagged with a semi permanent flag "Suspect". This "Suspect" flag will fly for a minimum of 1 hour of game time, and until the -7500 is returned to -7499.
During the period that the "Suspect Flag", any flagged player can attack the "Suspect" with a double reputation bonus for(the Suspect gets zero), and no Alignment shift unless he/she chooses.
If after investigating the GM decides that the "Suspect" was griefing, then the "Suspect Flag" can be left in place for a 24 hour time period.
*quote edited for clarity
The reasons I presented it the way I did in my dissertation were hopefully clear, though I didn't elaborate much on the reasoning behind the stuff I left out (most of the bolded bits above). Perhaps I should and a consensus on this particular point may be reached.
When a player reaches -7500 they get a PVP flag. Just because you are scraping bottom doesn't mean you can't still dig yourself a hole. People who reach this point either screwed up badly somewhere, are irredeemable, or need a swift kick in the pants to set them on a path of desired behavior. This flag should stay in place until such time as the character digs themselves out of the hole they are in. The amount of time this takes is entirely up to them, hence the -4000 level I set in the wall of text.
a report is automatically generated, to be reviewed by a GW GM. This I did not include for two reasons. First, if GW wants to monitor -75 folks, they should have to tools, or at the very least a query to do so. Automatic reports in cases like this are unnecessary. Second, not all -75 folks are going to need GM monitoring. Some may just toe the line, in which case it's a community issue rather than a GW issue.
"Suspect". This "Suspect" flag will fly for a minimum of 1 hour of game time, and until the -7500 is returned to -7499. The name of the flag is irrelevant at this point. The key points here are the threshold and the duration. As stated before, the threshold needs to be much higher than 1 point and the duration shouldn't be an arbitrary amount that can be waited out, otherwise the consequence is rather toothless.
During the period that the "Suspect Flag", any flagged player can attack the "Suspect" with a double reputation bonus for(the Suspect gets zero), and no Alignment shift unless he/she chooses. A double rep bonus sounds nice, but would be extremely exploitable. I'm perfectly fine with people flagged thusly being fair game for consequenceless PVP.
If after investigating the GM decides that the "Suspect" was griefing, then the "Suspect Flag" can be left in place for a 24 hour time period. This goes along with the other points. GW can elect to monitor griefing and -75 as they see fit. The flag shouldn't be something that can easily be arbitrarily assigned, if at all, and, as stated before, it should be effective until the character has participated in enough meaningful PVP (and/or attonement with his victims) to have it automatically removed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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UO had an interesting mechanic for going perma-red (the murderer flag status).
Basically, you could spend time in game not killing people to let your murder counts fall off. Once your 5 short term murder counts were gone (8 hours each) and you dropped below 5 Long Term murder counts (those took 40 hours each) you would become blue flagged again (meaning not a murderer, able to go to towns and whatnot.)
If you did the Red-Blue-Red swap too many times, you just became permanently flagged Red. It was a pretty harsh penalty, but I could see something like that being useful in PFO.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Another potential consequence could be the inability to join a party.
Maybe not mechanally unable, but there will very likely be players who don't group with low rep characters. A particularly visible threshold could serve as a guideline to most players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe not mechanally unable, but there will very likely be players who don't group with low rep characters. A particularly visible threshold could serve as a guideline to most players.
It might depend on whether a party can fly multiple long-term flags, like Champion and Outlaw. Individuals can't. GW hasn't explained how parties and flags will work.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Mentally I was kind of equating it to a -10 in EVE being unable to join a fleet and take advantage of things like Command Ship or T3 boosts, fleet broadcasts, watchlists, etc. Having been -10 myself a time or two (before FW and all its impact to standings), I find myself strangely OK with the idea.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But it also provides more incentive for people who aren't out to game it to keep their rep high; the kinds of people who aren't 'hardcore kill everyone' types, who maybe kill an unflagged person once or twice.
I mean, the point to the rep system is that people with very low rep are at a disadvantage, so I would think they want to put some actual mechanical benefits in to encourage high rep scores. I agree that it would further encourage people who want to play a low-rep style to find ways to game it, but they were probably going to do so already, y'know? I don't think the given penalties above (disabling other PvP flags and not joining parties) are going to drastically increase this behavior.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To go with reputation, should there be notoriety?
To complete what I was thinking, Xeen pointed out that he would be moved to seek a permanent PvP status if that were obtainable by negative reputation.
Why not provide a similar mechanism to reputation called notoriety while investing that achievement with devices to encourage game-beneficial activities that a Good aligned high rep character would not consider engaging in?
The high rep characters need a foil just like good is more meaningful contrasted with evil and lawful is more meaningful contrasted with chaos, and neutrality is more meaningful the more extremist the cardinal enthusiasts may get.
Why should reputation not also be more meaningful contrasted with notoriety?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Xeen pointed out that he would be moved to seek a permanent PvP status if that were obtainable by negative reputation.
Why not provide a similar mechanism to reputation called notoriety while investing that achievement with devices to encourage game-beneficial activities that a Good aligned high rep character would not consider engaging in?
Why not just turn on a long-term PvP flag and never turn it off? I expect Andius isn't the only one planning on doing that.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I think that Notoriety, as a stat that replaces reputation for characters who choose for it to, would be a good addition; a SAD that is accepted doesn't alter reputation, but boosts notoriety. Flying an outlaw flag provides a notoriety boost, but green hat killing reduces notoriety. Highly notorious characters would get benefits similar if not identical to those achieved by highly reputable characters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why not just turn on a long-term PvP flag and never turn it off? I expect Andius isn't the only one planning on doing that.Xeen pointed out that he would be moved to seek a permanent PvP status if that were obtainable by negative reputation.
Why not provide a similar mechanism to reputation called notoriety while investing that achievement with devices to encourage game-beneficial activities that a Good aligned high rep character would not consider engaging in?
I hope not. The idea is there are some people who want to keep their PvP exposure to a minimum, and some for whom it is the highlight of the game.
PvP flags separate those two categories. In my mind you shouldn't change your PvP flag more frequently than your underwear. You don't become a champion and hunt evil, then hang up your sword at the end of the day and become a peaceful little farmer who it would be a great crime deserving of full rep/alignment consequence to kill. You don't rob people as an outlaw then go to the tavern and become just any other patron.
At the end of the day, people still sing the songs and praises of the champions deeds or curse their name and plot revenge. As the outlaw counts the spoils their wanted poster still still hangs throughout the lands.
PvP flags aren't a garment you don and then discard when you're done with it. It's who your character is. It should be a long meaningful process to gain and remove, and you shouldn't enjoy it's full benefits unless you wear it for a very long time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hope not. The idea is there are some people who want to keep their PvP exposure to a minimum, and some for whom it is the highlight of the game.
PvP flags separate those two categories. In my mind you shouldn't change your PvP flag more frequently than your underwear. You don't become a champion and hunt evil, then hang up your sword at the end of the day and become a peaceful little farmer who it would be a great crime deserving of full rep/alignment consequence to kill. You don't rob people as an outlaw then go to the tavern and become just any other patron.
At the end of the day, people still sing the songs and praises of the champions deeds or curse their name and plot revenge. As the outlaw counts the spoils their wanted poster still still hangs throughout the lands.
PvP flags aren't a garment you don and then discard when you're done with it. It's who your character is. It should be a long meaningful process to gain and remove, and you shouldn't enjoy it's full benefits unless you wear it for a very long time.
I'll agree to this with the exception of the Assassin flag. I only plan on Having this during a job, and some time before the job to build up the benefits. If I'm not on a contract, then there is no need to have the flag on. Although I will probably be flying another flag to allow me to PvP.