
Lieahsiel |

The slender elven woman stalks into the arena fingers resting upon the hilt of her sheathed blade, eyes darting over her opponent appraisingly as she waits for the signal to begin.
Init: 1d20 + 9 ⇒ (20) + 9 = 29
Starting position is A11. Waiting on a description being posted in Trihedron's alias profile before I take my actions - pretty sure I'll be going first! If you are cool with it Trihedron I'm happy to handle the map, as I imagine it would make things a bit easier and allow us to move at a brisker pace.

Trihedron |

Apologies for not having started yet, as I am a little inexperienced in this sort of pit fight - Alias updated with the description :D
The sturdy dwarf entered the open space with measured, yet sure steps - after surveying the arena, his eyes settle on the elf across from him, and he bows shortly.
Initiative: 1d20 + 4 ⇒ (4) + 4 = 8
I am perfectly ok with you handling the map updates, thanks for taking it on ;) Question: All combats start with a surprise round? Isn't that odd, since we are both aware that we are entering an arena to fight an opponent that is standing across the room? Question 2: The map scale is 5' per square?
"When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you're surprised"
Probably not the case here right?

Lieahsiel |

Lie nods and as the horn sounds heralding the matches beginning she chants something in an archaic and discordant tongue and disappears.
I'll be PMing my positions to Master of Pits, so its clear I'm not just moving my battleship so to speak. Be six hours or so before I can post again btw.

Trihedron |

Trihedron stands motionless for a split second when his opponent vanishes into thin air, then sidesteps slightly to his right side, reaching for a stoppered vial and drinking from it, while holding his bow in his free hand.
5' step to L11, Move action: retrieving the vial, Standard action: Consuming its contents.
Rolling a Perception to detect Lieahsiel movement, even if invisible.
Perception: 1d20 + 11 ⇒ (10) + 11 = 21

Lieahsiel |

Trihedron |

Question: If the steps can be heard, from which direction are they coming?
Could I have a ruling regarding the attempt to detect Lieahsiel's movements? Namely, does Trihedron detect something or not?
He will try it again this round:
Perception: 1d20 + 11 ⇒ (7) + 11 = 18

Lieahsiel |

A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something's there” but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack. It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check. Even once a character has pinpointed the square that contains an invisible creature, the creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance). There are a number of modifiers that can be applied to this DC if the invisible creature is moving or engaged in a noisy activity.
Invisible creature is... Perception DC Modifier
In combat or speaking –20
Moving at half speed –5
Moving at full speed –10
Running or charging –20
Not moving +20
Using Stealth Stealth check +20
Some distance away +1 per 10 feet
Behind an obstacle (door) +5
Behind an obstacle (stone wall) +15

Trihedron |

A DC20 (10 if moving at normal speed) allows him only to notice an invisible opponent approaching, true.
But a DC30 (pinpoint if moving) is still attainable to Trihedron.
Though the +1 per 10' would ruin it, I believe he still has a chance of success if, for example, the invisible opponent moves and speaks (as in casting?) - this would lower the DC by about 15 to 25+1 per 10' distance.
So for example, last round your character spoke and moved = DC25 to pinpoint:
- DC26 at 10' distance (2 squares)
- DC27 at 20' distance (4 squares)
- DC28 at 30' distance (6 squares)
- DC29 at 40' distance (8 squares)
etc
This reasoning is correct right?
- If my reasoning in the spoiler above is correct:
Perception to detect approach and perhaps pinpoint: 1d20 + 11 ⇒ (17) + 11 = 28
Pinpoint at 30'(6 squares distance), and I would like to confirm if he detects Lieahsiel, because if he does I will act in accordance.
- If my reasoning on the spoiler above is incorrect:
The dwarf moves steadily across the arena outer areas, trying to detect his opponent presence.
Moving to I16, and still using Perception (either the roll above or a new one)

Lieahsiel |

It would be if she spoke as she was moving, but she spoke then moved so its not. Its standard action then move action, she's not speaking while moving. The speaking would only give you her previous position and you could not make the DC. Its why I chose to do it in that order.
Lie chants,
"Egrass Voltimay."
DC 22 check to identify start of the round position.
Roll for Arbiter: 1d20 ⇒ 9

Trihedron |

I agree with your interpretation, makes sense.
Perception to identify start of the round position: 1d20 + 11 ⇒ (7) + 11 = 18
Conditional Perception in case there is movement within 30': 1d20 + 11 ⇒ (13) + 11 = 24
I grow impatient, so... :D
Trihedron moves to the inner part of the arena, his senses completely alert for threats.
Moving to H13.
After moving, Trihedron prepares a ready action - Bow attack, it will be triggered if his opponent becomes visible.

Lieahsiel |

As Trihedron attempts to move away Lie strikes jamming her scimitar between his legs in an attempt to trip him! Sending the dwarf sprawling to the ground as she appears scimitar in hand standing over him.
Attack of Opportunity, which does not provoke since Trihedron cannot see it. Well it does, but it provokes while Tri cannot take advantage of it due to invis. To my understanding this would effectively eat his move action and leave him prone with a standard or move, etc., to take.
Trip vs CMD - Dex: 1d20 + 13 ⇒ (19) + 13 = 32 Includes plus 2 for being invisible and ignores dex, unless he has uncanny dodge.

Trihedron |

Where is Lie for the strike?
I believe it should provoke since it denounces your position, being that it woul incur on all the penalties against striking against an invisible, pinpointed target. Arbiter decision I guess.

Lieahsiel |

It does not since she's invisible, the aoo for a combat maneuver takes place before it does, so she's still invisible. I'm happy to cite numerous threads on the subject on these forums. Normally if I try to trip you you get to try to stop me before I get the chance, otherwise you could end up having to take your aoo from prone, or with a different maneuver already disarmed and thus unable to take an aoo at all! She is as positioned on the map, just added above in J15.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2oonm?Invisibilty-combat-maneuvers-and-AoO-orde r#1
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lc94?Outmaneuvered Not wholly relevant, but shows that the AOO takes place before the actual maneuver does - and thus while Lie is still invisible.

The Arbiter |

*cracks rules lawyer knuckles*
Lieahsiel is correct in that you may not take an attack of opportunity against an invisible opponent (this is actually the case even if you have the opponent pinpointed before the provoking action), and that the AoO would happen before the trip attempt, so it is in this case negated.
To clarify, Lie, you're taking an AoO on Trihedron as he attempts to move out of a threatened square, and replacing your provoked attack with a trip attempt (normally also provoking an AoO from the target) to prevent him from moving?
If this is the case, then it is still Trihedron's last turn, and he may change his actions to accommodate the tripping and Lieahsiel's appearance.
Here is the other most relevant piece of rule information, from the PRD: "You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies."

Lieahsiel |

Yes, I'd target him in I15 if he moves that way since I think that makes things simpler rules wise. My belief is that he uses his move action and my trip is effectively removing it, I think this should be the case even if he were moving up first, but think its clearer when he's actually taken 5ft. of his move. Its worth my while only because he cannot stand back up again and attack, its either or.
Relevant, thread This explains it and comes to the same conclusion as me, but its tied up with a lot of irrelevant stuff about trip loops and is a headache inducing read.

The Arbiter |

The square in which you decide to take the AoO in does not matter (he does use up his movement since it was "reacted to" by the AoO. Since you've already said Lie tripped him "as he attempts to move away", and added a map showing him still in I16, that is where he is now prone.
Trihedron is up (but also down).

Trihedron |

Ok then, let me see if I understand this correctly - I get knocked down, BUT still expend my movement action... Seems a bit too harsh but hey if its ruled, its ruled.
In any case, I was looking at that thread also, I think there are two things that may actually change the outcome of this:
#1: My path to H13 was not written square by square (perhaps we should start doing it), which means that my first move could be from I16 to I15 or from I16 to H15 - in the last case you would have to take the AoO immediately on I16. This means that, as per the thread you quoted:
#2: I should be given the opportunity to finish my move action as a crawl, from I16 to H15 (5'), provoking an attack of opportunity (since it is declared as a move action), or eventually using Acro (as full round action) to avoid AoO.
Thoughts?

Lieahsiel |


The Arbiter |

Trihedron, the harshness of a trip AoO on movement completely using up the movement action has been noted, I will search around and see if I can find more concrete rulings on the expenditure of actions when interrupted (especially if there remains a potential way for the action to occur in some capacity, in this case by crawling).
I should point out that if you (Trihedron) did use up your move action (but failed to move), this would not activate the 'has moved in some way' clause that prevents 5-ft. steps, so if Trihedron used an action to stand, he would still have a 5-ft. step remaining as a possible option. Not much less harsh, but good to note.
In this case, I ruled that the AoO occured in I16, since you could conceivably have moved in some way other than a straight line (though at the time Trihedron did not know that his enemy was right next to him, so it's doubtful that he would have). It is my assumption that if a character does not give explicit directions to their target square, they are moving in a straight line.

Trihedron |

The thing is, I would not say I used any fraction of my move if I intended to move to H15 first, so this would be different than the example you gave for the 5' move + drop, because there has been no initial 5' movement first.
My argument here is that:
- If my first square move would be to H15, I wouldn't have used any fraction of it, because you would be obliged to strike me immediately with the trip (or a normal attack, or any other option of course);
- Hence I should be allowed to crawl away;
- Of course not being a tripper, I find this option more balanced and less prone to trip-locks but still;
- Even perusing the thread, and using my reasoning above, I would argue that in this case, I did not use any fraction of my movement, simply because moving from I16 to H15 would force you to trip me where I stand.
Don't sweat it. As Lie is a glass cannon, so is Trihedron - he cannot be all out there at all :D
In any case, I cannot completely agree that all your conclusions are spot on - of course I have not done as much research as you have, but in this particular case, I think we are dependent on the first square that Trihedron was trying to move into.
I also apologize for dragging this one, but since we are in a somewhat "grey area" I think we can all benefit from clearing it as best as possible, and I agree with you that things should go smoother once we sort everything out ;)

Trihedron |

Since "I should point out that if you (Trihedron) did use up your move action (but failed to move), this would not activate the 'has moved in some way' clause that prevents 5-ft. steps, so if Trihedron used an action to stand, he would still have a 5-ft. step remaining as a possible option. Not much less harsh, but good to note.":
Can I then take my 5 foot crawling and then standard action?
Also "It is my assumption that if a character does not give explicit directions to their target square, they are moving in a straight line.":
I was moving from I16 to H13, so this movement could have never been a straight line, but I believe I understand your reasoning :D

Lieahsiel |

Once you declare an action it is locked in, if an attack of opportunity or readied action triggered by that action takes place you are still locked into your previous action even if events prevent you from taking the action.
This prevents trip loops, and makes tripping someone at the beginning of their move just as effective as tripping them half way through it - which I think is more realistic, though that's not really a rules argument you can use in PF. It also prevents sunder bow on aoo hit with fist instead, same for disarm, etc.

Master of the Pits |

Alright, here is my official ruling on the matter, drawn from my owns rulesy-ness, the thread you both were reading, and the SRD/rules in general. You are welcome to provide feedback or criticism, but I'm not sure this is one of those situations that can be resolved purely by looking at the rules.
First Assumption: An AoO goes off due to the provoking character attempting an action. If Trihedron had not tried to move towards the middle of the arena, he would not have provoked the trip. As some people pointed out in the other thread, this does mean he is committed to using his move action for movement, and (if else nothing occurs between here and there) he is locked into the specifics of the movement as well.
Second Assumption: A character can alter their actions in reaction to what is going on around them. If a fighter kills a goblin with his first sword swing, he may replace the remainder of his previously declared full-attack with a move action. If a character moves away and is hit by a normal AoO from an invisible character, it stands to reason that he or she could react to the sudden appearance of this enemy, perhaps even changing the direction of the move action to loop back around to threaten the (now visible) enemy. The provoking combatant could not, however, forgo their move action in favor of a full attack on their visible enemy, as they 'began' movement before the attack went off. While in a post by post we often post the entirety of our turn (under the assumption that we will be able to complete it without interruption), we should not be any more locked into our decisions than a character who tells his actions to the GM and is given feedback on the actions as they occur.
Third Assumption: There are multiple types of "movement action", which are distinct from "move actions" in the sense that they are actual movement (they prevent a character from taking a 5-ft. step, and they end up in a different position). These types of movement are interchangeable, and may be added to one another during a single round (or single action). One can use 15 ft. of normal movement and then use 15 ft. more of a climb speed using a single move action but two different "movement actions". For a more relevant example, a character with the Fast Crawl feat may use a move action to run 20 ft. forward normally, then use a free action to drop prone and continue the same move action with a further 5 ft. of crawling movement (half of his remaining base movement).
Fourth Assumption: If the provoking character has already used a portion of his or her move action to perform a specific sort of movement (as they would have had they moved 5 or 10 ft. before being tripped), then the movement thus far has obviously been committed to that specific form of movement. If the provoking character is tripped at this point in his or her movement, he or she may only continue movement within the same action if he or she has an ability that allows him or her to do so. If the character is able to stand up as a free action, they could continue walking forward normally (thought they would provoke for both standing and leaving the square). If the character has a way to move while prone faster than 5 ft/ move action, this would also be fine to use.
Relevant Conclusion: If Trihedron is tripped in the square he first moved out of (and I am ruling that in this case he was), he has committed to using his move action for movement, but he may certainly adjust the specifics of this to account for the appearance of his foe (and also for falling over). This means that in the current circumstance, he could use his already started move action to crawl forward 5 ft. He could not, however, use this move action to stand up from prone, as he had committed to moving.

Master of the Pits |

@ Trihedron, in regards which squares are used for movement, I assume movement in straight lines to follow these templates.

Trihedron |

Ok, I guess you have arrived at a very decent ruling that surely deserves a go :D
As he tried to move, Trihedron was down on the floor before he even knew what hit him - his reflexes snapping him like a spring almost immediately he tries to roll away just enough to be able to stand up safely.
Acrobatic Crawl to H15.
Acrobatics: 1d20 + 9 ⇒ (11) + 9 = 20
Able to dash momentarily out of harms way, the dwarf kicks himself into a standing position, staring at the elf across from him, and nodding in compliment for her exceptional use of tactics and positioning.

Lieahsiel |

Lie nods in return as she steps forward calling upon the power of her intellect to aide her strike.
As she slashes the dwarf he is hit with a sudden shock of electricty which courses from the blade!
Scimitar vs Trihedron: 1d20 + 15 ⇒ (4) + 15 = 19 Damage: 1d6 + 9 ⇒ (1) + 9 = 10 Electricity Damage: 3d6 ⇒ (5, 4, 1) = 10
You can use Acrobatics in this way while prone, but doing so requires a full-round action to move 5 feet, and the DC is increased by 5.

Trihedron |

19 is a miss.
Trihedron shows surprising agility as he dodges the strike from his opponent, his light vestments moving graciously about him, a definitely unusual sight for a dwarf...
The way he strings his bow is uncommon, in a way that Lie has seen before, not allowing for any openings that could lead to an immediate counter attack.
Using Flurry of Arrows.
Modifiers: Point Blank Shot + Deadly Aim
Flurry of Arrows 1: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (19) + 7 = 26
Flurry of Arrows 2: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (19) + 7 = 26
Damage Flurry of Arrows 1: 1d8 + 5 ⇒ (4) + 5 = 9
Damage Flurry of Arrows 2: 1d8 + 5 ⇒ (3) + 5 = 8
The arrows are shot with blinding speed, two flying directly at the elven woman with seemingly deadly precision.
Two arrow attacks - Hit1: 26 / Hit2: 26
Damage from each - Hit1: 9 / Hit2: 8

Lieahsiel |

Gritting her teeth as two arrows strike home Lie attacks and swings her blade again, slashing it across the dwarf's side and sending a fearsome burst of electricity surging into him as she again calls upon her intellect for aide, then stepping back and chanting. A burst of scintillating flies from her fingertips as she flings multicolored sand from a pouch.
Scimitar: 1d20 + 13 ⇒ (15) + 13 = 28 Damage: 1d6 + 9 ⇒ (1) + 9 = 10 Electricity Damage: 3d6 ⇒ (5, 6, 5) = 16
Color Spray DC 15 Will or be blinded and stunned for 1d4 ⇒ 4 rounds then stunned for one additional round.

Trihedron |

Trihedron's whole body jerks at the electrical strike that surges through his body - his beard crackling and sputtering at the assault, the dwarf cringes against the pain, as he struggles to regain control of his body muscles.
Damn nice hit I gotta say! I can see the glass cannon part now quite clearly... Ouch!
Will Save: 1d20 + 9 + 2 ⇒ (14) + 9 + 2 = 25
Modifiers: normal save + Dwarven hardiness
Using Flurry of Arrows + Perfect Strike for first attack.
Modifiers: Point Blank Shot + Deadly Aim
Flurry of Arrows 1: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (1) + 7 = 8
Flurry of Arrows 1 Perfect Strike: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (18) + 7 = 25
Flurry of Arrows 2: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (6) + 7 = 13
Damage Flurry of Arrows 1: 1d8 + 5 ⇒ (7) + 5 = 12
Damage Flurry of Arrows 2: 1d8 + 5 ⇒ (3) + 5 = 8
Seemingly regaining some of his composure, the expected reaction soon follows from the dwarf, as another pair of arrows are shot at Lie with blinding speed - clearly affected by the previous attack though, his fingers still shaking from the electricity coursing his body, only one arrow has any chance to find its mark, while the other veers wildly to the left and up.
Hit2 misses for sure but in any case:
Hit1: 25 // Hit2: 13
Damage from each:
Hit1: 12 // Hit2: 8

Lieahsiel |

The first arrow just manages to catch Lie, and it sends her crashing unconscious to the ground blood pooling beneath her.
When she regains consciousness she is obviously irritated, but approaches Trihedron and offers a bow,
"Well done Sir archer, a worthy victory I congratulate you. I hope my next opponent does not exhibit your skill."
A pleasure Trihedron, mind if I ask how close you were on hp?

Trihedron |

Trihedron is already next to Lie as she regains consciousness, and smiles at the elf as she stands up - "Friend Lieahsiel..." - he responds with a short bow - "This victory could have easily tipped in any direction I assure you - I bow to your skill"
Lie, first thanks for putting me on my toes right off the bat - damn, you threw at me all sort of possible hassle that I would not want to face :D As far as my hp's go I'll tell you this, if you hadn't rolled a 1 on that scimitar damage, we would be looking at a different outcome for this most likely :D
I think you will be spreading havoc in these pits, but this is just me sayin'

The Arbiter |

Well fought, you two :D
I should probably point out that nobody can leave the arena itself until one of them is straight up dead, so I'm going to assume this polite conversation occurs after combat is over.
Since there are variables (due to various class or item choices) that can affect a match even after unconsciousness, a fatality is required (though for this fight I'll just assume it happened, and politely :P).

Llaelian's gladiator 1 |

Now that the novelty of her tactics have been revealed, Liane does not look so sure of herself when she enters the arena for the second time.
Her leafcloth armor seem to absorb all the light. On her back protrude a long dark wooden lance and a small scimitar. In her left hand, a finely carved recurved composite long bow is ready while a buckler is strapped to her left arm. In her belt is a rather large scroll box and two quivers full of arrows.
On her left, Pearl her roc companion hops on the ground, fully kitted with a dark saddle, wings half open.
Initiative 27
Can you describe fully your character visible gear and even what is hidden: perception check is 30

Durgrosh Blacksun |

Durgrosh stands about 7 feet tall and is a mass of corded muscle and sinew. He wears a finely crafted chain shirt over his barrel chest. Green skinned he is a full orc with a large tusked mouth and is covered in scars and tribal tattoos. He carries a large wickedly curved sword beautifully made and wrapped in black leather. At his waist is a small leather bag.

Llaelian's gladiator 1 |

Surprise Round
With a swift gesture, Liane mounts Pearl and fires her bow at the unmoving Orc. With a small knee move, she directs Pearl to take flight to the left.
Free action mount, Standard action Bow attack 22, damage 9
Pearls takes flight, disappearing in H4, 25 feet up in the air

Llaelian's gladiator 1 |

Round 1
From somewhere behind the pillar, you hear someone chanting, then nothing else.
Liane:
Swift action activate jugement of protection,
Standard action, cast shield of faith.
Move action for Liane : stealth 1d20 + 12 ⇒ (12) + 12 = 24
Pearl
Fly check for moving less than half speed (DC10) 1d20 + 9 ⇒ (4) + 9 = 13
Move with stealth to K91d20 + 9 ⇒ (18) + 9 = 27

Llaelian's gladiator 1 |

To answer your question, you only need cover or concealement to start being stealthy. Then you can move everywhere. It's not the best rule ever, but it's what enables rogues to attack from stealth.
Round 2
You hear some chanting from behind the K9 pillar, then nothing.
Swift action activate jugement of protection,
Standard action, cast shield of faith on Pearl.
Move action for Liane : stealth: 1d20 + 12 ⇒ (13) + 12 = 25
Pearl
Fly check for moving less than half speed (DC10) fly: 1d20 + 9 ⇒ (4) + 9 = 13
Move with stealth to K12: 1d20 + 9 ⇒ (14) + 9 = 23