Why are Buccaneer and Feral Child banned?


Pathfinder Society

Grand Lodge 1/5

Concerning Buccaneer, I found this. Of note is Brock's answer:

Quote:

Sorry, I don't have time to give a detailed explanation. I am working on more pressing needs.

As Andrew said above, you have an official answer. It isn't allowed.

Now he's had almost three months to explain this, and he hasn't done so. While I accept that he probably has other things to take care of, writing out a post doesn't take very long; in fact, it should be rather simple to explain the reasoning behind a ban. If you can't explain it succinctly, then you can't explain it at all.

In short, the above seems like they don't have an explanation, and so they are pulling the 'rank' card. The card that people use when they want you to follow their orders, not question them, and have no reason to explain.

As for Feral Child, the best I can determine is that it's banned because it's illiterate (because you need to be able to "report" on your adventures). If this is the case, then why isn't the entire Barbarian class banned for this same reason?


Because all but he primitive barbarian can in essence read and write...but your assumption sounds plausible for feral child...don't know the buccaneer trait

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Quendishir:

The campaign staff does not typically explain their decisions.

You likely will not get an explanation.

You are just going to have to accept that these two archetypes are banned and move on.

If you really want them not to be banned, then take an example from Jiggy, and how he got the Magical Knack trait unbanned.

Form an argument for why the archetype shouldn't be banned, giving all the pros and cons, and if Mike Brock is swayed by the argument, he will reverse the ban.

But don't expect him to even comment on your argument.

My suggestion is to just move on and accept it.

Grand Lodge 1/5

However, players can get a "chronicler" for 10PP, which can do the reporting for them. This essentially negates the illiteracy of the class or archetype (our Barbarian has one, for instance).

Grand Lodge 1/5

Andrew:

Here's the issue, though: we don't know why they are banned to begin with. If we don't know why, then we can't make a coherent argument as to why it should be unbanned. If we can't focus on the reasons, then we can't list properly the pros and cons of each. That is the reason for this thread.

Giving us the knowledge allows us to look into the reasons and understand why it happened to begin with. In the end, it's about knowledge.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/5

Barbarians haven't been illiterate since the days of v.3.5.


Quendishir wrote:
However, players can get a "chronicler" for 10PP, which can do the reporting for them. This essentially negates the illiteracy of the class or archetype (our Barbarian has one, for instance).

I thought Pathfinder did away with the whole "Barbarians can't read or write" thing. Or am I just imagining that? I'd check the rules, but the net here is dropping out on a regular basis (fingers crossed it holds long enough to post this).

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/5

The thing is, the campaign staff have limited time. They make decisions, which in many cases are easy to see why they've been made, even if you don't agree with them. They can spend their time spelling out those decisions, or making the season 5 metaplot (and the scenarios in it) as enjoyable as possible, and giving great support to conventions worldwide.

Grand Lodge 1/5

You would be correct; Pathfinder did away with illiteracy for Barbarians.

4/5

Paz wrote:
Barbarians haven't been illiterate since the days of v.3.5.

Actually

3.5 SRD wrote:

Illiteracy

Barbarians are the only characters who do not automatically know how to read and write. A barbarian may spend 2 skill points to gain the ability to read and write all languages he is able to speak.

A barbarian who gains a level in any other class automatically gains literacy. Any other character who gains a barbarian level does not lose the literacy he or she already had.

Grand Lodge 1/5

How can one agree or disagree with a decision if it doesn't have a reason?

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/5

Rogue Eidolon: That was the point I was trying to make: in v.3.5 barbarians were illiterate; in PFRPG they're not. Sorry if my sentence was ambiguous.

Paizo Employee 4/5 Developer

Quendishir wrote:

Now he's had almost three months to explain this, and he hasn't done so. While I accept that he probably has other things to take care of, writing out a post doesn't take very long; in fact, it should be rather simple to explain the reasoning behind a ban. If you can't explain it succinctly, then you can't explain it at all.

In short, the above seems like they don't have an explanation, and so they are pulling the 'rank' card. The card that people use when they want you to follow their orders, not question them, and have no reason to explain.

As for Feral Child, the best I can determine is that it's banned because it's illiterate (because you need to be able to "report" on your adventures). If this is the case, then why isn't the entire Barbarian class banned for this same reason?

The precise reasoning for these two archetypes being banned is not known to me, but that's largely because the decisions preceded my working for Paizo. Once I am less busy with the July releases for PaizoCon, it's a talking point I would be willing to bring up in the office.

That's not my pulling rank, and I wouldn't say that it was Mike pulling rank either. When one of us doesn't answer a question right away because we're working on one or more very pressing projects, it's possible that the question has accidentally slipped off our to-do lists. A polite reminder is typically enough to get our attention. When it comes to wanting us to overturn an earlier decision, we respond well to logical, well-reasoned explanations of why something would be better another way.

I aim to encourage discourse and provide at least some type of explanation, even if my other work does not always allow me time to explain something down to the finest detail. "Because I said so," is not my preferred means of discussing topics, and I would prefer it not be the assumption for my behavior or that of the campaign staff.

Liberty's Edge 4/5

Paz wrote:
Rogue Eidolon: That was the point I was trying to make: in v.3.5 barbarians were illiterate; in PFRPG they're not. Sorry if my sentence was ambiguous.

Ah, quite so--except me, of course!

(OOC: I'm from the legal True Primitive archetype)

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/5

Quendishir wrote:
How can one agree or disagree with a decision if it doesn't have a reason?

Usually it's obvious; for Feral Child you even stated it in your original message (illiterate Pathfinders make no sense). And your counter-example of illiterate barbarians being allowed has been shown to not be the case.

And for the buccanneer, Mike Brock has already given an answer.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Quendishir wrote:

Andrew:

Here's the issue, though: we don't know why they are banned to begin with. If we don't know why, then we can't make a coherent argument as to why it should be unbanned. If we can't focus on the reasons, then we can't list properly the pros and cons of each. That is the reason for this thread.

Giving us the knowledge allows us to look into the reasons and understand why it happened to begin with. In the end, it's about knowledge.

The same held true for Magical Knack.

We didn't know why it was banned.

And yet, Jiggy was able to create an argument for why it shouldn't be.

Go read his argument and figure out how to make one for these two archetypes.


Quendishir wrote:

Concerning Buccaneer, I found this. Of note is Brock's answer:

Quote:

Sorry, I don't have time to give a detailed explanation. I am working on more pressing needs.

As Andrew said above, you have an official answer. It isn't allowed.

Now he's had almost three months to explain this, and he hasn't done so. While I accept that he probably has other things to take care of, writing out a post doesn't take very long; in fact, it should be rather simple to explain the reasoning behind a ban. If you can't explain it succinctly, then you can't explain it at all.

In short, the above seems like they don't have an explanation, and so they are pulling the 'rank' card. The card that people use when they want you to follow their orders, not question them, and have no reason to explain.

As for Feral Child, the best I can determine is that it's banned because it's illiterate (because you need to be able to "report" on your adventures). If this is the case, then why isn't the entire Barbarian class banned for this same reason?

Well he never said he would give a detailed answer. He only said he did not have time to give one right then. I can see how it could be read that way however.

For what its worth I think you should come up reasons for it not to be banned, if you want it to be allowed.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

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Buccaneer is a great archetype but there are too many siege bonus feats that would have to be changed. If I just declared them outright banned and no replacements for the archetype, people would become even more upset.

As for the suggested "fix" for Feral Child and spending 10 PP to obtain the services of a Chronicler, The Decimverate want you to report all of your adventures, not skip the first five because you are illiterate.

There are just some options out of the thousands found in Pathfinder that won't fit OP and this is two of them.

Next time, try not to be so condescending.

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