Ok guys, here is your chance. I've been given the opportunity to rewrite Infinite Futures for Avalon Games and make it into what the Future of Pathfinder should be.
So I want to open the floor. What do you, as GM's, players, readers and collectors want in a Futuristic Setting.
Here's my initial view for Infinite Future's 2
1. Generic. The book should be about HOW you play, not a bunch of fluff about a universe you ton't want to play in. Just the changes to Pathfinder to enjoy playing games in a modern or Scifi setting.
2. Guiding. Once the rules are in place, IF 2 will show you how to choose your setting. Fights with vampires on the streets of Seattle, or Laser sword fights on the floating cities of Mars. All will be possible, and we'll show you how to lay out the technology and choices for YOUR world.
3. Supported. Once IF2 is out the door, Avalon has plans for 2 "Official" settings. Fringe, a science fiction adventure on the edge of controlled space with alien threats to conquer, and Nova Avalon, a Fantasy/Scifi hybrid where both magic and science work together and have taken mankind to the stars.
So now, I want to hear from you. What are your hopes and dreams for a Science Fiction rules set for Pathfinder?
Adventure Paths. I know for a fact there are already some in the works for Fringe, and Nova Avalon (my pet project) will have what I am calling "Sector Briefs", detailing a world or area in the setting with adventure ideas and something unique that the area offers for gaming.
I'd like to see melee stuff equal to ranged weapons. In most sci-fi settings close combat is an after thought - and it probably should be, given that long ranged weapons will kill you in a single round. In an RPG, though, you'd have the chance to close to hand-to-hand, so while you're adding all sorts of lazer based weapons and rail guns a rocket propelled hammer or the trusty chainsaw sword would be cool too.
In my own homebrew Sci Fi Pathfinder thingy, I'm working on "synthetic persons" ala Bishop and Ash from the Alien flicks.
So, that. As a playable race.
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Aliens need to be different. Really different.
Let's face it, a 10th level dwarves fighter isn't that different from a 10th level elven fighter.
I'd love to see something there.
Armor as DR, and the wounds/vitality distinction (I first saw in Star Wars)
@ rkraus2 Please no on the wounds/vitality; and armor as DR doesn't work all that well (tried several different incarnations of it, and it gets unbalancing pretty quick - also tends to end up with either attacks doing nothing as they bounce off the armor or they find the lucky chink and kill the poor bastard inside or are just so massive in damage that armor becomes meaningless.
That said I agree with you on the aliens 100% they do need to be distinct from one another, lets not just throw points on the ears of one and forehead ridges on another and call it a day.
However, my preferred Sci-fi genre is PA (Horseclans, Starman's Son, Mad Max, Gamma World, Darwin's World, you get the idea) so I personally would like rules for biogenic agents, radiation, mutation, ground vehicle combat, and scarcity ecomnomics (bullets as currency, barter system in place in settlements, cash effectively dead, that sort of thing).
Less concerned about PC Races and critters though, since this is planned as Pathfinder compatible any good GM can take any critter from the Bestiaries, re-skin it, file off the serial numbers and Behold - a New stellar or PA critter.
You can type out the armor, just like we do now with weapons. A melee character might wear energy reflection armor, to give him time to get close.
It's been done before...
"The slow knife penetrates the shield"
Some advice would be helpful for different styles of sci-fi. Golden age of robots and flying saucers is very different from dark futuristic wasteland.
Suggestions on which optional rules would be great.
I don't see a reason to reinvent the wheel. There are already Androids in Pathfinder, and they are OGL, so free to use.
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Keep it as close to Pathfinder as possible as opposed to some games that cause you to relearn how to play.
ie the man priciples
for classes-
heres a list of Pathfinder Classes and a scifi equivalent
Alchemist- Scientist
- Bombs = Bombs/ Mutagens = Mutagens/ Potions = Drugs. No spells. But
can use a wide variety of technical equipment and such
Barbarian- Explorer
- No Rage. Instead make him a rough and ready Fringer with 'stunts' that are similar to rage powers. Dont call it Rage, more like the character goes into a heithened sense of awareness and can control adrenalin boosts. Being genetically altered for this kind of activity
Bard- Celebrity
- mechanically not a lot of difference, fluff wise some renaming
Cavalier- Space Marine
- instead of horses-starship capability. But can still inspire teamwork and such
Cleric- Doctor
- No spells, but can use a wide variety of technical medical equipment that increases by level that improves healing. Instead of Domian= give field of study, that gives power stunts.
Druid- Naturalist
- no spells, but develops natural herbs and such from local flora and fawna that allow power stunts. Studies life forms
Fighter- Mercenary
- standard space soldier turned free lance
Gunslinger- Free Trader
- Han Solo, nuff said. Space ship skills, navigationsl skills. and can repair items.
Inquisitor- Inquisitor for the Empire
- similar to Darth vader (complete with some psi capability.)
Magus- Weaponeer- Develops and uses innovative weapons. (Light Sabres, Vibro Blades, Sonic Blasters...etc.)
Monk- Bodyguard Hand to hand combatant and master of Combat Maneuvers.
Ninja- Assassin - No prestige class. Intersteller assassin type. Small space craft skills, navigation, stealth, hacking etc...
Oracle- Oracle Keeps 'divine powers of mysteries ;)
Paladin- Peacekeeper- Intersteller law. Can administer justice.
Ranger- Scout- some spacecraft skills, etc..
Rogue- Rogue- jack of all trades..the stainless steel rat ;)
Samurai- -cant think of a name now, but an elite professional military organization that specializes in swordsmanship as well as using blasters and such
Sorcerer- Arcanist unlocking ancient abilities through bloodlines. (no spells but increase bloodline powers)
Summoner- 'Dog' catcher (need a different name..but this conveys the drift. has abilities to capture and train and utilize alien beasts.
Witch- ?? cant thik which direction ....consort to dark powers? or just converti to Technician type and do away with arcane
Wizard- Starship Pilot. lots of tech skills and abilities. no spells. computer stuff galore.
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right. Maybe I should have been more specific in what I was saying.
When 3.0 came out WOTC released Alternity, which on the surface said a'd20' game system. However it totally reinvented the wheel. Instead of using the same system, they re did everything, as a result it never caught on.
My thinking is.
Keep the same fundamentals
1. Same ability score variables.
2. Same racial variables...not the same races. but what a race brings to the table. The advanced race guide would go along way to develop races in a sci-fi setting.
3. Same things a class does. ie BAB progression, Hit die progression, save progression, 'levels' for class ability increases. Use the classes as guidelines for what a class should be able to do.
4. Same skill mechanics (different skills for sure, in some cases) but similar level increases and prereqs etc..
5. Same Feat overview
6. Same damage capability for weapons.
7. Same Combat basics
8. same breakdown of what 'spell's (or abilities) should be able to do at each level.
ie dont reinvent the wheel, but merely reinvent the fluff
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so in doing that...
we have
Combatant characters
Holy warrior
Guerilla warrior
Hand to hand warrior
ranged tech warrior
beserk warrior
arcane swordsman
Elite Swordsman
Noble Knight
Arcanist characters
natural arcanist
learned arcanist
unnatural arcanist
chemical arcanist
Skilled Dabbler
linked arcanist
Divine characters
divine by birth
divine by organization
divine by nature
divine by skill
skilled characters
Total Skill based
Shadowy skilled
and look at the overall template to match sci fi characters too
What A future for Pathfinder could be. Just because you put out a rules set, does not give you ownership over the subgenre. Dragonstar was not the only space rules set made for D+D, nor was Spelljammer, neither was D20 Future. Technically speaking, Mutants and Masterminds could make claim for it's contribution as wellOk guys, here is your chance. I've been given the opportunity to rewrite Infinite Futures for Avalon Games and make it into what the Future of Pathfinder should be.
We want to produce a great product for the genre, not take ownership over anything. The beauty of Pathfinder and Third Party is the ability to add your own views to a good core set of rules.
That being said, we would like to create a book that people feel comfortable with to use as their core rules for Future adventures. Not by ownership, or claiming ownership, but by providing the best product we can.
Classes:
So far we have a set of core classes that can sit in any Age, you could even play them in Core Pathfinder if you really wanted.
Talents give the player the opportunity to personalize their particular character class from others taking the same class.
Armor:
Ah isn't this a hot topic. With Pathfinder's official guns rules stating that anything within 5 range increments for a weapon is resolved as a touch attack, we've opted to use the "Armor as DR" rules at this point. Playtesting is continuing to make sure this is balanced.
Races:
We've kept one original race, Humans, and replaced the rest with many races that sum up the genre. Little Green Men, Acid for Blood Alien Hunters, and more.
Plus there's no reason not to include the original races. Add a template and you've changed them to fit into a Scifi setting.
Want to be from a High G world? Take the template. Suddenly your elf is now stronger than an average human, has a bonus on Fort saves due to how powerfully built it is, and is ready for play.
Settings:
We really want to allow the DM to create the setting s/he wants to play in. We will provide setting specific information, weapon classes, even ideas and guidelines on how to handle specific setting issues. But ultimately, creating the setting is your vision.
We do have 2 "official" settings we will be launching based on this core book.
One thing this thread shows is that Sci Fi is like pizza, everyone wants different toppings. If you write a good rules system that is flexible enough to change with the players, you will be a winner. Some players don't want to mix genres, and some do.
"Hey, you got your Armageddon in my space opera!"
"No, you got your Psionics in my Neo Barbarians!"
If you work it out, it will be a good game.
Also, I am kinda against classes for a Sci fi game. LOL, saved the bomb for last.
Wants:
An assumed setting - I know you want to be open about things, but one of the grounding facts of pathfinder is its first and foremost a product to help play games in golarion. That vision keeps things in some semblance of order. Science fiction is in some ways a bigger genre then fantasy, and it needs some kind of restriction of scope or it will never get off the ground. You cant make a game that will let you play star trek, battlestar galactica, stargate sg1 and doctor who all in one. It just wont work, each of those need different rulesets. DnD always had an assumed setting, so does pathfinder. Find one that works for you. If you later want to have expansions for other kinds of games, great, but if you want a book to work it needs focus.
Scalable tech - Same setting different time periods. Give me a way to play a variety of tech levels within your assumed setting. Maybe by being in different parts of it (backwater earth with barely spaceworthy ships, and the planet 'Qatar' with big megacruiser warp 11 ships.
Needs:
Classes similar in design to pathfinder. They represent the perfect blend of set abilities and modularity. If you make a system that is all talents and feats, you wont see my interest. I need classes to give some guidance as to what they are going to be able to do. Otherwise creating a character becomes way too much of a headache.
Adventures - This is an absolute need. I wont bother with a game system that doesn't offer published adventures anymore. I just dont have the time to create my own. If I cant at least buy a module (preferably an ap or a large module like the new Paizo Modules) to help me run the game, I'm not going to bother.
Setting Information - This comes to the same thing as adventures. I dont have the time anymore to create a world from scratch. Give me something to start with and let me go from there.
So a lot of what I'm hearing is it's great to have the rules to guide DM's in making their own world, but the book needs a core "official" setting right from the start, like Golarion?
We want to say good luck and happy to help out if you wish.
We kind ran into the same issues with classes and AC. Some people like "xyz" and dislike "abc". So we kind did both, a customizable base class and archetypes for the other classes. I even got the old prestige classes working in Hero Lab. So hopefully we had all the class options coved. But as you will see, it's difficult to cover everything.
We also started with DR for armor, but as it became an optional rule in the PDSRD, we just went back to the basic AC bonus and let the user decide what they want.
We also have had a lot of requests for a future setting, but really it's too much material to cover by us. I was looking at the Future MSRD the other day and it covers a lot and it might help you out a bit. I think it was a good set of "generic" rules for a future setting. I really like the PL levels to help keep things a bit organized.
Again, good luck and looking forward to it!
What I have written up use Tech Levels, and even Magic Levels. A simple way to describe the relative advancement of a setting. Generic is nice, but as many point out, it's hard to say that while one group might be in TL 7 (The Information Age), they actually have very advanced medicine, allowing for near regeneration (Normally TL 11 The Force Age). So I've also included is a "combination lock" type of rating system. It's optional, but you could have a planet that is 03-05-07-12-01 which would tell you EXACTLY what the level of power sources, weapons, defense, medicine, information tech ect is.
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What I have written up use Tech Levels, and even Magic Levels. A simple way to describe the relative advancement of a setting. Generic is nice, but as many point out, it's hard to say that while one group might be in TL 7 (The Information Age), they actually have very advanced medicine, allowing for near regeneration (Normally TL 11 The Force Age). So I've also included is a "combination lock" type of rating system. It's optional, but you could have a planet that is 03-05-07-12-01 which would tell you EXACTLY what the level of power sources, weapons, defense, medicine, information tech ect is.
This sounds similar to the GURPS way of handling "tech levels"
GURPS had the advantage of being nice and simple. I didn't set out to copy it, but my end result was similar in lay out. 0 is nothing, 20 is "whatever you wish"
Another thing I would like in a Pathfinder Sci-Fi game - An open, transparent playtest before publication to find and fix breaks in the Power Curve. You know things like, well all the classes are balanced well at the top and bottom, but no one will play these 4 because theses 3 over here dominate in the mid-levels.
Also I have to agree with the "Assumed Setting" and "Adventures" comment up thread.
I mean look at it this way you want to have a Space Opera type setting -
is it like:
Star Wars?
Star*Drive?
Star Frontiers?
Galactos Barrier?
Traveller?
All fit the description to a greater or lesser degree and all have a widely different feel and scope. I can do the same thing with PA settings and Cyberpunk as well. A generic toolkit with flexibility to do all of these things is vital, but an assumed setting is critical. This also give the freedom with later settings to make them stand out by showing how they differ from the baseline material.
An Assumed setting means I have to find a good "midway" setting that most players will accept.
Which believe you me, is harder than it sounds.
I myself like the Dragonstar style, science and sorcery
Members of my table prefer the old Robotech mechs and aliens style
So the game becomes.. what is the Assumed Setting of the Future? :)
Yea, that's the issue, it can be almost anything.
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If we're looking toward a realistic future for sci-fi ideas it's all contingent on finding some sort of faster than light travel, hence my naming above on that being a key issue.
If society invents a Star Trek-like warp drive where ships can simply gallivant around the cosmos whenever and wherever they'd like, you've suddenly given the players a lot more free will - their restrictions are really only just how fast said warp drive can go. To be technically feasible any ship containing a warp drive would have to have a strong enough deflector system to stop small things from pulverizing the ship and would also need some sort of much-faster-than-light detection/communication system.
If we're looking at a Star Wars-like hyperdrive system the players are suddenly limited on where they can go - a hyperspace route must be calculated or the players must travel along known routes. Even if they're calculating to travel along little used routes, there's always the off-chance of a hazard interrupting the journey. Travelling known routes also allows "the bad guys" to set up ambushes, track the players, etc.
Finally if the system uses Battle Tech/BSG-like Jump Drive, the players are quite restricted. Only specific jump points can be used, and even then it takes quite a while to recharge the Jump Drive and/or calculate a safe jump point.
And if we insanely allow multiple versions of space travel, oh the fun we can get into!
Not to mention races in the "accepted" main universe, the tech level, magic anyone? Psionics?
oh and did I mention RACES??
lol
but isn't this the real fun of SciFi?
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Like to see something like Star Trek and Star Wars with the use of Psionic. I have noticed that alot of GM do not like psionic in fantasy campaigns. Most seem it is for SCI-FI, which I would like to try in SCI-FI campaign. Star Wars had the Force (limit power and most were dark-side), and others sytems I had played or seen used fantasy magic (Modern D20). Which I lost interested in playing.
Also have armor as normal or damage reduction.
Have some melee weapons that are laser builded (light saber).
Have feats to use some melee weapons to deflect laser, bullets, etc. Like the Jedi did in both D20 Stars Wars editions.
Predator and Alien creature types might be interesting.
Most of all have the character hit points system, especially at the beginning somewhat survive a laser gun, normal gun, laser melee weapon, etc. Unlike in Star Wars (especailly in the 1st D20 edition).