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(...) Keep in mind you may still only perform the free action on your turn, so even if your animal wins initiative, it's not going to automatically do what you want before can you order it.
This sentence on the newest PFS blog make me think at a rule question I just asked on the Rules messageboard, here.
Can I, in PFS, make a free action as part of an AoO ?
I know that no FAQ answered this question, but what's your opinion on this topic fellow MJ ?
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If by free action you mean yelling out ... sure ... but the actions that result from that free action aren't going to happen until the players turn that is going to make that reaction -- this includes animals.
You can't for example
Take Aoo, yell for your animal companion to attack and then move the animal companion and have them attack all on your Aoo.
Instead out it would work
Take Aoo, yell for animal companion to attack, 3 other people get their turn, then it's the AC and they can move and attack if there is room.
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Sorry, my quote of the blog make my question not as clear as I though !
The quote say that you can't perform a free action outside of your turn. My question is : if my AC make an AoO, can he use its grab hability (as a free action) ?
Is an official answer at this question for PFS or at least a consensus on this matter ?
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Yes, I know I use a quote from the blog regarding AC. But as AC often had the grab (or the trip) ability which can be use as a free action I think it's somehow related.
The blog states that you cannot use a free action outside of your own turn (to give an order to your AC or anything else) as a general rule.
But my own understanding was that you can combine AoO with the grab/trip ability of your AC. One of my player says, as you, that it can't be done.
That's why I'm asking here what's the rule in PFS.
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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I've always seen the grab and trip monster abilities like poison. It comes along for the ride whenever they make an attack that is connected with the ability.
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
To me the free action it takes to make the grapple/trip attempt by using the monster's special ability is done while taking your attack of opportunity action.
repost grab info here...
If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage *** and *** attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
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I've always seen the grab and trip monster abilities like poison. It comes along for the ride whenever they make an attack that is connected with the ability.
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.To me the free action it takes to make the grapple/trip attempt by using the monster's special ability is done while taking your attack of opportunity action.
Ahh...but Grab and Trip are free actions not No-actions like poison and so can not be taken on an AoO. My homegame cheeser put me in my place on this one not too long ago.
the action is not a 'free action' but a free action that is part (notice the AND) of the attack.
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I see it as the free-action still requiring a tiny bit of extra time that the creature just doesn't have on an AoO. the monster can attempt the grab but it can't follow through with it.
Ex:
The rogue attempts to acrobatics into position behind the BBEG with tentacles. The rogue fails miserably and the BBEG flails at the rogue with one of it's tentacles, hitting the rogue. The monster attempts to grapple the rogue but before it can complete the maneuver the rogues slips by.
Edit: IejirIsk: No where in the game does paizo use two different definitions of free action. The game clearly defines what is and isn't a free action and when you can and can not take one. If it was meant to say what you are implying they would have just wrote "it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple without provoking an attack of opportunity."
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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I've always treated an Attack of Opportunity as an "Action". It's not labeled specifically as such (nor is it listed as such), but it is essentially an action. For example, if you are dazed or stunned, you cannot take actions, including attacks of opportunity.
While this isn't exactly what's written, treating it as such is most consistent with the way people play the game (and I believe the way the designers intend it to be treated). If you don't treat an AoO as an action... then that causes a whole bunch of other issues (particularly with the above conditions).
Treating an attack of opportunity is an 'action', pretty much everything else falls into place. Stunned works, dazed works, grab works, etc. etc.
Of course there is one niggling little problem with treating it as such... and that is staggered.
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The quote seems to indicate that the effect of the attack includes damage and a grapple attempt as results. The part about it being a free action seems there to clarify that it doesn't interrupt the rest of the creature's attacks (i.e. they don't get to change their next attack into a grapple). The rules trump interpretation of a blog post, IMO.
Show me where it says you cannot ever take a free action on another turn, in this sense. I will admit, if PFS has a secondary rule for this, that is fine, I do not know PFS specific litigations.
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I would allow a grab (or any other tacked on ability) to the successful AoO.
Think of it as a triggered ability. The ability to use the ability triggers when something else happens.
In this case, a giant cat could choose to grab on its attack, regardless when that attack happens.
If it were a snake, and it gets a grab when it attacks, and chooses to do so, and also has constrict, it would get that extra damage on a successful grab.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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Show me where it says you cannot ever take a free action on another turn, in this sense. I will admit, if PFS has a secondary rule for this, that is fine, I do not know PFS specific litigations.
It's the definition of "Free Action":
"You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally."
Show me where it says you cannot ever take a free action on another turn, in this sense. I will admit, if PFS has a secondary rule for this, that is fine, I do not know PFS specific litigations.It's the definition of "Free Action":
"You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally."
another action == AoO. try again?
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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another action == AoO. try again?Show me where it says you cannot ever take a free action on another turn, in this sense. I will admit, if PFS has a secondary rule for this, that is fine, I do not know PFS specific litigations.It's the definition of "Free Action":
"You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally."
I said above that I treat AoO as a type of action. Maybe you missed that. Read up a bit and come back. I'll wait.
I said above that I treat AoO as a type of action. Maybe you missed that. Read up a bit and come back. I'll wait.another action == AoO. try again?Show me where it says you cannot ever take a free action on another turn, in this sense. I will admit, if PFS has a secondary rule for this, that is fine, I do not know PFS specific litigations.It's the definition of "Free Action":
"You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally."
Ahh, I think you missed the point of my question.
This powerful canine watches its prey with piercing yellow eyes, darting its tongue across sharp white teeth.
Wolf CR 1
XP 400
N Medium animal
Init +2; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +8
Defense
AC 14, touch 12, flat-footed 12 (+2 Dex, +2 natural)
hp 13 (2d8+4)
Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +1
Offense
Speed 50 ft.
Melee bite +2 (1d6+1 plus trip)
Statistics
Str 13, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +1; CMB +2; CMD 14 (18 vs. trip)
Feats Skill Focus (Perception)
Skills Perception +8, Stealth +6, Survival +1 (+5 scent tracking); Racial Modifiers +4 Survival when tracking by scent
Ecology
Environment cold or temperate forests
Organization solitary, pair, or pack (3–12)
Treasure none
Wandering alone or in packs, wolves sit at the top of the food chain. Ferociously territorial and exceptionally wide-ranging in their hunting, wolf packs cover broad areas. A wolf's wide paws contain slight webbing between the toes that assists in moving over snow, and its fur is a thick, water-resistant coat ranging in color from gray to brown and even black in some species. Its paws contain scent glands that mark the ground as it travels, assisting in navigation as well as broadcasting its whereabouts to fellow pack members. Generally, a wolf stands from 2-1/2 to 3 feet tall at the shoulder and weighs between 45 and 150 pounds, with females being slightly smaller.
Is like saying a barbarian cannot add str because it isnt part of the weapon's damage...
The witch, seems to yes, since it is part of the attack, same way as the wolf's attack includes bite, I see no problem with this. Raging, usually, is not part of an attack, which is what the AoO allows you.
With the Witch's ability to grab as a free action on an attack, is that also a swift action or does it function like the monster ability Grab?
The grab part of the white hair (ability) functions like the monster ability; it doesn't take an action at all and is a part of the main attack.
-FAQ on witch...
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I would just like to point out that if free actions are allowed on an AoO then players get a whole bag of goodies.
Couple of examples:
My Barbarian can rage before my AoO and then demoralize the poor smuck after I remove 70 points of HP from their hide.White-haired witches can grapple on an AoO.
Sorry, no.
The problem with this discussion is that “free action” is being used in both instances, without discernment for how the free action is applied.
You can’t just “get a free action” during an AoO. But if there is a tack-on ability that can be applied to an attack, then yes, you can use that free action.
If I power attack during my turn, then I’m considered power attacking until the start of my next turn.
If I have the Felling Smash feat, I get a free trip attack if I hit someone with my power attack. If I also have the Greater Trip feat, I and all allies adjacent to the creature get an AoO on the creature if the trip is successful. So assuming I had Combat Reflexes, I could get my power attack AoO, Trip, and myself and all my allies also adjacent to the target would get another AoO (and if one of those allies was the Druid’s constrictor snake animal companion, the snake would get a grab attempt if it succeeded on the AoO, and if the grab was successful it would get constrict damage).
But if the free action isn’t triggered by the attack (which just happens to be an AoO), you can’t do it.
Careful on your spoiler. That's not a FAQ that you quoted, but an answer given by James Jacobs when asked to clarify the attack. There may be a FAQ that backs this up, but for now we have an informal answer.The witch, seems to yes, since it is part of the attack, same way as the wolf's attack includes bite, I see no problem with this. Raging, usually, is not part of an attack, which is what the AoO allows you.
** spoiler omitted **
d'olt! caught. XD it is by James, true and unrefuted in over a year, but should not be taken as rote. Though it seems the grab is still part of attack. And now seeing 3 (in theory and understanding of PFS) judges take a stance. ^_^
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I am in complete disagreement with you all then.
I see it as one of two ways based on whether or not free actions are allowed during an AoO. Either:
1) An AoO is an action (as Dennis said) and thus you can take free actions during it. Thus grab/trip and ALL free actions work on AoO. This idea is supported by the fact that an archer with snap shot can reload during an AoO.
-or-
2) An AoO is not an action and you can not take free actions during it. Thus grab/trip and all other free actions do not work on AoO. This is supported by the fact that the book doesn't define AoO as actions and you can't take free actions (other than talking) when not on your turn / taking an action.
It seems to me that you all have created a new type of free action just to keep things the way you all play it. The "free-action that is part of an attack" is special in that you can use it during an AoO. I do not agree with this at all and there are no rules anywhere to support that idea.
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Making an Attack of Opportunity: An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.
An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).
It seems pretty clear to me that an AoO is not some non-labeled action that allows you to make an attack or take an attack action.
It is expressly stated above that an AoO IS a single melee attack.
Therefore, any actions that are triggered by an attack, would also be triggered by an AoO attack, as long as they meet all criteria they need to meet to be triggered.
The rule actually does support my interpretation, and expressly doesn’t support yours.
It isn’t about whether a free action is allowed during an AoO or not. This isn’t about a free action at all really.
It’s about order of events and how triggered actions work (whether that triggered action is an AoO, another attack action, contingency spell, immediate action, or free action).
There are many free actions specifically defined that you can only do them on your turn. There are others that are specifically defined that you can only do them after a trigger allows them (such as the Grab ability). Just because the action is triggered by an AoO attack, doesn’t make it any less of a trigger. You still have to follow the order of events.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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There are no rules anywhere that support your stance either Lab_Rat.
The only thing we have to go on is the fact that an AoO is an attack, and these other actions are triggered on a successful attack.
So you are suggesting you can take an Attack of Opportunity while dazed or stunned?
If it's not an action... why not?
My position might not be entirely perfect, but it has the benefit of being the most consistent.
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There are no rules anywhere that support your stance either Lab_Rat.
The only thing we have to go on is the fact that an AoO is an attack, and these other actions are triggered on a successful attack.
So you are suggesting you can take an Attack of Opportunity while dazed or stunned?
If it's not an action... why not?
My position might not be entirely perfect, but it has the benefit of being the most consistent.
Read my next post.
If an AoO IS a single melee attack, it is an attack action, therefore it is an action.
But the point is, it is considered an attack. If it is an attack, everything that an attack can trigger should be triggered by an AoO.
archer loading bow listed as not action (CRB p 182)
again, where do you see free action not on another person's turn. Still waiting on a reference for that statement.
I can agree AoO are not actions, as says in the CRB, sure. By what it seems like your logic is, in darkness nobody could see...
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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Andrew: What you suggest is not consistent... pretty much anywhere.
Trip, Grab work, other free actions triggered by attacks don't, stunned and dazed don't work right... it's an oddball mix of weirdness. You say grab isn't a free action... but the actual rule quite clearly says it is, trip as well.
What prevents stunned or dazed creatures from taking attacks of opportunities?
"Stunned: A stunned creature drops everything held, can't take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)."
I understand that there isn't going to be any meeting of the minds here, but you could at least come up with a consistent framework here. Treating an AoO as an action is the simplest, most consistent way to treat it. It works the way most everyone plays the game without concocting a bizarre set of exceptions. At least the folks who say "No free actions during an AoO so no grab" have a consistent point of view (albeit one which allows stunned creatures to take attacks of opp... but it's consistent).
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archer loading bow listed as not action (CRB p 182)
Nocking an arrow is a non-action but drawing that arrow is a free-action according to the ammunition section of the equipment chapter in the CRB.
"Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), darts (for blowguns), or sling bullets (for slings and halfling sling staves). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading (as noted in their descriptions). Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost."
Hence the FAQ on Snap shot:
"Snap Shot: Can a character with Snap Shot (page 119) and Combat Reflexes make multiple attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon, assuming that loading the ranged weapon is a free action?
Yes. As long as you can reload your weapon with a free action you can reload your weapon as part of the ranged attack attack of opportunity you are making with the Snap Shot feat."
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Andrew: What you suggest is not consistent... pretty much anywhere.
Trip, Grab work, other free actions triggered by attacks don't, stunned and dazed don't work right... it's an oddball mix of weirdness. You say grab isn't a free action... but the actual rule quite clearly says it is, trip as well.
What prevents stunned or dazed creatures from taking attacks of opportunities?
"Stunned: A stunned creature drops everything held, can't take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)."
I understand that there isn't going to be any meeting of the minds here, but you could at least come up with a consistent framework here. Treating an AoO as an action is the simplest, most consistent way to treat it. It works the way most everyone plays the game without concocting a bizarre set of exceptions. At least the folks who say "No free actions during an AoO so no grab" have a consistent point of view (albeit one which allows stunned creatures to take attacks of opp... but it's consistent).
I have a feeling you are misunderstanding me.
An AoO is an attack.
An attack is an action.
Therefore an AoO is an action.
Any action, whether it is an attack action, immediate action, or free action that is triggered by an attack (which is an action) can be triggered by an AoO.
If you are stunned or dazed (or some other condition that can't take actions) you can't take an AoO. In those cases, this entire argument is moot.
My point is, that various free actions indicate when they can be done. Some say only on your turn. Some say after a successful attack.
Regardless, if the triggering condition is attack for the other action, the other action can follow an AoO.
I'm not seeing how this is an inconsistent framework.
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I don't know if AoO in PFS is an action or not. In 3.5 it was a non action (rules compendium).
This is not as simple as I thought...
Its very simple.
PFS doesn't rule this differently than the Pathfinder Core Rules.
An AoO is an Attack per my quote above.
An attack is an action.
Therefore an AoO is an action.
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I with Dennis on this one. Making AoO an action is the cleanest way to solve issues like he describes and also coincides with FAQ rulings on Snap Shot.
What I don't agree with is the idea that only certain free actions can be used on said AoO action. That specifically goes against the only rule regarding when you can and cannot take free actions.
As Andrew said...AoO is an action. Thus:
"You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally"
The rule seems pretty simple to me:
Am I doing an action or can take actions?
Yes = I can take free actions
No = I can't take free actions
At this point I am for the idea of grab working on an AoO but I am also for ANY free action working on an AoO.
Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down or takes a reckless action. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity.
What is the rule on free actions? Where is it?
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I with Dennis on this one. Making AoO an action is the cleanest way to solve issues like he describes and also coincides with FAQ rulings on Snap Shot.
What I don't agree with is the idea that only certain free actions can be used on said AoO action. That specifically goes against the only rule regarding when you can and cannot take free actions.
As Andrew said...AoO is an action. Thus:
"You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally"The rule seems pretty simple to me:
Am I doing an action or can take actions?
Yes = I can take free actions
No = I can't take free actionsAt this point I am for the idea of grab working on an AoO but I am also for ANY free action working on an AoO.
But you can't just define something as "an action" and then expect it to work like every other "action."
Otherwise you could Vital Strike on a Charge, or Spring Attack and Charge or other various combinations of actions that you can't do.
An AoO is not just "an action."
It is an attack and it is defined as such. An attack is a specific type of action.
The only other actions you could take on an AoO are actions that are directly tied to the attack
I think you are confusing action with turn.
When it is a character’s turn, during a round, you can take 1 swift action, 1 immediate action, 1 standard action, 1 or 2 move actions dependent on whether you take a standard action or not, and as many free actions as a GM deems appropriate.
But nowhere does it say that during an action you can take as many free actions as you want.
An AoO is what it is, an attack, which is a specific type of Standard action. The only other actions you can take when it is not your turn are free actions that the GM determines are appropriate, immediate actions, and free (or other type dependent on what it is) actions that are directly triggered by the attack action that is the AoO.
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What is the rule on free actions? Where is it?
Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down or takes a reckless action. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity.
This is a free attack, not a free action.
This is a free attack, not a free action.What is the rule on free actions? Where is it?
Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down or takes a reckless action. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity.
ack... being misheard all over... maybe just too tired.
The first quote is the text of AoO from the CRB.
People keep saying there is a rule on free attacks on your turn only, I have yet to see the rule and doc.
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...
But nowhere does it say that during an action you can take as many free actions as you want....
But it does.
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
Now the GM may limit the number of free actions taken but the rules specifically call out that if you are taking an action you can take free actions.
Is an AoO an action or is it not?