Goblin Squad Member
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At Golgotha we are extending a hand of diplomacy to other settlements and charter companies. In this we would like to identify our possible trading/economic partners.
We are wanting to have a meeting of individuals in order to discuss the similarities and differences between our organization and others that wish to treat with us.
We would also like to state that we have opened enrollment to members that wish to be part of our established charter companies. In addition, any charter companies that fit within our alignment spectrum (LE, LN, and NE) are welcome to apply to be sponsored by Golgotha.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The UnNamed Company is also interested in supporting your settlement. Although we are more closely attuned to Chaotic Neutral, we do have members that are CE, NE, and LE.
I could see our company offering our services as Outlaws, to attack and raid your rival's harvesting / merchant industries. Feel free to PM me, if you would like to discuss future dealing in more detail or privately.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is a great beginning for building reputation between our factions, and in addition we are accepting inquiries at this time in order for other organizations to find out exactly what has changed and what we plan to implement within Golgotha. We will be rather open about some of our policies when asked, but some measure of secrecy will be upheld in relation to our leadership and membership until a later date. So feel free to ask questions.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm curious why you chose the name Golgotha. Would you care to talk about that?
[Edit] I'm aware of the historical significance of the name. I'm more curious about your decision to use it.
It was a long story and voting process, but I will be simple and blunt.
1: We wanted a name that subtly implied history/relevance
2: It also symbolizes our fall and eventual rebirth as this new organization
I would give away more, but part of the reason this name was chosen was because of the subtle clues it gave towards our organization.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Can't speak for them, but this is what I see in the name.
Translates: "Place of the skull" (original Hebrew: gulgoleth)
It was a place, one of many, where the tyrants of the long lived and glorious Roman empire executed justice with clear and authoritative brutality.
Also has sentimentality for some religious foke.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm curious to know how you feel about this post and how closely it aligns with your vision:
We need a LE settlement in the Spirit of Asmodeus, like the Cheliaxians. The advantage here is that it is a lawful that does not oppose good per se, but believes good is simply too naive to fully understand the consequences of chaos.
Before the gods allowed the souls to have choice, Asmodeus got along swimmingly with the other gods. The rift of ideologies arose as more and more insisted on allowing souls to choose where to go after death.
And even with the rift, Asmodeus ultimately chose to follow the path of patience.
From the Book of the Damned Vol 1 - Princes of Darkness: (this takes place after Asmodeus slew his twin brother for introducing the idea of free will among mortals to the rest of the gods)
Good settlements need not fear a truly Asmodean LE settlement. Such a settlement would happily help them in crushing chaotic enemies. Just don't expect to like their methods.It was Sarenrae who discovered the wounded and brooding Asmodeus, and in that moment of fury the goddess discovered something beyond order and chaos—her own sense of right and wrong. Sarenrae leveled her burning sword at the murderer, demanding he yield. With a blink, Asmodeus awoke and quenched the goddess’s blade, taking her by the throat. Looking deep within her, he saw fear, and insignificance, and weakness, but also the truth of the age. And as the goddess prepared to join her master, she was shocked to feel Asmodeus release and address her.
“Your war is won, Pale Orphan. I leave all of this to you and your ilk. But you will see me again, for I alone remain to guard the old truths. And I will wait for the age when all you have wrought and all for which you have fought turns to sweep you away. Then all of you will see what I have lost, and what I will make mine again.”
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Goblin Squad Member
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Good settlements need not fear a truly Asmodean LE settlement. Such a settlement would happily help them in crushing chaotic enemies. Just don't expect to like their methods.
Message between the lines, "I am afraid of you, please attack someone else."
The UnNamed Company is made up if CN Bandits and LE Assassins. I would like to work with your settlement in aiding it with our commerce, our bandits and assassination services and any other contractual support that you may require. In exchange we ask that our Assassins find a place to train and our bandits a place to spend our coin on all forms if debauchery.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Bluddwolf I read that bit from Andius a couple times; it seemed odd. That bit you quoted as Andius is actually a Blaeringr quote.
The shading is a bit confusing with multiple quotes, thank you for ther prompt pointing that out (56 minutes, so I had 4 minutes left to fix).
My sincerest apology to Andius for attributing the quote to him.
My take on what sentiment is being made by the quote is unchanged. I'm not sure if that comes from the Lore of PF RPG. It seems that PF RPG has taken Asmodeus and from AD&D and watered him down a bit.
I think of LE as being Sauron-esque, and not someone who would tolerate good beyond the moment of their usefulness.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not sure if that comes from the Lore of PF RPG.
From the Book of the Damned Vol 1 - Princes of Darkness:
Does that clear it up?
My take on what sentiment is being made by the quote is unchanged.
In what sense does a LE person describing Asmodean LE equate to "I am afraid of you, please attack someone else."? Is that really the sentiment you think "is being made" when I made that statement?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think of LE as being Sauron-esque, and not someone who would tolerate good beyond the moment of their usefulness.
Agreed. Well, sort of. I'd expect a well played LE to mouth all sorts of platitudes to the good types about we're all in this together and the communists, er, the chaotics are the real threat. They'll tolerate the goods as long as the goods don't raise a fuss and don't pose a threat. They'll happily accept 'good' vassals under those conditions.
They'll likely mouth similar platitudes to CNs and other LEs, under the same conditions. Just saying. ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think of LE as being Sauron-esque, and not someone who would tolerate good beyond the moment of their usefulness.Agreed. Well, sort of. I'd expect a well played LE to mouth all sorts of platitudes to the good types about we're all in this together and the communists, er, the chaotics are the real threat. They'll tolerate the goods as long as the goods don't raise a fuss and don't pose a threat. They'll happily accept 'good' vassals under those conditions.
They'll likely mouth similar platitudes to CNs and other LEs, under the same conditions. Just saying. ;)
.... And tolerate / use chaotic vassals for pragmatic purposes. Hobgoblins using Goblins as "attack dogs", or better yet.... Anthony Hoskins, using Jet Li in "Unleashed".
I'm guessing Asmodeus has changed in the PF RPG lore then. I'm not familiar with the book Blaeringr is quoting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In D&D lore, Asmodeus rose from being a devil and stole his godhood.
In PF lore he was one of the very first gods and eventually founded Hell and created devilkind. He is also responsible for binding Rovagug.
The title given to LE is "tyrant". In both D&D and PF the pinnacle of LE is tyranny, and tyranny has historically always been far more opposed to chaos than to good.
Regarding Sauron, lawful evil implies adherence to some form of principles and Sauron never seemed to have any. And Sauron was just a shadow of his fallen master, Morgoth. According to the Silmarillion, Morgoth's main motivations were really just trying to mess up the work of Illuvatar. He had no goals or plans to reform said work into something that fit his own vision, just break down the order of Illuvatar's great masterpiece. Both in the abstract and in the manifest forms of that process though, Morgoth kept meeting with frustration as Illuvatar found subtle and gentle ways to manipulate Morgoth's disruption back into harmonious order.
That is definitely describing a CE villian, not LE. The orcs and goblins followed Sauron out of fear, not out of a sense of purpose. When Sauron fell, no ideology nor purpose remained to bind them together and they turned on each other. Chaos.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And here's a link the the book I quoted: Pathfinder Chronicles: Book of the Damned—Volume 1: Princes of Darkness (PFRPG)
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Goblin Squad Member
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By the way, slightly off topic but did you know "Evil" was the most vocal of the alignments on the message-boards?
Why just good-aligned? Because I want to give the less vocal majority a chance to get the word about themselves / their groups out there, and there aren't that many highly vocal good aligned leaders out there.
I didn't and I'm having trouble locating this majority for I wish to have words.
On the same note:
While I agree Sauron was chaotic in essence, I disagree to how this topic is being pushed. Alignments do dictate courses of actions but so too does diplomacy.
Bluddwolf brings forward a good, strong comment. It is not unlike LE to utilize CE in the same sense that LE will utilize LG. Tyrants tend to have dealings in all manners of society in order to keep their status-quo that allow law to exist and power to be maintained.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And here we see why the 9 grid alignment system is inherently flawed. Characters with any depth cannot be slotted into one of 9 different holes. Sauron is both lawful and chaotic. Technically that should make him neutral, but that is never the actual case. It's different for game characters, since players tend to be interested in playing out particular roles, but for anything else it is folly to try and grab examples from fiction.
But on topic, I believe that you have already heard from a representative of Maelstrom Company. I hope that any dealings we have with Golgotha are fruitful.
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Goblin Squad Member
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From my observation the majority of regular posters on this board are from neutral groups. We rarely hear from groups such as:
The Golden Flask
Keepers of The Circle
Knights of The Crusader Road
Or really anyone in the community other than myself, Harad Navar, and apparently Urman.(Didn't realize he was planning to lead a good-aligned group.)
I agree, evil groups have few representatives vocally active on these boards other than UNC and sometimes Blaeringr. I welcome you to copy the template I created and start a topic for evil groups if you have an interest in doing so. It would be more appropriate for a leader in the evil community to do so than me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm sure that those of less than good alignment will find their way to this thread. I apologize if I misconstrued your thread, but I definitely agree that there is a lack of presence from the non-neutral community. I was also under the impression that the UNC was neutral. I have been unable to establish relations with other similar aligned groups.
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Goblin Squad Member
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From my observation the majority of regular posters on this board are from neutral groups. We rarely hear from groups such as:
The Golden Flask
Keepers of The Circle
Knights of The Crusader RoadOr really anyone in the community other than myself, Harad Navar, and apparently Urman.(Didn't realize he was planning to lead a good-aligned group.)
I agree, evil groups have few representatives vocally active on these boards other than UNC and sometimes Blaeringr. I welcome you to copy the template I created and start a topic for evil groups if you have an interest in doing so. It would be more appropriate for a leader in the evil community to do so than me.
UNC for the record is not an evil group, it is most closely related to Chaotic Neutral. Yes we do have some members that are CE, LE, LN and perhaps a couple who may be CG.
Yes, we may be aggressive in expressing our views. We will be extremely aggressive in our revenge. We may love combat (pvp) and use ganking tactics whenever possible. But, none of these I would consider evil.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was speaking in terms of the alignment I percieve them as rather than their stated alignment. To me CN is like Han Solo or Malcolm Reynolds before they went CG. "I'll carry out illegal activities against these tyrants, but I expect to be paid well." Killing people you couldn't normally kill without going evil because they won't give you their money is pretty clearly evil. Shouldn't hurt your reputation, but it's evil.
Anyway I know a lot of people will disagree with that stance and I'm not really interested in arguing it, that's just why I personally consider them to be CE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was speaking in terms of the alignment I percieve them as rather than their stated alignment. To me CN is like Han Solo or Malcolm Reynolds before they went CG. "I'll carry out illegal activities against these tyrants, but I expect to be paid well." Killing people you couldn't normally kill without going evil because they won't give you their money is pretty clearly evil. Shouldn't hurt your reputation, but it's evil.
Anyway I know a lot of people will disagree with that stance and I'm not really interested in arguing it, that's just why I personally consider them to be CE.
This may be true and you are entitled to your belief. It is actually quite the same view I have of your stances, which I don't think remotely resembles NG, but are more so LN with intermittent shades of LE and CG thrown in.
As Morbis accurately stated, here lies the flaw of the Alignment System. Player characters are too complex to fall within that limiting system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think our Alignments will be revealed in-game. What we plan right now is based on an incomplete understanding.
The Seventh Veil chose Neutral as our Alignment for the simple reason that Sivanah is Neutral. I don't think we really have any expectations of the behavior we'll have to comply with in order to remain Neutral, or even whether we'll want to.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think our Alignments will be revealed in-game. What we plan right now is based on an incomplete understanding.
The Seventh Veil chose Neutral as our Alignment for the simple reason that Sivanah is Neutral. I don't think we really have any expectations of the behavior we'll have to comply with in order to remain Neutral, or even whether we'll want to.
Doesn't that meet the definition of a system that is unneeded then?
If it is almost universally, misapplied, inadequate, too simplistic and not likely to be thought about much less followed... Then why program for it?
We have Reputation and now Influence. Alignment should be a Social / RP element, not a game mechanic. But, don't get me wrong, I'm not concerned about it for my character's sake. I just think the resources could be spent on other systems, more important.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Doesn't that meet the definition of a system that is unneeded then?
Not at all.
If it is almost universally, misapplied, inadequate, too simplistic and not likely to be thought about much less followed...
I don't believe it is or will be misapplied. As for whether it's inadequate or too simplistic, that can only be determined in the context of its purpose. And I have every reason to expect it will actually be thought about quite a bit by everyone who plays.
Then why program for it?
That's been clearly explained a number of times by Ryan. It's a way to avoid the toxic grief-play that is rampant in most Open World PvP games.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's been clearly explained a number of times by Ryan. It's a way to avoid the toxic grief-play that is rampant in most Open World PvP games.
I don't see the correlation between alignment and toxic grief play. As a few posters suggested, you can grief in Global Chat or with certain emotes, neither of which will impact alignment or even reputation.
Griefers won't care about their alignment at all. They will grief until their character is useless due to reputation and then wipe or switch to an alt, and grief with second character, until the first recovers.
I believe the graatest tool they have for anti griefing is the warden response in the NPC zone. It should not even be wardens, but lightning bolts from the heavens, and any violator is struck down dead instantly, with all equipments ( threaded included) being completely destroyed.
Respawn griefing could be handled like it was in Fallen Earth. When you respawn, you are immune to PvP and you yourself an not flag for PvP for two minutes.
Corpse camping is virtually useless because the victim has little reason to return to their corpse. They have all if their threaded gear, and should assume if anything of value not threaded was looted.
There are other tools that can be or will be in place other than alignment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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They have all if their threaded gear, and should assume if anything of value not threaded was looted.
You keep saying this, but my experience from Darkfall doesn't bear this out at all. I've had money taken, and essences, but that's about it. There's a world of difference beween taking everything when you have a nice big empty cargo hold in EvE, and your 350kg DF weight allowance. Gankers are fussy in what they take.
We'll just have to wait and see which model of behaviour becomes prevalent in PfO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not to interrupt such a potent conversion, but I feel this thread is being led astray. A clarification, if I may, would be that this thread is intended for individuals or organizations to announce themselves to Golgotha or to seek information pertaining to Golgotha. I'm positive there are many alignment threads throughout these boards in which to move this discussion.
Groups or individuals recognized by Golgotha will be considered at a minimum neutral with our faction, regardless of alignment or reputation. This offer will extend until our diplomatic channels are fulfilled within the eyes of the Viscounts.
We were planning on sending a few individuals into the PFOfan teamspeak later this afternoon (Central) in order to communicate or treat with other organizations.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Deacon Wulf, I am frequently on the PFOFan TeamSpeak server while playing Darkfall. If you see me down in the Darkfall channel, please feel free to join me there, or ask me to join you in the lobby. As I've said, The Seventh Veil has a long history of supporting other organizations without regard for their Alignment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thank you Nihimon
At this time the citizens of Golgotha are addressing of how to set about policy in advance for a smooth transition into EE. We have determined to open this to the public for additional input. At a later date we will release our starting policies and how much emphasis we will begin with each area and a rough calendar of how we will progress through EE and the beginning of OE. This information may be crucial for suggested treaties or trade. If you would like additional information you may contact us at:
PFSLordRegent@gmail.com
PFSCrimsonguard@gmail.com
We are defining resources as such:
Time
Funding
Personnel
Equipment
We are also defining Investments as such:
Military - Projection/Security
Infrastructure - Settlement/Hex improvement
Production - Crafts/Harvesting
Trade - Selling/Acquiring Goods
Expansion - Diplomacy/Exploration/Acquisition
Education - Skill training/Player training
We believe that through defining the amount of resources allotted to each investment will help us minimize waste. Your opinions or suggestions are welcome.