3.0 had the Zenythri and Chaonds, but those are IP.
We know if angels/archons/agathions/azatas get frisky with a mortal, you get half-celestials, which can later have aasimars as descendants - and those have a full book about them.
We know if demons/daemons/devils get frisky with a mortal, you get half-fiends, which can later have tieflings as descendants - and those, too, have a full book about them.
So what happens if Inevitables or Axiomites knock boots with a mortal? What happens when Proteans make the beast with two (or more) backs with a mortal? What about Aeons? Or the Psychopomps coming in Bestiary 4?
I wouldn't dismiss the possibility myself, but James and co have been relatively quiet on this front.
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Kobold Press's Dark Roads and Golden Hells includes some PF RPG stats for lawful and chaotic planetouched (he says, pimping his own contributions to that cool book).
Some sort of First World planetouched, positive or negative energy, or astral or ethereal planetouched, would also be possibilities. First World, more than the others, as the Golarion astral and ethereal and positive / negative planes are not, from what I have seen, exactly crawling with folk to get their taint on with human(oid)s.
Then again, knocking booties (tentacles, whatever) with one of the natives is hardly the only way to have one's essence warped by that of another plane. Your mom or your dad could just have been adjacent to some gene-warping badness, and not known about the side effects of being trapped in that colossal proteans gullet for all those months, until years later, when you kid was born with strange symbols orbiting your head and fluency in a sing-song language not spoken on this plane.
I've also used stats from Dark Roads and Golden Hells for chaos and law touched. Tough in our group we had different names for them for a long time, that remained unchanged. Those mutated by chaos were called quirks, inevitables couldn't reproduce, but they could make the re-made (inspired by Dragon #352 Bas-Lag article).
I would like to see planetouched races for chaos, law, time, dream, positive energy, and negative energy.
Creative Director
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I can certainly understand the interest in having more planetouched races... but the design space for such entities is pretty narrow. In the beginning, aasimars and tieflings were just made-up words; now that they've been around for so many years they have their own gravitas and feel like they've been around forever, and the problem there is that anything new we introduce will feel just that—new. They won't have the same weight to them, and as a result, they'll feel like last-minute additions to the Great Beyond, which isn't what they should feel like since, in theory, they're as old as aasiimars and tieflings.
Furthermore, the aasimar and tiefling already pretty much cover a significant portion of "planetouched" race options (and you'll note we actually never use the word "planetouched" in print... at least, I don't THINK we do...). Aasimars cover good, be it lawful, neutral, or chaotic. Tieflings cover evil, be it lawful, neutral, or chaotic. All that's left is neutral, be it lawful, true neutral, or chaotic.
The problem THERE is that whereas there's a specific theme that covers all the types of good (celestials) and one that coves all evil (fiends), there's not one for neutrality. Between inevitables, proteans, aeons, and psychopomps, we actually have a VERY diverse selection of outsiders, and I've never really seen how they could all be lumped under one umbrella like "celestial" or "fiend." Which suggests 3 "planetouched" races, which seems wrong as well. Furthermore, I'd really not want overlap between the planetouched races—I wouldn't want the lawful one to, say, cover good, neutral, and evil, because then it's encroaching on the territory of aasimars and tieflings.
And on top of that... there's just not a lot of mythology about humans and non-celestials or non-fiends interbreeding. Part of that's because so many of the neutral outsiders aren't really based for the most part on real-world myth but are wholly invented for the game (the psychopomps being the one exception), but part of that is their natures—they aren't really into mixing with mortals for the most part. While that could certainly explain why the neutral "planetouched" race is so much rarer than aasimars or tieflings, in my mind it just as easily explains why there are NO neutral planetouched races.
Furthermore, I am not a fan of "forced symmetry." That is... if we invent a neutral evil and a chaotic evil race of fire-based flying bat people, that doesn't mean that there has to be a lawful evil one. In fact, without a LE one, the other two, in my opinion, become MORE interesting, because asymmetry is more interesting than symmetry to me. This is why there's not a fiendish equivalent to angels, or why the Empyreal Lords are one category while the fiends have several categories of demigods. And it's a big part of the reason why there's no neutral planetouched race in the game.
And finally, there is such a thing as overdesign. Some types of monsters have nearly infinite design space—devils, demons, angels, true dragons, psychopomps, oni, kami, azatas, archons, daemons, and agathaions all feel like there could be dozens or even hundreds of variants. That's not the same with other races, like proteans, dark folk, rakshasas, linnorms, sphinxes, and so on. We've certainly done a lot with some of those by exapnding them, but I'm of the opinion that these races have a soft ceiling beyond which more variants is less interesting.
Obviously which races have soft ceilings and which ones don't will change from person to person, and I'm not looking to get into a debate online about which ones do or don't or which ones do or don't deserve to have ceilings... the point is that myself and the others here at Paizo feel that way about some monster categories, and as a result you'll probably never see a huge proliferation of these creatures as you do with demons and devils and azatas and dragons and the like. Because if we aren't passionate about something, it's a disservice to the concept to do half-assed job with it.
And to be frank, no one here at Paizo is all that passionate about new planetouched races.
That may change in the future, but that's the way it is for the moment. Which makes it an excellent place for other designers or other companies to come in and fill the void, I suppose.
Sorry for the somewhat rambling and long-winded response; hope that makes more clear some of the philosophies we have at Paizo about monster design though!
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The two things I most strongly agree with;
Obviously which races have soft ceilings and which ones don't will change from person to person, and I'm not looking to get into a debate online about which ones do or don't or which ones do or don't deserve to have ceilings...
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Because if we aren't passionate about something, it's a disservice to the concept to do half-assed job with it.
I wish this sentiment were shared by the creators of comics, movies, etc. Not 'we must put out an issue / episode / sequel to nail down our rights to this property for another five years' but 'we must produce this because I am *on fire* to write this awesome story using this property.'
I'd rather have a section of 'design space' (such as an in-depth fleshing out of Sphinxes) lie fallow for a few more years than have it be handed off to someone who doesn't really care about the subject matter because it's 'The Year of the Sphinx' and 'it's their turn.' (White Wolf may have fallen for this, a time or two, assigning a 'Year of the X' and having their writers all churn out text on that subject, even if some of those writers cared not a flying fig for the subject matter.)
Then again, forced symmetry can be cool, when it works. D&D has had a 'plane of shadow' for a long time, a grim colorless place where everything is muted and suppressed and kind of bleak, with a thin tie to nightmares and negative energy. Golarion has a First World, pretty much an 'anti-plane of shadow,' filled with light and life and bursting with potential and crazy unrestrained growth and energy, and also with a tenuous connection to the raw unbridled creativity of dreams (fey logic being as surreal and whimsical as dream logic, for instance) and positive energy (in the rampant life, energy and growth of the place).
Forcing the symmetry even further, perhaps to a breaking point (although opinions will vary...), would be to assume that, since the First World is no stranger to evil, capricious and wicked fey, like the mites, redcaps, nuckulavee (sp?) and whatnot, that the plane of shadow might have some lesser known pockets of good fey, perhaps servants of Desna, creatures that eat nightmares and leave behind restful sleep and comforted souls in their wake.
Developing such an idea could be awesome, or could feel like a rote 'by the numbers' plugging of a 'hole' in the design space, depending on how it turned out.
Then again, forced symmetry can be cool, when it works. D&D has had a 'plane of shadow' for a long time, a grim colorless place where everything is muted and suppressed and kind of bleak, with a thin tie to nightmares and negative energy. Golarion has a First World, pretty much an 'anti-plane of shadow,' filled with light and life and bursting with potential and crazy unrestrained growth and energy, and also with a tenuous connection to the raw unbridled creativity of dreams (fey logic being as surreal and whimsical as dream logic, for instance) and positive energy (in the rampant life, energy and growth of the place).
Forcing the symmetry even further, perhaps to a breaking point (although opinions will vary...), would be to assume that, since the First World is no stranger to evil, capricious and wicked fey,...
Feywild and Shadowfell in D&D 4th edition cosmology are sort of symmetrical oppositions - both are reflections (at least partially) of material plane with first being place of life and vividness while the other is plane of death, gloom and darkness. This is one of the points of 4th edition cosmology that appealed to me quite much and which I appropriated for Forgotten Realms games to a certain degree.
Several 3PPs have fleshed out some of the corners, there being a 'Fey' book on my 'gonna get' list. If there's enough interest, one of the evil lurkers might do a broader expansion to Shadow or another under-developed part.
And finally, there is such a thing as overdesign. Some types of monsters have nearly infinite design space—devils, demons, angels, true dragons, psychopomps, oni, kami, azatas, archons, daemons, and agathaions all feel like there could be dozens or even hundreds of variants. That's not the same with other races, like proteans, dark folk, rakshasas, linnorms, sphinxes, and so on. We've certainly done a lot with some of those by exapnding them, but I'm of the opinion that these races have a soft ceiling beyond which more variants is less interesting.
I have to say that I agree wholeheartedly with your comments on planetouched, forced symmetry etc. But I do have lots of ideas left for further development of proteans including additional subtypes beyond the main ones, but of course that would be entirely your call. :)
I'm all for more outsiders, especially more azatas and agathions (good always seems to be less developed in RPGs sadly), daemons, and psychopomps. Psychopomps have been one of the cooler additions to RPG outsiders in a long time. I like them quite a bit.
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I count eight "planetouched" races already. There may be more, that's just what I got off the top of my head.
1.) aasimar (descended from celestials and humans)
2.) tiefling (descended from fiends and humans)
3.) ifrit (descended from efreeti and humans)
4.) oread (descended from shaitans and humans)
5.) sylph (descended from djinni and humans)
6.) undine (descended from marids and humans)
7.) fetchling (descended from shae and humans)
8.) suli (descended from janni and humans, but janni are native outsiders. Then again so are rakshasas and they produce beastbrood tieflings.)
Of course it's possible not all fetchlings come from humans mating with shae, but it is mentioned in the shae entry:
From the Shae PRD entry:
The mysterious people known as the shaes are natives of the Shadow Plane. In their own language, their name means “unbound” or “unfettered.” According to shae history, they were once humanoids who through tireless study and self-perfection managed to transcend the bonds of a definite form. Though they still bear roughly humanoid shapes, shaes' outlines are perpetually wispy and impossible for any non-shaes to focus directly on.
Though shaes may engage in all the same pursuits and professions as other humanoids, their overwhelming racial pride often leads them to see all other humanoids—especially humans—as lesser beings. Ironically, this casual disdain sometimes leads individual shaes to gather harems of worshipful human consorts, and it is from these unions that fetchlings often issue. Humans involved in such relationships often hope to learn the secret of the shaes' power over shadows, and claim that only in sacred union with the creatures can one glimpse their true features.
IIRC, the Blood of Fiends/Angels sourcebooks indicated that tieflings and aasimar could just as easily be descendants of fiends/celestials (respectively) and other humanoids - even size Small ones - and not just humans.
Thanks for all the responses. I certainly agree that it's better for a creator NOT to do something than do something they don't really care about. Although, for my part, I *do* like symmetry, which is why this bugs me a bit. ;)
I might take some time to work something out in my own campaign setting - with grad school done for the summer I'll actually have time to work on it. :D
IIRC, the Blood of Fiends/Angels sourcebooks indicated that tieflings and aasimar could just as easily be descendants of fiends/celestials (respectively) and other humanoids - even size Small ones - and not just humans.
This is thankfully true.
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Although, for my part, I *do* like symmetry, which is why this bugs me a bit. ;)
I'm also a fan of symmetry, but I can see where creating something just to fill a hole can lead to some derivative or uninspiring design. 'Filling in the color wheel' to create yellow, orange and purple dragons was such an endeavor, basically crafting dragons just to 'complete' the whole set of colors, even if there wasn't necessarily any real burning need for more chromatic dragons (as they'd pretty much already covered the various terrains and energy types with the original five).
Similarly, making up a new dragon type just because there weren't any dragons with sonic or force of negative energy breath weapons may lead to some brilliant design work, but it's probably better to come up with something wicked cool that fills a *thematic* need, than just 'plugs a hole.'
On the other hand, for planetouched, it makes all kinds of sense that the proteans, who have been around for many millennia, would have experimented with infecting mortal races with their primal chaos, with the chaos beast and its corporeal instability perhaps being a failed attempt at that sort of 'infect people with chaos' plan. Similarly, in the millennia that axiomites, inevitables and / or formians have interacted with other races, I could see an inevitable deciding to attempt to 'perfect' or 'improve' members of mortal races by tinkering with their 'fleshy gearworks', or a formian queen deciding to streamline and optimize her otherwise annoying and time-consuming interactions with nearby mortal races by 'trying to bring them into the hive' via biological or neurological tinkering, to make them more docile and / or useful.
Where a celestial may have fallen in love with a mortal, or a fiend may have decided to sow some spawn in the mortal world as part of a long-term agenda, a protean or inevitable may have very different motivations for engaging in whatever sorts of (intimate or otherwise) activities are required to confer lawful or chaotic outsider traits upon some mortals.
Take the 'had to have sex' out of the equation, and allow tieflings, aasimar or other, to have celestial or fiendish (etc) traits because of a parent or ancestor having been trapped in another plane, or having been possessed by an outsider, or infected with a planar disease (such as devil chills or demon fever), and the possible 'origin stories' for aasimar, tieflings, fetchlings, 'genasi,' etc. is opened up considerably, and there's a lot more room for inevitable-'bloodline' folk, despite it being highly unlikely that anyone in their family tree actually had physical intercourse with a extradimensional law-robot.
I also like symmetry as well, so this does bug me a bit as well.
Take the 'had to have sex' out of the equation, and allow tieflings, aasimar or other, to have celestial or fiendish (etc) traits because of a parent or ancestor having been trapped in another plane, or having been possessed by an outsider, or infected with a planar disease (such as devil chills or demon fever), and the possible 'origin stories' for aasimar, tieflings, fetchlings, 'genasi,' etc. is opened up considerably, and there's a lot more room for inevitable-'bloodline' folk, despite it being highly unlikely that anyone in their family tree actually had physical intercourse with a extradimensional law-robot.
Don't forget that Inevitables aren't the only Law-aligned outsider in Axis - and I could easily see an Axiomite falling for a mortal.
In fact, especially as Cosmopolitan as Axis seems to be in Death's Heretic, I'm surprised there aren't more Axiomite/Mortal pairings than Celestial/Mortal or Fiend/Mortal ones. Arguably, Axiomites are among the most "human" of the Outsiders.
Just like Androids are created then Axiomites could have created a Inevitible/human like race for there own reasons.
I count changelings as First World planetouched, and uldras - ice planetouched.
I don't think Changelings count in the long run, since Hags lost their connection to the First World.
A playable race from the first world or part being from the first world would be fey to me not an outsider. I know Gnomes are humanoid but they lost there connection to the first world anyway.