First, before you people say it is impossible or ridiculous and other stuff like that I'd like to say that while your opinion is appreciated it is not my intention to discuss lore and such things but I will leave a bit of information here before I move on to the main subject of the topic.
1st point - I'm trying to make a character based on myself, and I do pratice martial arts kicks with stiletto heels as seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgV5JF839ks
There is even a spinning kick in this one and there are faster kicks in other videos in my channel, and I can do catwheels (but I don't have it in video)
2nd point - Paizo official art show high heels so it fits pathfinder lore as seen here https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTVNDDU_rW0kePldECdhrJ gPFQMFqn8GaLqctMySXiz7sTepIgBqw
It is an NPC called Lavender
Well you CAN discuss this subject if you want but it would really just be way off the topic
Now I can properly talk about the topic original purpose
I made some custom rules to implement Stiletto Heels weapon in combat, made one very complex version wich I discarded because it fitted other systems better and made a second version more like d20, more combat oriented with less details but I'm still not convinced it is the best it can be done so I'd like you to review the rules I made and make suggestion to improve them or even a complete different set of rules. The point is that I want it to be fair but it doesn't need to be balanced since it is for my use only and it is not like people are going to use it to abuse these rules to have weapons while having also the hands free for any action they could perform
So here are the rules:
The weapon:
Stiletto Heels - Close (or Monk)
Damage: 1d4, piercing, 18~20, x2
Special: Speed -15ft while on ground, -10 if small, tiny suffers no penalty. While on ground AC dodge bonus (including DEX) is negated (like flat-footed) and DEX bonus is reduced by 4. While on ground and you try to attack with kicks or you try to stand (from sitting or lying down) you have to make an acrobatics test DC 15 or fall.
Feats associated:
Stiletto Heels Mobility - Req: Dex 14
Benefits: Stiletto Heels speed penalty for movement is -5 for medium or bigger and nullified for small. You have no AC penalty and doesn't need acrobatics tests for attacking or getting up.
Stiletto Heels Style (Style) - Req: Stiletto Heels Mobility, Dex 15, Acrobatics 3
Benefits: You can use 1.5x STR bonus for the first attack of your turn. You have no penalty for ground speed with stiletto heels. You have +2 saves against paralyzis, exaustion or fatigue
Stiletto Heels Mastery - Req: Stileeto Heels Style, Acrobatics 5, Dex 15
All your attacks with Stileeto Heels use 1.5x STR bonus
You have +4 competence bonus to confirm critical threads
Stiletto Heels Spear - Req: Stiletto Heels Mastery, Dex 15, Acrobatics 8
If you jump as part of a charge your Stiletto Heels attacks will do 2x the damage. If you prepare an attack against an opponent who is charging you have +2 dodge bonus to CA, if the enemy's attack misses your attack causes 2x damage, if the enemy hits you, you miss the attack
And thats it.
PS.: There is nothing about sex, sexy, sexyness, fetish, or any other thing like that, it is all about combat and pathfinder rules ok? I'm kind of tired of people asking me "kick me in the balls" and stuff like that, so please, don't go that way or any other way like this.
Why are movement speed penalties different for different creature sizes? That's not the way things normally work. Also, why a flat penalty instead of one scaling with movement speed?
What about wearing stilettos causes a character to gain a save bonus against paralysis, exhaustion, or fatigue?
Why use completely different mechanics for stilettos than for every other weapon in the game? I'd just make them an exotic weapon that does d4 (one die size higher than unarmed) and requires no hands to attack. Sure, you can add on an additional penalty for wearing them without the proficiency - either denying dex or the -4 dex, but not both.
Why wouldn't they just be a cestus for your foot? I think that'd be a lot easier.
Or maybe a bladed boot that can't be retracted.
mplindustries wrote:
Or maybe a bladed boot that can't be retracted.
This seems like the simplest solution.
If you want to use your Monk damage, just take Snake style, and explain that the way you do Piercing damage with Unarmed Strikes is from heels.
I feel compelled to mention that you are seriously robbing your kicks of power by not having your back heel planted. Try it while making contact with a bag. Then try it without the heels. You'll see what I mean.
Raoni Luna wrote:
Stiletto Heels - Close (or Monk)
Damage: 1d4, piercing, 18~20, x2
Special: Speed -15ft while on ground, -10 if small, tiny suffers no penalty. While on ground AC dodge bonus (including DEX) is negated (like flat-footed) and DEX bonus is reduced by 4. While on ground and you try to attack with kicks or you try to stand...
There's no reason for these to have a better critical threat range than a dagger (19-20), which is what they fundamentally are; daggers strapped to the heel - even smaller than most daggers, and certainly no pointy-er, with no special curved shape like a Kukri for extra slashiness. You might want to go with 20/x3, similar to an arrow if you're picturing a sharpened heel spike rather than a knife-heel.
Don't negate Dodge bonuses or reduce base speed or DEX bonuses. Plenty of fighting is done on the balls of the feet, not the heels. You might apply a MAX Dex Bonus as if it were armor.
Heels restrict fast movement more than anything else, due to the radically altered gait. Disallow double moves, charges and/or running, or require Acrobatics checks to do them (progressively harder). Then allow one feat to ignore all that crap.
Also, stiletto heels could have a Slashing damage if the back edge is sharp.
My gut instinct on all this is to just ignore heels and all the movement penalties (lumped under 'fantasy armor'), and take the Catch off Guard feat, treating the heels as an Improvised Weapon. Play a Rogue, disarm opponents then sneak attack them with improvised heel strikes. Zero new rules required.
If you want to get an idea of this concept in action, check this video and pay attention to the girl in white. That might give you a better impression of how someone would move and fight with this kind of weapon.
Vadskye wrote: Why are movement speed penalties different for different creature sizes? That's not the way things normally work. Also, why a flat penalty instead of one scaling with movement speed?
What about wearing stilettos causes a character to gain a save bonus against paralysis, exhaustion, or fatigue?
Why use completely different mechanics for stilettos than for every other weapon in the game? I'd just make them an exotic weapon that does d4 (one die size higher than unarmed) and requires no hands to attack. Sure, you can add on an additional penalty for wearing them without the proficiency - either denying dex or the -4 dex, but not both.
1 - Weight physics. Gravity is not proportional to your muscle strenght/weight ratio, so a 1,50m girl weighting 40kg walks a lot easir in heels than a 2m girl with 90kg, the muscle strenght of the bigger girl does not nullify the weight + gravity effect when wearing the heels.
2 - Conditioning. You spend a lot more cal when walking up stairs while wearing heels, your body is always making an effort to keep balance and if you don't want to fall due to relying on the heel itself you have to move in tiptoes all the time. Now imagine it in a Pathfinder scenario with mountains and such.
3 - The several penaties have a reason, I don't plan on abusing them but since I started playing d20 system I've seen a lot of abuse like PunPun, thousands of damage and others like havinh all attributes bonus to AC so I tried to make it as fair as I could. One of the advantages would be always ready to attack and have free hands to perform magic and many other actions.
Besides the style have a reason too, and it is to not allow other styles since style combos would grant lots of benefits.
I guess I was too afraid of it being overpowered without my knowledge. I think straight for my use but in case someone wants to use it in the adventure or future adventures, I don't want it to be totally balanced but I don't want it to be broken too...
Helic wrote: Raoni Luna wrote:
Stiletto Heels - Close (or Monk)
Damage: 1d4, piercing, 18~20, x2
Special: Speed -15ft while on ground, -10 if small, tiny suffers no penalty. While on ground AC dodge bonus (including DEX) is negated (like flat-footed) and DEX bonus is reduced by 4. While on ground and you try to attack with kicks or you try to stand...
There's no reason for these to have a better critical threat range than a dagger (19-20), which is what they fundamentally are; daggers strapped to the heel - even smaller than most daggers, and certainly no pointy-er, with no special curved shape like a Kukri for extra slashiness. You might want to go with 20/x3, similar to an arrow if you're picturing a sharpened heel spike rather than a knife-heel.
Don't negate Dodge bonuses or reduce base speed or DEX bonuses. Plenty of fighting is done on the balls of the feet, not the heels. You might apply a MAX Dex Bonus as if it were armor.
Heels restrict fast movement more than anything else, due to the radically altered gait. Disallow double moves, charges and/or running, or require Acrobatics checks to do them (progressively harder). Then allow one feat to ignore all that crap.
Also, stiletto heels could have a Slashing damage if the back edge is sharp.
My gut instinct on all this is to just ignore heels and all the movement penalties (lumped under 'fantasy armor'), and take the Catch off Guard feat, treating the heels as an Improvised Weapon. Play a Rogue, disarm opponents then sneak attack them with improvised heel strikes. Zero new rules required.
I've had these ideas too, in some point, but the complex rules, as I've stated in my last post, are to prevent anything open to abuse, I don't know what but I have a feeling there is a reason why classes demand free hands for action and sometimes for attacks or bonuses and having this with weapons always ready to strike seem like an opening for abuse.
But again, I'm just being paranoid here. If simple rules can be used, than I have no problem with that (but it is kind of freak in a setting like pathfinder having no penalties for such equipment).
See, my players always want weird weapons (frying pans, for instance). The solution is always an easy one. Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and they pay what they'd pay for a normal weapon of the same damage rating.
Not sure it needs to be more complicated than that.
Why insert realism into a heels fighting style? I wouldn't impose strange speed penalties here.
Bruunwald wrote: See, my players always want weird weapons (frying pans, for instance). The solution is always an easy one. Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and they pay what they'd pay for a normal weapon of the same damage rating.
Not sure it needs to be more complicated than that.
Well the problem is that this weapon leaves your hands free and you don't need to draw it, so that's why all the rules. Well surprisingly it seems that no one here sees a problem in it so I will just consider it an overcautious thought of mine.
Raoni Luna wrote: Bruunwald wrote: See, my players always want weird weapons (frying pans, for instance). The solution is always an easy one. Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and they pay what they'd pay for a normal weapon of the same damage rating.
Not sure it needs to be more complicated than that.
Well the problem is that this weapon leaves your hands free and you don't need to draw it, so that's why all the rules. Well surprisingly it seems that no one here sees a problem in it so I will just consider it an overcautious thought of mine. The same could be said for Unarmed Strikes. You don't need to "draw" your bare hands after all, and you can't ever be disarmed of... your arms.
The only extra rules with unarmed strikes is that you provoke AoO's to attack with them (if your opponent has a weapon) and you can't threaten with them. And one feat (Improved Unarmed Strike) is all it takes to fix that.
I see no problem with just Exotic Weapon Proficiency and you're good to go. Having your hands free is nice, but it isn't OP. At best I could see it becoming popular for bards who want to cast spells and strum their guitar without giving up the ability to take AoO's. Heck, the fact that you can't get 1.5xSTR to attacks by "holding them in two hands" is kind of a drawback in and of itself.
Speaking of, you didn't specify light or one-handed. I'd say light, since then they make a good "off-hand weapon" for TWF.
So I will go with the simplicity of Exotic Weapon Proficiency with some extra complexity, you will need an extra feat for mobility or else you will be flat footed OR you will have decreased move speed, i'd like opinions on that...
More specifically I'd like an opinion on a single mobility problem and a feat or skill needed to overcome it. I thank you all for your ideas, helped me a lot =D
So, for now I'm going with
Stiletto Heels - 1d3 - 20/x3 - Exotic Light Weapon
Is that right?
Waiting for your ideas to finish it.
I still think treating it as a Bladed Boot is the way to go.
But I don't think it leaving your hands open is an issue. It's not even as hard as taking Improved Unarmed Strike to make open-handed attacks--you can do it with Armor Spikes, too.
Actually, these could easily just be viewed as armor spikes if you wanted.
mplindustries wrote: I still think treating it as a Bladed Boot is the way to go.
But I don't think it leaving your hands open is an issue. It's not even as hard as taking Improved Unarmed Strike to make open-handed attacks--you can do it with Armor Spikes, too.
Actually, these could easily just be viewed as armor spikes if you wanted.
Well, I understand but it is kind of different they have their differences, it is more like a dagger trust with your heels, by the way I kick with them that's how they feel. Besides I could easily pierce through bricks and leather with them, so I guess they really should be treated like weapons.
Easy solution: Stiletto heels act as if you are on difficult terrain. The Nimble Moves and Acrobatic Steps allow you to take 5ft steps and move up to 20ft/round normally (respectively).
Helic wrote: Easy solution: Stiletto heels act as if you are on difficult terrain. The Nimble Moves and Acrobatic Steps allow you to take 5ft steps and move up to 20ft/round normally (respectively). Thanks. And in this case, Dragon Style would help me a lot right? =D
Planning on a Martial Artist (Monk Archetype)
Raoni Luna wrote: mplindustries wrote: I still think treating it as a Bladed Boot is the way to go.
But I don't think it leaving your hands open is an issue. It's not even as hard as taking Improved Unarmed Strike to make open-handed attacks--you can do it with Armor Spikes, too.
Actually, these could easily just be viewed as armor spikes if you wanted.
Well, I understand but it is kind of different they have their differences, it is more like a dagger trust with your heels, by the way I kick with them that's how they feel. Besides I could easily pierce through bricks and leather with them, so I guess they really should be treated like weapons. I'm not sure I'm understanding how you think armor spikes work. They're the same as your heels. Just pushed with your shoulders. Or elbows. Or anything that isn't your hand. Why couldn't you have armor spikes on your heels? Why would putting them there suddenly require new mechanics?
This game isn't striving for simulations realism.
Something awakened me after a year of bliss in hibernation...
Grrrrrrrrr
Raoni Luna wrote: Well, I understand but it is kind of different they have their differences, it is more like a dagger trust with your heels, by the way I kick with them that's how they feel. Besides I could easily pierce through bricks and leather with them, so I guess they really should be treated like weapons. Blade Boot
1d4 piercing damage, x2 crit
Blade boots come with a spring-mounted knife that pops out when triggered with the right combination of toe presses.
Benefit: You can use a blade boot as an off-hand weapon.
Action: Releasing the knife is a swift action; rearming it is a full-round action.
Drawback: When the blade is extended, you treat normal terrain as difficult and difficult terrain as impassable.
So, remove the spring and you're set. It's a piercing weapon on your foot and normal terrain is difficult terrain. That's eerily similar to what you came up with...
mplindustries wrote: Raoni Luna wrote: Well, I understand but it is kind of different they have their differences, it is more like a dagger trust with your heels, by the way I kick with them that's how they feel. Besides I could easily pierce through bricks and leather with them, so I guess they really should be treated like weapons. Blade Boot
1d4 piercing damage, x2 crit
Blade boots come with a spring-mounted knife that pops out when triggered with the right combination of toe presses.
Benefit: You can use a blade boot as an off-hand weapon.
Action: Releasing the knife is a swift action; rearming it is a full-round action.
Drawback: When the blade is extended, you treat normal terrain as difficult and difficult terrain as impassable.
So, remove the spring and you're set. It's a piercing weapon on your foot and normal terrain is difficult terrain. That's eerily similar to what you came up with...
I guess you (forgive me if I'm wrong) are forgetting something important about it, we're talking about RPG, it is a concept thing not only about mechanics. Ok, the topic is about mechanics but not at all costs. I mean, it is not about making it simpler and easier but to represent my fighting style within the game with differences to match high fantasy scenario. In other words if I simplify to the point that there is no individuality it makes no sense, I mean, think about real life, do you think kicking in stilettos is the same as swinging a bastard sword? I really did not mean to be agressive so forgive me if I sounded like that, I do that sometimes.
Raoni Luna wrote: In other words if I simplify to the point that there is no individuality it makes no sense, I mean, think about real life, do you think kicking in stilettos is the same as swinging a bastard sword? No, that's why I didn't suggest using a 1d10 slashing weapon with 19-20/x2 crit rate that requires two (or one with a feat) hands to use.
Instead, I suggested a weapon that lets you stab people with a kick for the exact same kind of damage you initially proposed, and with elegant mechanics for making it harder to walk.
I generally think it's a better idea to work with the rules that already exist and just reskin the flavor, than to try and make your own stuff up, because then you end up with awkward "the speed penalty changes based on size and I wrote a dozen feats to overcome this penalty" instead of extremely simple "everything is difficult terrain and there are already feats that help overcome that."
And I hope you realize I'm not trying to be aggressive or attack you or your ideas--it doesn't come across online, but I'm really just calmly offering help.
mplindustries wrote: Raoni Luna wrote: In other words if I simplify to the point that there is no individuality it makes no sense, I mean, think about real life, do you think kicking in stilettos is the same as swinging a bastard sword? No, that's why I didn't suggest using a 1d10 slashing weapon with 19-20/x2 crit rate that requires two (or one with a feat) hands to use.
Instead, I suggested a weapon that lets you stab people with a kick for the exact same kind of damage you initially proposed, and with elegant mechanics for making it harder to walk.
I generally think it's a better idea to work with the rules that already exist and just reskin the flavor, than to try and make your own stuff up, because then you end up with awkward "the speed penalty changes based on size and I wrote a dozen feats to overcome this penalty" instead of extremely simple "everything is difficult terrain and there are already feats that help overcome that."
And I hope you realize I'm not trying to be aggressive or attack you or your ideas--it doesn't come across online, but I'm really just calmly offering help. Ok got it. And in fact thinking about it, forgive my last post, it is probably what I will do. Fits good and is simple, my friends will probably love it for being within the rules. I answered without thinking properly, my apologies.
The individuality comes from how you play the character, and the life you breath into them. Not the mechanics.
You can play the same vanilla sword and board fighter a dozen different ways and they would all be rewarding. You don't need different mechanics for the fact that one of them puts his shield on his right arm and wields his sword in a reverse grip.
The mechanics are what make your character functional. They aren't what make it interesting.
Doomed Hero wrote: The individuality comes from how you play the character, and the life you breath into them. Not the mechanics.
You can play the same vanilla sword and board fighter a dozen different ways and they would all be rewarding. You don't need different mechanics for the fact that one of them puts his shield on his right arm and wields his sword in a reverse grip.
The mechanics are what make your character functional. They aren't what make it interesting.
I do agree. I guess I've been playing with some "hardcore" people that demand the rule to reflect exactly what the character does, happily I changed my "companions" in the last months so I guess the things suggested in this thread will fit better. I'd say most of my concerns in this thread were the way my previous players/masters used to do things, but there is no use parting with them if I carry their concepts with me so I guess this thread was in fact an invite for a change of style for playing and thinking. Thanks.
Few adding notes:
A Calistrean Priestess seems to have what it takes: http://paizo.com/image/content/PathfinderTales/PZO8500-PriestessOfCalistria .jpg
Needing few more suggestions, not about the heels, this is past story (thank you), but about the character. I'd like to craft the heels (craft weapon and craft armor) and be able to create magic ones through time, so I'm going to need to cast spells but have at least a medium BAB.
Giving the concept of the character up until now, I'd like to have a bond with the weapon, I'm guessing Soulforge Archetype of Magus would be the best choice. But the thing is I know nothing about Magus =(
Another option came to my mind, the Arcane Duelist Bard Archetype, I think they're fabulous (and would fit the exoticness of the character)
Any other suggestions? Perhaps an Oracle or Cleric Archetype/Destiny/Curse/Domain?
Thank you for any further advice.
Well, if the NPC has a really good point-buy, she could simply take the Eldritch Heritage (arcane bloodline) feat. Thus she has a weapon as a bonded object and is able to enhance it as if she had the requisite feats. The Arcane Duelist is a different route to the same goal.
Well, updating...
I talked via PM to someone from Paizo here on forums and I went back to where I started and I hope you could give more ideas/options, considering more complex rules:
;==================================================================;
My Question:
;==================================================================;
The thing I discussed in forums was using Stiletto Heels as a weapon, the discussion ended up with the decision of using blade-boots (Adventurer's Armory) rules like the blade was always active as follow:
Blade-Boot, Light Martial Weapon, 1d4, x2
Treat normal terrain as difficult and difficult terrain as impossible
The thing is even though I already discussed this, I am still worried it would be too much out of Pathfinder setting then my questions would be, of course if you can answer:
1 - Would it be too freak for Pathfinder world?
2 - Would it be fair to create a feat to reduce or eliminate mobility issues?
3 - Would you suggest, could be vaguely, additional drawbacks or advantages?
;====================================================================;
The asnwer:
1) Nope; blades on the boots/spikes on the shoes isn't too outlandish for Golarion, although the idea of doing martial arts while wearing stiletto heels is kind of outlandish, and something I'd say you had to be higher level than 1st to pull off since it's not the type of thing that just anyone can do without breaking ankles or falling down all the time.
2) Making a feat that you'd have to take in order to offset any mobility issues would be a good way to accomplish the "Not something anyone can do" bit, yes.
3) Penalties to base speed, penalties to Acrobatics, and penalties on Combat Maneuver/Defense all come to mind.
;====================================================================;
So, with this answer in mind, and perhaps my original post, could you help me with rules? I still think a style is too much, perhaps only one feat to reduce or eliminate the drawbacks and exotic weapon proficiency (since the heels are going to be very thin and pointy, so I planned to go higher crit thread than the blade-boots)?
I won't extend it for days and days, I just want few more ideas before I take my final decisions about it, talk about perfectionism...
Recent threads in Homebrew and House Rules
|
