Goblin Squad Member
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The idea of having escalations is a pretty cool one, although not unique to MMOs, and there lies my concern.
They will be interesting, the first dozen or so times, and then they will become mundane.
If escalations become [insert x humanoid mob type] events, and nothing more the interest in them will wear off even faster.
Questions:
1. Are there plans to have non combat based escalations?
Examples: Plagues, Natural Disasters (ie. forest fires), Temporal Rifts (yeah I know that is Sci Fi, but why not?), etc.
2. How will players learn of these escalations? Will they be able to hunt down certain escalations, while leaving others alone?
3. If players can initiate escalations, can they choose which type? Will they be able to advance an escalation to the next stage? How does initiating or advancing an escalation work?
4. How frequent will escalations be? Will a settlement have to deal with escalations constantly, or will there be cool downs?
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Goblin Squad Member
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In the gobbo podcast the devs mentioned a dev-led escalation event involving slavery in the River Lands iirc. This contrasts to the player-led escalations which are working off the back of Monster Escalations ie players can dictate where escalations occur and trigger them and possibly help them if their alignments match the mob type they're encouraging? So possibly chaotic might encourage goblins and lawful idk might encourage unicorns (!)?
Plagues should be a system that is easy to encourage every so often as less graphical requirements and more about transmission systems. Natural events might a tougher nut, both assets and also exploits? I'd like it if it was dev-induced random events that would be very nice for randomness and variability if do-able.
The main thing with escalation is that they are genuinely high number of mobs assaulting a target and being a genuine threat and danger if left unchecked and with high variability eg not always marching the same path every time they hit stage 3 of the escalation routine. Ideally imo.
The devs milestone 2 is escalations so they are half-way through that since last Friday, so that was starting from April 17, then it's 1.5 months halfway ie mid-July we might hear the full scoop on Escalations?
An escalation is a dynamic story event such as a Bonedancer goblin invasion, an outbreak of widespread banditry from the League of the Wood, or a raid of dark elf slavers.
Taking into account the development of the nearby settlements and the relative position of the monster hex in the Crusader Road region—Kellid barbarians raiding down into the River Kingdoms from Numeria are more likely to strike along the northern marches, while the bandit gangs that make up the League of the Wood naturally favor the cover provided by the Echo Wood on the eastern half of the Crusader Road area.
The combination of different types of strength-based advances, expansion preference, stage advances, and quests associated with stages provides us with a wide variety of tools for creating very different experiences from escalation to escalation. Some escalations like the barbarian raid will effectively "march" across the map; some will reach a defensible limit and fort up; some will keep trying to expand indefinitely and attempt to overrun the entire map. Some escalations will burn out on their own, and simply leave if no one defeats them. Others will continue indefinitely until someone puts them down.
This seems to explain very generally some of the Escalations eg the Geography will dictate some mob types. And I guess the Escalation system itself will cycle through different types of cycle options based on some random rule maybe as well as the salient parameters eg strength of civilized hexes nearby for one.
Hexes heavily overrun by an escalation of powerful monsters will be formidable obstacles. Most escalations will also make harvesting resources in an area considerably more difficult, and will eventually threaten player-built structures in claimed wilderness hexes—if you don't do anything about the ogres, they'll plunder your farms and mines and pull down your watchtowers. Finally, hexes infected by escalations for a long time will be severely depleted of resources—ignoring the problem and hoping it goes away isn't the best coping strategy.
So it appears the function of escalations are:
1. PvE content for newbie players - which is open work in demand from settlements ie monster-slaying.
2. Quest content with more lore and flavor emphasis
3. Resource collection ie "goblin balls" I heard thrown around in the forums, is that really what is being meant?! Some sort of Goblin equivalent to scalping... :O
4. Special item acquisition for settlements
5. Harassment and damage of settlement operations and POI eg resources such as fields, mines, fortified towers
6. Sow escalations near enemy settlements.
=
I'm more interested in the way escalations connect to posing a threat to PvE resource faucets for settlements (yours and your enemies) than quests personally. And how random and severe extent they can pose. Simple rules that can dictate the number of mobs, the power of them, the activity type they homing towards - these sorts of things would provide how variability and uncertainty = exciting pve content imo.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bludd,
I have some of the same questions/concerns. One of my concerns was (and still is to an extent) that monster hexes will become the new dungeon - a static location that can easily be camped or at least scouted often to see if it's in escalation mode - almost becoming an attraction (ala themepark), rather than a randomly occurring threat. As you say, this will become rather predictable. True, perhaps the type of escalation may change, but once you've identified a monster hex, you'll know where to find it for future activity and loot (coin, raw materials, etc.). My hope was that monster hexes, when cleared of their escalation nasties, would revert to a wilderness hex (which could still birth new monsters in the future), but that at the same time, existing wilderness hexes could become monster hexes...thus keeping us guessing and on our toes. However, in the most recent Gobbocat (9), we learn that at least the first of these two (monster to wilderness) will not happen for fear of wiping out all the game-provided content in an area (i.e. the players defeat the escalations, monster hexes convert to wilderness, and settlements take over the hex, leaving no fun for new players).
I think it would still be fun to see wilderness hexes that are invaded by escalations be turned into (even temporarily) new monster hexes capable of spawning new escalations. That is, if hex "A" was a monster hex that's escalation spilled over into wilderness hex "A", not only could monster hex "A" keep spawning goblins, but so could wilderness hex "A"...the little buggers spread out, established a new camp, and now have two bases of operation.
To reply to your specific points...
1. Noncombat Escalations
I think having something that pops up temporarily that isn't a monster but could be interacted with and possibly still attacked would be great fun and provided needed variety. These may be better viewed as mini-escalations, since they likely wouldn't necessarily build into something capable of threatening the stability of a nearby settlement. Perhaps a temporary merchant camp, where you can buy basic items and sell odds and ends with the NPCs, find a safe camp for the night, etc. After a time, the camp would break up as the merchants moved on their way. How about an NPC harvesting camp where you can either help guard them from the monsters their activities stir up and earn a reward, or kill the workers and steal their raw mats, depending on your alignment. Perhaps a scouting base camp for an NPC race looking to move into the area, but not automatically aggressive in their reaction to "guests". All of these could also provide NPC for some slavery mechanic. We have been told slavery will be possible, but the mechanic for enslaving NPCs and the source for gaining new slaves has not been presented thus far. Such NPC escalations could be the source.
3. Initiating and Advancing Escalations
I'm not certain how players would initiate escalations, unless you had something in the monster hex, perhaps a cave, whereby entering the cave, you stirred up the nasties that were living inside. Having discovered you in this particular branch of their underground lair, reinforcements are sent, which take the form of the escalation beginning on the surface. Or perhaps simply our stepping into the hex starts it up, so until we venture in, it appears like any other wilderness area. I'm guessing, however, that GW plans to have the escalation initiate with or without our triggering it, so that it might be out there, somewhere, churning and growing...just waiting for us to stumble across it or building to the point that it comes looking for us.
GW has mentioned that players can potentially "add" to an escalation - stir it up in hopes of causing trouble for a neighboring settlement, possibly as a pre-siege tactic to cause added chaos before your major offensive begins. I'm wondering if this would be initiated by attacking the escalation so that they send more mobs out in your direction (which just happens to be in the direction of the settlement you're looking to mess with) or if you actually can "help" the escalation. Could having the same alignment as the escalation allow you to actually gift creatures involved raw materials which they quickly convert to weapons, armor, food, etc. for their growing (escalating) war-party? Could certain player-cast spells add buffs, bonuses, bolster morale, enrage, etc., all adding to the nastiness of the escalation? Or, having made friends with them, could a "follow" mechanic be used so their scouts follow you to the settlement you're looking to target, then like ants tracking a scent trail, the growing horde knows exactly where to go for spoils?
I would like to see other posters thoughts about new types of escalations. One that occurred to me while writing this is a mage's experiment that goes horribly wrong and opens a gate through which all manner of baddies spill forth, rather than the usual orcs, goblins, etc. Given the creativity of our posters, we could potentially supply GW with a trove of escalation ideas, enough to last a good long while and keep escalations fresh, fun, and unpredictable...have at!
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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@AvenaOats:
During one of the discussions on MTX and their consequences, the term "PLEX-equivalent" was being thrown around a lot to reference PFO's mechanic by which someone could buy subscription time with cash and then trade it to another player in-game for whatever in-game stuff was agreed.
Because of the clunky nature of using "PLEX-equivalent", someone tried to blackmail GoblinWorks into providing a name for said item so that it could be talked about; the blackmail was substantially "If you don't offer a better name, we are going to start calling it Goblin Balls."
No alternative name has yet been provided.
To respond to your particular concern: I don't think that escalations are intended to overpower even a marginally well-organized settlement. The worse the settlement organization, the more losses they will take during the escalation response, both in terms of opportunity cost of not being able to harvest or gather in the affected area and in terms of time and consumables used to oppose the escalation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm very much hoping that some escalations, if allowed to grow to their largest level, will require one or more settlements to beat back, and that during the battle, actual settlement property will be damaged or destroyed. A whole settlement...likely not, but smashed guard towers like Ryan mentioned, or battered gates, breached walls...I hope so. More the reason to keep an eye on monster hexes and squelch escalations, at least the ones close to home, before they grow too large.
In the Gobbocast 9 installment, one of the Devs mentioned that he was very much looking forward to how escalations would interact with existing settlements and that having player owned property being put at risk by such escalations was something he was interested in watching progress in PFO.
Player-initiated escalations:
With proper training and assembly of components players could be capable of performing a ritual that starts a plague of undead, building a forge that creates automatons (which gather resources and feed them to the forge to create more of them causing depletion of local resources) or opening of a planar rift through which hordes of wild elementals, malicious fey or rapacious fiends come and gain local foothold and expand the rift to allow more and more powerful entities.
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Goblin Squad Member
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They will be interesting, the first dozen or so times, and then they will become mundane.
I actually think the randomness in their spawn times and spawn locations, combined with their ability to disrupt large-scale plans, will make for some really epic stories throughout the game's lifetime.
Can you just imagine the first time an unexpected Escalation turns the tide in a major Settlement conflict?
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I don't think that escalations are intended to overpower even a marginally well-organized settlement.
There's more to it than that, really.
While I believe it's true that a "moderately well-organized" settlement will probably do the things that are necessary to keep nearby escalations from growing powerful enough to threaten them, I also believe it's true that an escalation that is left alone (or even nurtured) long enough can grow into a force that is capable of threatening even the most powerful settlements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks Decius, you nipped a PFO urban legend in the bud by explaining that. Who knows could be another eg of crowdforging: Goblin Balls. Kinda catchy. :)
I think it would seem a little unlikely that Escalations would be able overwhelm a settlement, but I would like the sense of a truly dangerous World PvE with "the barbarians at the gates", so to speak as possible end point.
I certainly think the emphasis on mob multiplication and movement for escalations has the most fun and variable messing of rules to throw players surprising gameplay situations.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think it would seem a little unlikely that Escalations would be able overwhelm a settlement, but I would like the sense of a truly dangerous World PvE with "the barbarians at the gates", so to speak as possible end point.
I hope that escalations, if left unattended, will seriously damage a settlement at the very least. Everything gone but the walls and the main settlement. All of the systemic damage that would do, would set players back a long way. Good stuff. ;)
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CEO, Goblinworks
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They'll become monotonous and boring. Now way to fix that short of becoming a theme park game. By the time they do, you should have progressed into the "real game" of player vs. player conflict, and you'll only worry about escalations as a factor in Settlement management.
Some people will happily do them forever and wonder what all the complaints are about.
There will be new escalation content added over time so there will usually be something you haven't done to the point of total distraction, but they'll be like running missions in EVE, more of an economic faucet than a big part of the value of playing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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They'll become monotonous and boring. Now way to fix that short of becoming a theme park game. By the time they do, you should have progressed into the "real game" of player vs. player conflict, and you'll only worry about escalations as a factor in Settlement management.
Some people will happily do them forever and wonder what all the complaints are about.
There will be new escalation content added over time so there will usually be something you haven't done to the point of total distraction, but they'll be like running missions in EVE, more of an economic faucet than a big part of the value of playing.
That was hardly the answer I was expecting or hoping for. I'm hoping that at least they all won't be combat based.
I thought of one that would be interesting, a form of plague of bad luck really:
The mining nodes around a settlement begin to yield a vein of very low grade resources, one the needs to be refined multiple times even to extract a faction of what it should. Miners have to keep at it, digging and digging. The longer the take the longer the lesser resource there is. Once they finally harvest enough to get past the bad vein, they hit the pure stuff, and then even the rare ore.
No combat needed, just a coordinated effort by those used to gathering and refining.
You could have plagues that require characters with Druidic powers to end, or Clerical combating Divine Plagues. There could be magic based plagues that devour the mana in a hex, only reversible with the assistance of wizards or sorcerers.
Juts something more than kill 10 x Goblins; Now there are 50 x goblins; Now they have siege engines and 100 x goblins; still around? Here comes the Boss Mob Goblin..... Done... next escalation, replace Goblin with Kobold.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also, Mr Dancey, I imagine that certain types of 'Escalations' would only build and spread to other hexes if left alone for long enough.
Imagine, a place 40-hexes away from the starting zones where a Green Dragon has enslaved the local populations, and it takes players anywhere from 6-9 months to even start getting halfway to that area ... that's gonna be one hellishly tough nut to crack, either to ally with, trade with or go to war against, with the Escalation having all that time to expand out into nearby hexes, entrench it's forces and then repeat the pattern.
Other Escalations might just burn out on their own, such as over-hunting of the local herbivores sends the local carnivores out into a killing frenzy to feed themselves until they are pruned down to levels where the slowly replenishing herbivore levels can sustain them again.
@Drejk, ooooooh! You made me see the possibility of a Necromancer initiating an Undead Army escalation, which is exactly the kind of thing I've been harping on for over a year now. Thank you!
Also, such escalations could produce some sort of special resource for the one who initiated such escalation - for example soul/elemental shards that would be rare component for further dark magic rituals - the longer the escalation lasts and the larger its extent, the more soul shards the necromancer gains. Which would mean that those responsible for initiating the escalation would be interested in thwarting the attempts to reduce/end it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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They'll become monotonous and boring. Now way to fix that short of becoming a theme park game. By the time they do, you should have progressed into the "real game" of player vs. player conflict, and you'll only worry about escalations as a factor in Settlement management.
Some people will happily do them forever and wonder what all the complaints are about.
There will be new escalation content added over time so there will usually be something you haven't done to the point of total distraction, but they'll be like running missions in EVE, more of an economic faucet than a big part of the value of playing.
That was hardly the answer I was expecting or hoping for. I'm hoping that at least they all won't be combat based.
I thought of one that would be interesting, a form of plague of bad luck really:
The mining nodes around a settlement begin to yield a vein of very low grade resources, one the needs to be refined multiple times even to extract a faction of what it should. Miners have to keep at it, digging and digging. The longer the take the longer the lesser resource there is. Once they finally harvest enough to get past the bad vein, they hit the pure stuff, and then even the rare ore.
No combat needed, just a coordinated effort by those used to gathering and refining.
You could have plagues that require characters with Druidic powers to end, or Clerical combating Divine Plagues. There could be magic based plagues that devour the mana in a hex, only reversible with the assistance of wizards or sorcerers.
Juts something more than kill 10 x Goblins; Now there are 50 x goblins; Now they have siege engines and 100 x goblins; still around? Here comes the Boss Mob Goblin..... Done... next escalation, replace Goblin with Kobold.
Possibly Ryan's setting realistic expectations which if we look at other mmorpgs PvE content is about right? I mean GW2's Dynamic Event content took a lot of work, but the cycles are still very very "deplete the bar", "hack mobs for a few minutes". What I'm hoping is the basic systems operate as Ryan is saying they need to to perform their various functions:
1. Quest content for newbies and for people who love that content alone
2. Feeders for new players to help settlements monster-slay to keep production running at max.
But what I'd like is basic rules and tons of mobs actually creating armies and rampaging causing chaos as the primary computer-led system, so that players can influence THOSE ie player-led and finally that sytem can be co-opted by devs for things like you say, plagues, fires and resetting mobs to do other emergent things ie dev-led as rare Game GM Events.
But I stick to my claim that PvE that has actual armies (eg x100 goblins) organising and ramgaging across the hexes from time to time would be a real highlight of PvE content that other games have never seemed to aspire to. I mean that would be a bloody battle royale surely?!
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Goblin Squad Member
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RIFT had nice escalations with Planar invasions, but they spammed it too often and if there was nobody online, you couldn't do anything because the Invasion Elementals were too strong for a solo player to fight, and it would take a concerted effort to close off portals, especially since High-Level Players would never return to the original and lower-level maps because they got no rewards once they 'out-leveled' a zone.
With Pathfinder Online, I'm seeing in the blogs that the starting zone will be just as profitable, if not more so, to a 'High Level' Player as it will be a New Player, although the Higher Level Player will have just as many opportunities in distant Hexes as they have to home.
This means that an Escalation can theoretically build to massive levels and start to send tendrils out into occupied Hexes, get Players to notice that specific mobs are coming out of a set area, and as players expand/try to destroy the 'raiding NPCs' base/follow the trail of the mobs that drop specific and valuable resources, the true extent of the Escalation can be slowly revealed BY THE PLAYERS, and it can enter in the Game's 'history' as 'The Invasion of the Greenfang Hobogoblins.' rather than 'bi-monthly shake-up'.
If Escalations start as formidable 'encampments' to begin with, or the result of NPCs interacting with each other, and then spread out and become a Hex-Wide 'event', then we're seeing an Escalation being something more than a throw-away event. We're talking about the world living and breathing around us.
Players in control of a Hex will send out scouting parties to find these 'proto'-Escalations to try and crush them before they grow, or to try and negotiate a peaceful resolution, that's content for players.
Escalations that are allowed to grow to proportions where it could take several weeks, or even months, to defeat them, can be epic encounters that stay with the players for their time in the game. The day when the Seven-Town Alliance finally crushed the stronghold of the Slaver King, Richard Nine-Fingers, and put his surviving men to the sword after freeing the slaves he had used to build his 'empire' might very well become one of the most epic moments in the game, a unique and emotionally grabbing moment for the players involved and a mark of distinction in comparrison to other players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well so long as it's not the same Hex, every time, and the motive varies.
Richard Nine-Fingers might be a Slaver looking to build the world's first global empire.
Karl One-Eye might be a Necromancer looking to become the next Geb.
Sarah the Salacious might be the High Priestess of a Succubi-focused Cult.
Shrub might be a Druid looking to stop the 'insidious' advance of civilisation into the pristine Wilds.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I heard that the monster hex next to Sandpoint was in an escalation cycle and they're having Goblin trouble... again.
Edit:
On a more serious note: depending on how lucrative dealing with such things are, some players might deal with these just for the cash aspect. Others might wait until the end of it and then go take down the bigger bad guys that have spawned.
There are ways to game the escalation cycle depending on what you're interested in doing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Virgil I don't think they're going to be designed to be money-spinners, but time and combat sinks (eg consumables and taking manpower away from production operations)?
Additionally if mobs stand around so that 1:12 players then they'll not fulfill their role, whereas a large horde eg 100:100 then you might really get some player damage and cost whereas the computer can just check the loss of mobs and ramp up spawning depending on how easily they were slaughtered vs how much economic damage they were able to inflict (their objective)? Termites do this when the Queen detects major losses in the colony!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also, Escalations can provide a nice 'check' to players who are expanding too fast, or even provide a 'boost' to players who might be getting hammered.
A Settlement clear-felling the nearby Forest Hex WILL earn the wrath of the locals, and might be facing the minions of a Green Dragon, a Fey Court, a Druid Circle or even Centaur Marauders.
On the other hand, a Settlement facing starvation might find themselves over-run by a rabbits and boars, courtesy of a friendly Druid or Fey creature who decides to reward them for trying to balance expansion with renewable resources.
an Escalation does not HAVE to be hostile. Or even have anything to do with the players. Having a running battle between the nearby Goblin tribe and the flock of Pseudo-Dragons running around in the nearby Hex can provide an interesting hook for players.
Good players will help kill the Goblins and might even earn the friendship of the Pseudo-Dragons, who may or may not decide to become familiars or companions for particularly caring Players.
Neutral Players will kill the Goblins and maybe even a few Pseudo-Dragons to keep the miniature dragons away from their poultry and lands.
Evil Players might save the Goblins for minions/test subjects and kill/capture the Pseudo-Dragons to sell as 'pets' or for spell components.
And then there's the player interactions as people come into conflict with HOW to handle this Escalation....
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, I'm hoping a friendly escalation (due to Alignment) will be able to seeded towards hexes of a hostile alignment/settlement and are mobs that can be safely ignored by the allied alignment settlement. Conversely finding an enemy alignment mob - then it's got to be wiped out at source ideally, especially if an enemy settlement players attempt to nurture it to being a full blown horde on the rampage.
I think when players are resource collecting that's when mobs will spawn and a wider variety of types of mob I think the high diversity of mobs and requirements for players to specialise in monster-slaying again opens up a more complex problem of: surprise and suitability, which again should vary player effectiveness of response. Whereas escalations should ideally be numbers and power type of problem if it's the same type of mob eg Goblins, though different mobs Eg Undead hordes would again pose different problems.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Virgil I don't think they're going to be designed to be money-spinners, but time and combat sinks (eg consumables and taking manpower away from production operations)?
There will be new escalation content added over time so there will usually be something you haven't done to the point of total distraction, but they'll be like running missions in EVE, more of an economic faucet than a big part of the value of playing.
@AvenaOats - It looks like they're going to be a way of introducing cash and probably certain crafting materials into the economy. It probably won't be an awesome source of income, but it will bring in some extra cash. Harvesting and playing the market will make more gold, but sometimes you just want to whack a goblin with a sword.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hmm, that makes escalations sound like quest content. I'm really hoping for the additional emphasis on semi-emergent/autonomous pve content of proactive mob infestations: Multiplying, mobile and aggressive - which cause players randomly bumping into these hordes or settlements' keeping an eye on the local wildlife.
I don't mind there being quest content at all as part of them and serving a faucet function also (which will be fun monster slaying and lore-driven to add) but the idea of a wilderness with some real tooth and claws to it, perhaps even gimpy-gimpy bushes and weather problems, I think these sorts of things add living/dangerous atmosphere instead of being a tourist on a tame shopping maul safari.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Avena,
I agree. Let the players create quests while the game mechanics create challenges and dangers in the form of spreading escalations. But while it does so, I think what some posters in this thread are asking for is greater variety in that threat so that they don't become predictable. GW already plans some of that variety in the function of the escalation itself...starting small and "easily" defeated, and growing into a real (I hope) menace to neighbors. But what Bludd, HalfOrc and others (including myself) are asking for is variety in the types of escalations - in their content.
We know GW doesn't want to spend the majority of its time cranking out content like a theme park game. After all, in a good sandbox, content is our job. But if you already have several dozen types of mobs already designed and animated for other uses (dungeons, for example), then coding changes in their stat/ability strengths and randomly generating the escalations of those mobs shouldn't be too difficult.
Another thought would be this...in that there has already been talk of eventually having some form of foundry for player created dungeon content, couldn't the same mechanics be created for player designed escalations? Give us the tools and we can free the designers up from that task, allowing them to have time to create more specialized features for other aspects of the game that players can't assist in creating (settlement features, new skills, future land expansions, etc.). Certainly, they would have to be vetted by the company, but the time to create them would no longer be an issue for the developers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well from everything written and said in interviews, so far, escalations will be:
-Providing PVE content for new and older players in outer and inner area hexes. Possibly annoying for high exp players, at early stages, but quite "dangerous" if left to grow.
-A faucet to introduce coin and materials. Giving new characters options other than gathering and crafting to earn.
-A threat with increasing rewards as they play out. Providing better rewards like "artifacts" (for bonus to development indexes) as the escalation grows.
-Somewhat monotonous as they are a limited number of "situations". Random placing, different player response, and growing number of "situations" in the random roll will help.
Sounds to me like they will have a little bit of everything for everyone at one stage or another. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Hobs: You're right got to reign expectations, as there's host of objectives GW are going to be throwing in with the Escalations: Mob migrations, quests, lore, story, forts and variables of mob types as you say.
Really the reason I support the idea of hordes (maybe too much!), is that it does not matter what the AI is like for any individual mob, if an army of them is on the march. ;)
As above, the variety and diversity of mobs again is another off-set from AI limitations (ie match-up compatibility with player specialism/slotting and as long as that is high and the encounter is a "surprise" then players will find it harder to be prepared to optimally exploit mobs eg go to dungeon x where there's always undead of the liche lord N'argul: Gives a new meaning to the expression: "dead meat". ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm still not reading anything about these escalations that sounds much more than [incert mob type] mob grinding for alignment, reputation and gold.
I'm not saying the there shouldn't be some mob grinding. I'm just hoping that the variety included in the system includes non combat escalations. It would also b nic if the escalation could have various ways to resolve them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm still not reading anything about these escalations that sounds much more than [incert mob type] mob grinding for alignment, reputation and gold.
I'm not saying the there shouldn't be some mob grinding. I'm just hoping that the variety included in the system includes non combat escalations. It would also b nic if the escalation could have various ways to resolve them.
Yes it would be nice to have some variety. I wouldn't even mind if there were no rewards past "finding a cure" to a plague or similar.
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Goblin Squad Member
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They'll become monotonous and boring. Now way to fix that short of becoming a theme park game. By the time they do, you should have progressed into the "real game" of player vs. player conflict, and you'll only worry about escalations as a factor in Settlement management.
I greatly appreciate the honesty of the Goblinworks team. Too often do game developers exaggerate the greatness of all of their game's features to try to please every audience and too often the players feel upset and disappointed when their expectations face reality at launch of the game.
Some may like being lied to but my hopes for the "real game", as Mr. Dancey describes it, get elevated by posts like these since, to me, honesty inspires trust.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am happy to see the honesty as well. However, I'd bet that GW and Paizo have lots of creative energy to tap that could come up with dynamic escalations. I'm sure there will be some static-types of encounters based on the terrain/location and history of the area. There will probably also be alignment-based escalations as well - think of it like SWTOR where the flunkies hanging around the Republic areas can be the "Kill Xs" of the Empire players. However, they do have to have somewhat of a limiting factor of the power based upon the area (newbie areas shouldn't have a marauding high level giant clan stomping the starting areas).
I think "escalations" theoretically could range the gamut of event types:
1) A neighboring nation tries to impose its will with its armies by trying to strip mine resources and using slash-and-burn tactics on areas it knows it can't hold.
2) PC-generation points, such as the undead-awakening army by a Necromancer player mentioned above. The PC gathers the right people/rare resources, performs the correct ritual, and then the event begins. The PC either joins in or watches with malevolent laughter.
3) An NPC merchant guild floods the PC sales market with low-cost weapons that are marginally better than the crafted versions, but there is a limited numbers, and of course they are carried by NPCs who could be harassed, stolen from, killed ... etc.
4) Famine occurs in an area where the PCs have removed too many resources, leaving the NPC population without enough food to support themselves.
5) etc etc etc
I'm sure you can see my point. Simple ideas for new ways to engage players of course lead to tons of programming, debugging, balancing and might be more difficult to implement than you think. The more players it affects, like smashing a hard-earned settlement with the aforementioned giant clan - while cool - it would really stink if your 18-person guild had just spent 500 in-game hours gathering the resources and crafting each piece of lumber to be blown up in 2 hours.
That's why 99% of MMOs have the "Go kill 10 bandits and bring me their sashes" quests. They are easy to develop and require little-to-no maintenance once created. Maybe we could save those for PC-to-PC hire quests - especially if those sashes have a use?
Variety will keep people interested, certainly, but in working with IT, I understand that the game designers definitely have to prioritize where their programming time and effort is used. A nice experiment would be for GW to engage the community - maybe using a locked spreadsheet format, where members of this forum/Kickstarter backers could be given a specific framework of lore, "points" of enemies, and acceptable themes/outcomes. Consider a contest submission where the top pick is built into the game at release. That would fuel some creative juice, generate excitement, and provide some added content that GW can use, modify, or trash-can as they see fit.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've been really hoping for a plague style escalation where players race to find the cure (and others may work against it/keep the cure secret), but can't see that happening until a few years into OE ... if ever.
As Ryan pointed out above escalations are more of a settlement management issue and the pvp is the core of the game. They may become a little boring after a while, but would be a potential source of income for any combat oriented player.