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Dragon Heralds, the new kobold bard archetype, gives up fascinate and countersong for a really cool sanctuary type ability. However, they keep suggestion and mass suggestion. The problem? In order to use suggestion and mass suggestion, you have to fascinate the enemy first. This doesnt work at all. So, can they use suggestions and the mass version WITHOUT fascinating them? Or do you think the developers intended for them to lose counter-song and distraction and not fascinate? It simply strikes me as silly that they have two songs they cant even use, obviously a mistake. Thoughts?
Dragon Heralds, the new kobold bard archetype, gives up fascinate and countersong for a really cool sanctuary type ability. However, they keep suggestion and mass suggestion. The problem? In order to use suggestion and mass suggestion, you have to fascinate the enemy first. This doesnt work at all. So, can they use suggestions and the mass version WITHOUT fascinating them? Or do you think the developers intended for them to lose counter-song and distraction and not fascinate? It simply strikes me as silly that they have two songs they cant even use, obviously a mistake. Thoughts?
So you can combine them another archetype:
example like Dirge Bard, Songhealer, Celebrity, Demagogue (which does trade out suggestion/Mass), and Archvist ((which does trade out suggestion/Mass)These are all the legal archetypes and two: Demagogue and Archivist need you to not trade suggestion.
There are also spells that allow you to fascinate people that would work with suggestion and mass suggestion.
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Dragon Heralds, the new kobold bard archetype, gives up fascinate and countersong for a really cool sanctuary type ability. However, they keep suggestion and mass suggestion. The problem? In order to use suggestion and mass suggestion, you have to fascinate the enemy first. This doesnt work at all. So, can they use suggestions and the mass version WITHOUT fascinating them? Or do you think the developers intended for them to lose counter-song and distraction and not fascinate? It simply strikes me as silly that they have two songs they cant even use, obviously a mistake. Thoughts?So you can combine them another archetype:
example like Dirge Bard, Songhealer, Celebrity, Demagogue (which does trade out suggestion/Mass), and Archvist ((which does trade out suggestion/Mass)
These are all the legal archetypes and two: Demagogue and Archivist need you to not trade suggestion.
Starbuck: Except, all of those archetypes give up abilities the dragon herald also gives up, so they do not work. THe ONLY one is song healer, and that doesnt give up suggestion or mass suggestion anyway, so while it is compatible, it doesnt address my concern at all.
Odraude: sadly, that wont work either. It states in fascinate...
Suggestion (Sp): A bard of 6th level or higher can use his performance to make a suggestion (as per the spell) to a creature that he has already fascinated (see above). Using this ability does not disrupt the fascinate effect, but it does require a standard action to activate (in addition to the free action to continue the fascinate effect). A bard can use this ability more than once against an individual creature during an individual performance.
The "See above" indicates that you must fascinate them with the fascinate bardic performance ability, not via other means. Rendering that suggestions not usable by RAW.
So still, it appears to be completely broken and useless, mechanically, which is almost certainly NOT the developers intent.
I think the see above was to show an example of fascination to use suggestion with. In any case, I've never met a GM (PFS and homebrew) that didn't allow you to use suggestion with, say, Rainbow Pattern.
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Alright, let's go ahead and assume that what you're saying is correct, it still seems very VERY odd. EVERY other archetype that gives up fascinate, also gives up suggestion and mass suggestion. Making Dragon herald an anomaly that to me does not make any sense.
ANd I do not think you are right, if you read the entire suggestion performance..
Suggestion (Sp): A bard of 6th level or higher can use his performance to make a suggestion (as per the spell) to a creature that he has already fascinated (see above). Using this ability does not disrupt the fascinate effect, but it does require a standard action to activate (in addition to the free action to continue the fascinate effect).
It mentions using the free action to continue the fascinate effect from your bardic performance. I strongly suspect you can only use your suggestion after the bardic fascinate.
Hey! I'm also looking an answer for this.
This isn't the first case of something like this happening. And since it is in a softcover supplement, it likely will not get an errata or an update, unfortunately.
Also, despite the avatar, I am not OP. Just to avoid that confusion.