Question re ability score damage

[DNH]

I am a bit confused about ability score damage in PFS play and though I have looked around for the answers, I don't seem able to find them. So if anyone can help, I will be very grateful.

So here's the thing: say a PFS character gets bitten a couple of times by a giant spider and ends up losing 4 points of Strength to ability score damage. We know the effect that has until it gets healed (-2 attack rolls, damage rolls, etc) but my question is more about HOW that gets healed in PFS play.

In regular (non-PFS) play, ability score damage will heal naturally over time (at the rate of one point a day), or it can be healed through magic such as the Lesser Restoration spell.

In PFS play, the Lesser Restoration spell can of course be used - a character may have it in his or her repertoire, the casting of it can be paid for with gold as a service, or it can be paid for as a favour with Prestige Points. But can it heal naturally over time?

If I understand things correctly, the answer is a qualified yes. Which is to say that the natural healing of ability score damage in a PFS game can only occur during the course of the scenario. Say that spider-bitten character is two days' travel away from civilisation and needs to return there for some in-scenario reason. He or she will regain two points of Strength in that time, right? However, it is NOT the case that ability score damage that remains at the end of the scenario will automatically be wiped at no cost before the next scenario (as is the case with hit point damage). That is, the ability score damage needs to be recorded as persisting into the next scenario, or else curative magic needs to be purchased (and that recorded also).

Do I have that right?

This is going to be a bit of a hard sell to my group (new to PFS), who will consider this to be unfair and unrealistic, but who will also appreciate the reasons behind the mechanics. This is why I want to make absolutely certain that I have things right here before I go ahead.

So, any advice?

Thanks.

[Sniggevert]

Ability and hit point damage heal in between scenarios at no cost. The amount of time between scenarios is fungible, so there's assumed to be enough to rest up to full.

One caveat, diseases causing ability damage must be dealt with by the end of a scenario, since you can not naturally heal ability damage while still under the effects of an affliction. So, you can either roll out the saves on the disease or purchase remove disease(s) at the end of a scenario.

[CRobledo]

And note that this IS different for ability drain, which would persist.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

Also note, that with ability damage, you do not recalculate your abilities. This is especially important for odd numbered ability scores when you take an odd number of ability damage.

You simply take a -1 to the checks listed under each ability in the ability score damage area of the rules for every 2 ability damage you take to that particular ability.

[Jack R Brown]

Interesting, Andy... this is definitely something that I missed with the changes to Pathfinder. But, per the PRD:

PRD wrote:

Ability Score Damage, Penalty, and Drain

Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.

For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die. Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged. Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration.

Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.

So, perhaps most importantly, you do not lose hit points for CON Damage or Drain... until you die, that is. This is an interesting change. However, this does not mean that your Fort saves are not going to get worse as a poison keeps adding CON damage.

[Don Walker]

Good point Jack. I know a lot of GMs that make players adjust their hit points due to CON damage.

EDIT:

I suppose one can argue that hit points are a statistic, but does that mean you apply a -1 penalty to your current hit point total or to the CON bonus you get per hit die? What is the statistic in this case if any?

I know how it worked in 3.5, but Pathfinder is not 3.5.

And what exactly would a penalty to hit points be? You take lethal or non-lethal damage to hit points, but a penalty?

I like the argument that if your CON isn't really changing that your hit points shouldn't either.

[BigNorseWolf]

Don Walker wrote:

Good point Jack. I know a lot of GMs that make players adjust their hit points due to CON damage.

They do. Is there anything saying that

For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.

this statistics doesn't mean hit points?

[Sesharan]

PRD wrote:

Damage to your Constitution score causes you to take penalties on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this penalty and subtract that amount from your current and total hit points. Lost hit points are restored when the damage to your Constitution is healed.

Emphasis mine.

[DNH]

Thanks everyone. Pleased to hear that I had it wrong and that it's MUCH easier to handle than I thought. Interesting point on the loss of hit points etc.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

Under the Ability Score damage section of the CRB, each ability has its own sub-paragraph.

Read that sub-paragraph and it lists out exactly what is affected by damage to that ability.

You’ll note that encumbrance is not one of the statistics listed for Strength Damage.

[Silbeg]

sigh.

Missed that (and cannot edit my previous post).

Well, at least that makes more sense.

So, basically ability damage and drain does what you typically would expect, except that it doesn't actually reduce the ability. Just been codified in a different (and if you read ALL of the section, possibly clearer) way.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

Drain does modify the ability score, because it is a permanent loss.

[Gwen Smith]

We noticed that Lesser Restoration mentions "temporary" ability damage, but there's no mention of "temporary" or "permanent" under the section on ability damage.

Does this mean that the old term "temporary ability damage" is now simply "ability damage" and "permanent ability damage" is now "ability drain"?

We ended up in an argument over whether lesser restoration could heal the Con damage from ghoul fever, because the ghoul fever didn't specify whether it was temporary or permanent ability damage.

[Sniggevert]

Ability damage is by its nature, temporary. You can heal it naturally over time, given rest, as long as you are not still suffering from the affliction that caused the damage (like Ghoul Fever). EDIT:Magical restoration (such as lesser restoration) CAN heal ability damage while under the effect of the affliction though to counteract the damage to give you more time to recover from the affliction naturally (if possible).[/end edit] It's not an actual reduction in the ability...it's more like non-lethal damage in that it's tracked separately.

Ability drain is permanent actual reduction in an ability. You NEED magical healing to restore this. Lesser restoration will not heal ability drain. You need an actual restoration or greater restoration to restore ability drain. This is more like actual lethal damage vs. your stat.

Damage <> Drain and comparing them by using the same language will get confusing fast.

[Jiggy]

Dorothy Lindman wrote:

We noticed that Lesser Restoration mentions "temporary" ability damage, but there's no mention of "temporary" or "permanent" under the section on ability damage.

Does this mean that the old term "temporary ability damage" is now simply "ability damage" and "permanent ability damage" is now "ability drain"?

We ended up in an argument over whether lesser restoration could heal the Con damage from ghoul fever, because the ghoul fever didn't specify whether it was temporary or permanent ability damage.

Ability Score Damage, Penalty and Drain: "Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration."

Since the ability to be healed by LesRes is written into the very definition of ability damage, I'd say the use of the word "temporary" is either an artifact of OGL copypasta or else merely an aid to contrasting the spell's last line, which references "permanent ability drain". But whatever the reason for saying "temporary", the spell is called out as being a cure for ability damage in general, so there you go. :)

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

Yes there is no longer a distinction between temporary or permanent ability damage. It is now just all ability damage, which can be healed naturally or via various spells like lesser restoration, restoration, and heal. By this definition, all ability damage is considered temporary.

Ability Drain on the other hand is a permanent modification of your ability score (which can be healed by restoration or higher level spells).

A good rule of thumb for this, is if it doesn’t specifically say its permanent damage, it isn’t.