This is the version we use in our home games:
School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 8; Domain construct 8
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (mercury, gum arabic, and smoke, plus see text)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one corporeal non-gaseous creature, or one non-magical solid object of up to 100 cu. ft./level
Duration see text
Saving Throw Fortitude negates (object); see text; Spell Resistance yes (object)
This spell has five versions: creature into creature, object into object, creature into object, object into creature, and duplicate transmutation. The caster may choose which version to use when casting the spell and does not need to prepare a specific version in advance (for those casters that prepare spells). This spell has no effect on incorporeal creatures or creatures in gaseous form, nor does it affect gaseous objects such as a cloudkill effect. This spell cannot create an object that is not stable at room temperature, such as ice or magma.
Creature into creature: This version of the spell turns a corporeal, nongaseous creature into another kind of living creature, as per alter self, beast shape IV, elemental body IV, form of the dragon III, plant shape III, giant shape II, monstrous physique IV, or vermin shape II. You must have a caster level of 17th or higher to turn a creature into a Huge dragon or Huge giant. The duration of the effect depends on the minimum level of the spell necessary to assume the chosen form: 1 week/level for 2nd, 1 day/level for 3rd, 1 hour/level for 4th, 10 minutes/level for 5th, 1 minute/level for 6th, 1 round/level for 7th, and 1 round/4 levels for 8th. Even if a form is accessible by a lower-level version of a spell, the target gains the benefits of the highest-level spell in the series, e.g. a character assuming the form of a Medium animal would gain any special abilities from the form as if it had cast beast shape IV (i.e. blindsense 60 feet), but would last 1 day/level.
This version of the spell can be rendered permanent by adding 500 gp of alchemical quicksilver and a variable amount of diamond dust as additional material components. The cost of the diamond dust is equal to the Hit Dice of the target times the spell's caster level times the Hit Dice of the intended form times 10 gp for 2nd-level spell equivalent effects. A 3rd-level effect costs twice as much, a 4th level effect four times as much, a 5th level effect eight times as much, a 6th level effect sixteen times as much, a 7th level effect thirty-two times as much, and an 8th-level effect sixty-four times as much. Purely cosmetic changes achievable via vocal alteration and disguise self can be made permanent without the expenditure of diamond dust.
Object into object: This use of the spell can turn any unattended nonmagical solid object into another solid object of roughly equal or lesser size and mass. Complex objects require a successful Craft check to make; otherwise they appear normal but inexplicably do not function. This version of the spell lasts just as long as a major creation spell used to create the new object would, unless alchemical quicksilver equal in value to two-thirds of the transformed object’s new market price are used as an additional material component, in which case this spell becomes permanent.
Creature into object: You transform a corporeal, nongaseous creature (whether living or not) into any solid object of equal or lesser size. Complex objects require a successful Craft check to make; if the check fails, the creature cannot be used for its intended purpose but does not appear any different from an ordinary object of the same kind. Materials that can go into the object are stone, ceramics, glass, cloth, rope, wood, leather, ivory, amber, plant and animal products, semi-precious minerals such as quartz and malachite, and non-precious metals and alloys such as brass, bronze, pewter, pig iron, and steel. Unless otherwise noted, the creature retains all of its statistics, including hit points, saving throws, natural armor bonuses, and damage reduction. The creature gains bonus hit points equal to the full normal hit point total of the form it assumes, and can benefit from both its hardness and damage reduction. While transformed, the creature is immune to mind-affecting effects and any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless that effect is harmless or also works on objects. It takes half damage from most energy attacks and quarter damage from cold (just like a normal object). It can save against effects using its own saving throw bonuses even if it is unattended. Effects like lighten object and shrink item work on transmuted creatures, but end immediately if the polymorph effect is dispelled. Treat the transmuted creature as a crystalline creature for adjudicating effects such as shatter. The transmuted creature is unconscious and unaware of its surroundings. The creature has a break DC equal to its CMD (calculated with its new size modifier and with a Strength bonus equal to its hardness). Breaking the object deals 10d6 points of damage to the creature and ends the spell. Dealing damage equal to or greater than the full normal hit point total of the assumed object, or reducing the target to 0 hp or fewer, also immediately ends the spell. Otherwise, this version of the spell lasts 1 round per level, unless an amount of alchemical quicksilver equal in value to the object's market price and diamond dust valued at 500 gp per HD of the target creature are used as additional material components, in which case the spell is permanent.
Object into creature: You turn any unattended nonmagical solid object into a living creature of roughly equal size and weight. The creature can be any animal, magical beast, humanoid, or monstrous humanoid that could be summoned with a summon nature’s ally VII spell. The creature is initially friendly toward you, but you have no special empathic connection with it. The creature is treated like a normal creature of its kind, but reverts to its true form while in an antimagic zone or if the polymorph any object is dispelled. This version of the spell lasts for 1 minute per caster level.
Duplicate transmutation: This version of polymorph any object allows you to duplicate the effects of baleful polymorph, transmute mud to rock, transmute rock to mud, flesh to stone, stone to flesh, transmute metal to wood, stone shape, wood shape, snow shape, enlarge person, reduce person, animal growth, youthful appearance, pup shape, sculpt simulacrum, sculpt corpse, decompose corpse, restore corpse, masterwork transformation, fleshcurdle, aboleth's lung, carry companion, vocal alteration, disfiguring touch, excruciating deformation, or true form. These function as the spell in question, but use polymorph any object's spell level for calculating DCs and similar purposes. This spell is considered a transmutation effect even when duplicating sculpt corpse, decompose corpse, restore corpse, or true form. Duplicated spells with a range of touch gain a range of close and do not require an attack roll. Expensive material components and descriptors are unchanged (e.g. duplicating masterwork transformation requires expensive magical reagents, and a good cleric with the construct domain could not duplicate excruciating deformation, a spell with the evil descriptor).
I'll be honest and admit that if that were an original spell submission it would be too complex to ever get approved. Paring it down some is a necessity.
The creature-into-creature version is relatively straightforward. The target can become pretty much anything, but the more powerful forms have a pretty fleeting duration, whereas in the old days turning the fighter into a troll was permanent until you needed to head into town, when you could dismiss the spell.
You can still use PAO to create permanent transformations, but the cost quickly becomes prohibitive for more powerful effects. Perma-troll now costs over a million gold.
Object-into-object was also pretty simple. It's like major creation meets the ethereal version of teleport object.
Object-into-creature was solved by limiting the pool of creatures to draw from. I'm not sure I like the particular way it was done, though.
Creature into object is the sore spot. I'm still not sure I got it right. Thoughts and criticisms would be appreciated.
Let's brainstorm! Or at least muse and/or mull.
I suggest using the spell as in the book.
Hmm. I was expecting a bit more interest than that.
Let's brainstorm! Or at least muse and/or mull.
It's hard to brainstorm or criticize without knowing your perceived problem with the original spell. Then you can tell us how you did (or plan to) fixed the perceived issue, and then proposed a final version of the corrected spell.
With the two first steps missing, its hard to criticize your fix.
Well, the duration factor mechanic is just too wonky. When using it as a buff spell, it's very difficult to get a factor of less than 5, which lasts for a day's worth of encounters. So duration is an issue.
With the object-into-creature function, there doesn't seem to be any limit at all on what you can create. True, a great wyrm gold dragon with 10 Str, Dex, & Con and 5 Int, Wis, & Cha is pretty hamstrung (loses 9 from breath weapon DC, and 16 from melee attack bonus, and no spellcasting), but it still has the 1/week miracle spell-like ability and is easily competitive with many summoning options available, given its defensive powers and enormous size.
In fact, the pebble-into-creature has the potential to be just as good as, if not superior to, any summon effect the players could achieve at the equivalent level.
Now on to creature-into-object.
Since it is the only polymorph spell in the CRB that can turn creatures into objects, the "functions as greater polymorph" clause isn't enough to spell out which statistics are kept and which are lost if you turn a creature into a stick. Could a balor-twig just teleport away and wait for the spell to expire? Do they get a Will save to remain intelligent and aware, like baleful polymorph, or not? Does it use its normal DR, or does it use the item's hardness? Can you make a Strength check to break this balor-twig? If you do, does it automatically die, take 10 damage per caster level, or something else entirely?
And for object-into-object, the combination of duration factor and "cannot create materials of great intrinsic value" seemed kludgey, especially when a spell three levels lower could make valuable objects appear from nowhere. I simply made it function like major creation, with the option of permanency if you spend enough gold.
So, the problems are:
Easily-gamed and open-ended duration system.
Extremely abuse-prone instafodder function that obviates the need for many summoning effects.
Very unclear rules when the target form is an object.
Hmm. I was expecting a bit more interest than that.
I'm not sure why.
This thread seems almost a type specimen of two ideas I consider really bad.
1) Casters can do something effective. They can cast spells that accomplish something useful and potentially fight ending. This must be stopped!
2) The book is not infinitely long. I don't know how to handle an edge case in the rules. I demand that random strangers on the Internet should advice me on what would make the game the most fun for the players that I see every week!
Hmm. I was expecting a bit more interest than that.I'm not sure why.
This thread seems almost a type specimen of two ideas I consider really bad.
1) Casters can do something effective. They can cast spells that accomplish something useful and potentially fight ending. This must be stopped!
2) The book is not infinitely long. I don't know how to handle an edge case in the rules. I demand that random strangers on the Internet should advice me on what would make the game the most fun for the players that I see every week!
Thank you for your input. It is exactly what this thread needed, and I will take it under advisement.
It's basically people saying the spells doesn't need fixed and relies on GM to call things.
An aspect common to many high level spells.
Your GM tailors the spell to your group and campaign all within the rules and requiring no house rules.
Saying the spell needs fixed is wrong. Now if you want to just homebrew up a spell with more defined mechanics, then don't ask people how to fix things.
Now if you want to just homebrew up a spell with more defined mechanics, then don't ask people how to fix things.
Wait, are you saying nobody would critique a fix?
Wait, are you saying nobody would critique a fix?
I have. I've pointed out that the original wasn't broken, and that the "fix" makes matters worse.
Now if you want to just homebrew up a spell with more defined mechanics, then don't ask people how to fix things.Wait, are you saying nobody would critique a fix?
Then half of your responses will be why the spell doesn't need to be fixed.
Player DM cooperation.
Well, you've essentially gutted a large part of the original's powers.
It's essentially useless as a direct offensive spell at that level - without a exceedingly expensive material component, it wears off if used offensively, and the maximum you can do to a creature turned into an object is give it the broken condition, thereby breaking the spell for only 10d6 pts of dmg (avg 35). Which for a single target spell at 8th level, sucks beans... It used to be a decent save or die effect.
As an indirect spell you can still create huge amounts of gunpowder - plant and animal products - and set them off, a classical abuse. Another point is alchemical substances - and will require lot of fudging by the gm regarding what you can produce from plant and animal products plus semi-precious minerals... It's also much more potent in underwater environment - you can still target the water surrounding someone, if not the air.
It still breaks the economy. You can sell Ivory and Amber in the kind of volumes that PAO will create for LOTS and LOTS...A 3hd bison turned into amber will be worth a lot more than 1500gp.
creation of critters and buffing of friends have been beaten with a nerf bat as well...
So yeah, you may have gone a bit overboard with the nerf bat, and you still didn't kill a bunch of abuses...
This is what I got when I re-wrote PAO
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kfwi?Please-Help-Clarity-on-Polymorph-Any-Obje ct#20
This was not an attempt at balancing the spell, just fixing the mechanical inconsistencies. The thread itself never really came to a conclusion, but it is a pretty good discussion of the problems with PAO.
TL,DR
Yeah you've beaten it with a nerf bat pretty good. To the point where Sorcerers don't pick it anymore. That may be a bit much... Especially because the corner cases still exist.
Yeah, the creature-into-object version still doesn't sit well with me. I'd like it to have the ability to take something out of the fight, but not instantly kill them (the way the standard BBEG-into-a-twig, then break the twig tactic works).
Perhaps akin to baleful polymorph, but with no Will save to retain mental powers? It would be weird for a stick to have over 100 hit points, but kind of funny, too.
Another idea I had for creating creatures that I kind of abandoned due to complexity was to combine animate objects with greater polymorph, layering the intended form's bonuses over the animated object's base stats, with minimum 5 for mental abilities, 10 Constitution, and the traits of the assumed creature type rather than construct traits.
And the objects should probably have full market price as the component, rather than 2/3rds.