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The problem:
In my area, interest in PFS is still growing. However, it is still difficult to schedule more than one game on a PFS game day. As a result, if a new players wants to try the game, which happens fairly often, one of the tables (or the only table, depending on the weekend) runs a 1st tier game to accommodate the new player.
Why this is a problem:
Most people I know strongly dislike 1st level. First level has a large number of problems that are lessened by 2nd level and go mostly away by 3rd level, including:
• AC problems: If you look at the chart for building new monsters in the back of the Bestiaries, it recommends AC 12 for CR 1 creatures. There are over a dozen CR 1 creatures in the first Bestiary. Two of them have AC 12 or less: giant frog (AC 12) and horse (AC 11). Since most adventures don’t involve fighting giant frogs and horses exclusively, this means that PCs are fighting monsters with unusually high ACs. And most 1st level PCs won’t have AC 12 either. In my experience, most rounds of 1st level combat sound like this: Miss, miss, miss, miss, miss, new round.
• HP problems: On the odd hit, most characters have a 50/50 chance of surviving the damage. If anyone takes damage, the healer has very limited healing options, and the characters do not have enough gold to pack a few extra potions of cure light wounds.
• Low ranks: When I explain PFS to a new player, whether they are new to Pathfinder or just to Society, they are almost always excited by the faction missions. They read each faction individually, narrow their options down, ask questions, and look forward to participating in their own little slice of the adventure. Then when it comes time to roll for their faction mission, often they only have a 5% chance of success because the DCs are so high, and the skills required are not obviously tied to the faction. I have rarely seen a 1st level PC succeed at their faction mission, even when they do everything right but roll the right number, and I see a lot of players really disappointed in the game because of this. Not motivated, not disappointed that they failed, disappointed that the game failed them.
• The players with higher level characters (5th+) feel like they have retired those characters early.
Existing solutions:
• Pregens: Using pregens has always been an option for new players, and a much more viable one now that the NPC Codex introduced so many more options. For whatever reason, there is a stigma against running a pregen around here, and new players always ask if they can make their own characters instead. Ownership of character is a major reason I play RPGs, so I sympathize.
• First Steps: I often hear this suggestion. There are multiple problems with it in my local area. First Steps is great for new players. A mix of new players and old players hurts the fun of First Steps, especially with a majority old player party. It also suffers from virtually all of the 1st level problems.
My proposal:
Mentorship. An existing character can spend his time and resources mentoring young, inexperienced Pathfinders. A PFS character can spend his own Prestige Points to grant XP to a 1st level PC. For every two PP spend, the 1st level character gains 1 XP. A character cannot spend more than a number of Prestige Points equal to more than half his Fame mentoring character. A single character can mentor multiple 1st level characters, and a single 1st level character can have more than one mentor. Once a character reaches 2nd level, through mentoring, adventuring, or a combination, he cannot be mentored. A character who gains XP through mentoring gains a special Mentorship chronicle with no boon, gp, or PP on it, only XP. A character must be alive to mentor a 1st level character, who must also be alive.
Advantages of this proposal:
• Getting over the hump: A 2nd level character has double the hp and skill ranks of a 1st level character, the largest incremental increase of any level, bringing them closer to actualizing their character concept without overpowering them;
• New PFS players can participate in and have a better chance of surviving PFS scenarios that are balanced for optimizer players;
• It is flavourful.
I encourage everyone to pick apart any flaws they see in my proposal and share their thoughts.
Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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I think that your problem may be character builds, to be honest. Let's look at some of these...
1) Enemy AC and HP - Let's say that you're fighting a Ghoul, a fairly common level 1 enemy. It has 14 HP, which again is pretty common. Right off the bat, you have a better than 25% chance of contacting. A full BaB character with a +2 STR mod (which is pretty much minimum for barbarians and certain types of fighters) will have a +3 to hit. That's nearly a 50/50 chance of hitting. Not that bad. As for damage, many front-line characters will have a weapon that deals 1d8+3 minimum as a result. Casters are somewhat weaker in these tiers - they should rely on save or suck spells at first. Color spray can skip encounters.
2) Player AC and HP - It's trivial to get most level 1 characters to a minimum of 14 AC. Sure, a caster will only have about 6-8 HP - but those casters shouldn't be at the front anyway (with certain exceptions). A front-line character will easily get 10-14 HP starting out. Using our ghoul again, it does a maximum of 2d6+2 on a full round attack. Sure, it *might* be able to drop a character in a single hit, but that's a pretty big if. You also have to remember that there are other members in the party.
3) Faction missions - Faction missions are not always supposed to succeed. Campaign staff has said that it should be about 50/50. In practice, I'd say that it's 75% for newer scenarios and 90-95% on older ones. Right now, I am prepping two season 0-1 scenarios for my normal weekly game, plus a season 3 and 4 for a con that's coming up. The season 0-1 faction missions don't really have much in the way of skill checks (although one is still kinda hard). The season 3 has no skill checks. The season 4 (and another season 4 that I pulled up) has DCs between 15 and 20. Yes, if you don't have a particular knowledge, some of these can be difficult - but that's where the 50-75% comes in. If you do have a particular skill (most commonly, Diplomacy), it's not that hard. Let's say that you have +1 charisma, +3 from a class skill and +1 from a rank in Diplomacy - that's a +5, and reduces a DC 15 check to a 50/50 shot. Throw in rolls to assist, and it's fairly easy to do.
In conclusion, my recommendation would be to work on the characters at the table, since it seems like many may not be very well built, or the players may be forgetting bonuses. It's very easy for new players to forget that. Is your barbarian using rage? Is your wizard correctly calculating the DC on his color spray? Does your cleric remember that channel positive can be used to hurt undead? With new players, the GM can and should remind players of these things. While it does take a bit to get a core group of players out of tier 1-2, it's not *that* hard, and you can have some fun along the way.
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I think you have great ideas, though it sounds like you have a shortage of GM's. If you are wanting to grow the player base, I would suggest getting another player to volunteer to run a table of First Steps for the new players. I know it can get old, but in order to grow the players and the community everyone needs to pitch in, heck with GM credit, an experienced player can gain GM credit to build that GM baby. Otherwise along the lines of other scenarios, if you mix new and old characters, and the experienced players look out for the newbies, after a couple scenarios worth of gold and PP, the newbies should be able to hold their own. I am currently trying to grow PFS in my area, and I have offered to run the new players through First Steps on off nights in order to get them leveled up. I guess my point is that there are options without having to create a new rule(s)/mechanic.
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Thanks guys, but ““make a better character” and “you need more GMs” don’t solve the problem of “players in my area don’t like first level. Netopalis, I don’t want to take away player enthusiasm. I have a teaching background, and one of the things I know you can’t teach is enthusiasm. I had a player build a fighter, and when choosing a ranged weapon, he went with a crossbow. I could have told him that a longbow is better than a crossbow in every way, but he was really happy with his choice. Maybe he has fond memories of a crossbow’s portrayal in fantasy fiction he’s read, maybe he likes the visual, all I know is that he actively chose a crossbow. He would have more fun as a suboptimal character with the crossbow he chose than an optimal character with a composite longbow built for his Strength than I might suggest. Likewise, when I see a player get excited for faction missions, I could and maybe even should squash that enthusiasm early with a warning that this cool thing they really like the sound of is harder than they think and probably won’t pay off. I would say it like that, but that is how I would feel.
Hawkwen Agricola, I appreciate the insight, but one of the reasons I don’t post my concerns in the PFS section is because most of the advice I see is “work hard to change the naturally formed habits of the gamers in your area”. That advice hurts my enthusiasm for PFS. We don’t have a Venture officer in Montreal, and the reason I haven’t applied for the job is because I don’t have the time to commit to apply those kinds of changes. I want to show up and game, which is the attitude of the gamers in my area too. I’m even willing to GM, but I, the other GMs, and the regular players, are getting frustrated with constantly having to run the bottom tier.
Not everyone enjoys GMing. Telling people they have to earn the fun of playing by putting in time doing something they don’t want is the advice Montreal PFS enthusiasts have been getting for at least two years, and it continues to fail to work. So instead of just asking for advice, I thought of a potential solution.
Don’t take this to mean I don’t appreciate the advice, and the time you guys took to read and reply to my post. It’s just that we keep having the same problem and keep getting the same advice that we either have no one to execute or any attempt to execute it has failed. I’m looking for advice other than “make people GM” or basically “make your area like the areas the PFS rules assume.
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First of all: Ryan, I love Know Direction; many thanks for making the show! Keep up the good work!
I don't like the mentorship 'PP for XP' idea, but there are some other ways you could work round the issue of existing players not liking 1st level:
- Play We Be Goblins! OK, it's 1st level still, but most people are willing to overlook that, even on a second play-through, because it is such good fun.
- Play a tier 2-4 or 3-5 module (or Thornkeep level). Existing players can use their normal PCs, while the new player can use a 4th-level pregen, apply the credit to a new PC, and avoid 1st-level entirely.
- Have your existing players play down more freely. OK, a 4th or 5th level PC will walk through a season 0 scenario at tier 1-2, but a 3rd-level PC playing down with some newbies on a later season scenario may find more of a challenge, and also improve the survivability of the party. They may also be able to assist with faction missions.
- Have your existing players switch to slow track at 2nd level. They'll have a character in tier 1-2 for twice as long, meaning they delay having to start a new 1st level PC to play with the newbies.
I've had a similar problem in my local area with a constant stream of new players meaning we need to start at the bottom again, but generally people are happy at the idea of generating backup characters and trying out new options; the retraining rules brought in this season are another positive of playing at 1st level. However, it can be a little wearing to constantly playing tier 1-5 (or rarely 3-7), and it does mean I have ended up with characters of levels 6,5,4,4,3,2,1...
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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Ryan,
While I appreciate your concerns regarding first level being a bit boring, I want to warn you ahead of time - if your players' characters can't finish these scenarios at level 1, they're not going to fare any better when they hit higher levels. After you get out of the 1-5 and 1-7 scenarios, the game gets rather brutal. If the character has fond memories of a crossbow, as in your example, why not encourage that player to consider choosing a class that would make that crossbow effective?
As an example, I have a private investigator character in PFS. He does film noir narration and generally plays on those tropes. When I built him, I was a bit disappointed because the Detective archetype didn't really seem very good - I felt that a regular bard was better at being a detective than the Detective. Gunslinger didn't have many skill points or class skills in enough things. I ended up multiclassing, taking my first level in gunslinger and my second in Urban Ranger. Urban Ranger gave me a lot of detective-like skills, and got me several really useful abilities to boot. I mention this because I feel like this is a great example of how to build both an effective AND flavorful character. Start with whatever it is that's important to you, then build your character around that. The reason that RP-centric characters often complain about being weak in combat is because they don't think ahead regarding how to make their choices effective.
Of course, you don't need to be extremely optimized to survive in PFS. The table I GMmed for last night confirmed that. Nobody at the table had a wand of cure light wounds. The paladin had a -1 to hit. They were facing zombies and there were only two slashing weapons amongst the party. They were told the dungeon was trapped and still started indiscriminately flinging open doors. They managed to survive. Just barely survived, but they managed to survive.
Given what you told me, though, it sounds like you may be running newer adventures. The difficulty really steps up in seasons 3 and 4. If your characters are having trouble surviving and are very RP-centric, I would recommend looking into the following scenarios to get them through a couple of levels:
Murder on the Throaty Mermaid (One of my favorites!)
The Pallid Plague (Be careful with this one - it has potential to go poorly, but most parties don't have trouble with it.)
Assault on the Kingdom of the Impossible
Among the Living, and its sequel, Among the Dead
Silent Tide
The Decline of Glory
(The Throaty Mermaid is Season 2. All of the rest are season 0 or 1 - Pallid Plague, Kingdom and Among the Dead are Season 1, Among the Living, Silent Tide and The Decline of Glory are Season 0.)
Playing through a module is a great way to gain a level as well. For your group, I would highly recommend Murderer's Mark. It is very RP-heavy, and not terribly difficult. Also, as recommended above, We Be Goblins.
Hopefully, those help. I'm sorry I couldn't be more helpful in my first post.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I'm sure it won't solve all your problems, but this would help alleviate at least a few of your concerns.
You mentioned not wanting to squelch newbies' enthusiasm by showing them that the thematic elements they like (such as crossbows) are sub-optimal. Well, you'll find that the linked post gives lots of tips that work for pretty much any concept, not just builds that use the mathematically "best" options.
Hope that helps. :)
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Let me illustrate what happens more often than not when we schedule events on our FLGS’s Facebook PFS page.
1. Someone posts about a date they would like to play, usually about two weeks in advance;
2. A GM offers to GM;
3. A couple more people show interest, including at least one veteran who would like a higher level game;
4. GM says “we’ll see” or picks a higher level scenario;
5. Someone else says they want to play, but they only have a 1st level character or they’re brand new to PFS;
6. The GM asks if anyone else can GM, or if the veteran doesn’t mind playing down;
7. Sometimes we get the second GM, sometimes we don’t. Even if we stand firm and say “this time, we’re not forcing the vets to play down for the rookies, the vets have been asking us for months to play higher level games and their wants continue to be put second”
8. The day of, we get some other new players or 1st level characters who want to join, and we rarely have a big enough group for two tables of six. At most, we have a table of four and a table of three or four. Assuming we got the second GM (usually the store owner). At least one vet usually has to play down anyway.
Victor Zajic, if by abuse you mean there are more people that could falsify mentoring chronicles, I don’t see who would do that but not falsify an adventure chronicle and get both the levels and the gold. I suppose the character spending the PP wouldn’t have any incentive to keep the proper paperwork about those spent points.
Paz, we could schedule a We Be Goblins, that’s something I haven’t run in a while and think would be fun, but that needs to be scheduled. For games with new walk-ins, pregens are a solution, and I will try to insist on their use from now on, but that only lets us handle brand new players.
Netopalis, I will look into those scenarios, but I tend stick to the newest season to stay informed about the metaplot, and because they’re built with all the factions. But mostly, I just wish I could run something other than 1st level scenarios. I want to GM, I want to have fun with people having fun. I find 1st level hurts fun all around the table. Most of my home groups either start about 1st, or rush through 1st. There are ways around 1st level problems, and they make the game more work to run. I don’t play this game for the work. And the amount of PFS I’ve been involved in has decreased because I am just so tired of 1st level.
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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Well, the reason that I recommended those scenarios is that they are either very easy or very roleplay heavy, or both. One of those scenarios can be finished without rolling initiative. That should remove most of the issues you described. I'm not sure what other first level problems you are having other than combat effectiveness. I could definitely see your characters walking from Severing Ties or Rise of the Goblin Guild very frustrated, though, if they are a table of all new players and the GM is playing a little bit hardball.
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pregens allow you to handle people other than brand new players.
If the table is announced at a certain level the newer players will just have to wait a while to get their credit.
I know exactly what you're dealing with, but sometimes you have to choose.
I manage a store, we have monthly game days on saturday's and weekly PFS on Wednesdays.
The unfortunate truth is that more experienced players tend to have to either make new characters, play down, or take up the mantle of GM. If that doesn't happen, the newer players will fade out pretty quickly.
Be patient as well, and try valiantly to recruit a couple more new players, enough to get a full table of newer peoples. That way your experienced players can play what they want, and your inexperienced players can still play.
I know "recruit more people" is harder then it sounds, but if you talk to your VL/VC they might know people that are interested in starting up with a fairly consistent group of other start ups :).
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Ryan
The problems are not new. They appear with groups between 1 and 2 tables that slowly grow and have high fluctuation.
The only way forward is to stay firm and at some stage just say NO. Your mentoring won't help at all if they are then stuck on level 2. So you mentor up to 3 and it starts again.
I even once showed some mathmatical models that could proof that you are better off to strictly enforce a alternating high / low as accepting randomly who comes to the game.
It is hard to say NO for the first time - well - actually you won't say no - you say - come back next week (or play a higher tier pre-gen). Players who really want to play will adapt.
I drove 1 1/2 hours to my first game and then waited 6 weeks for my next one. And to enable the next one I volunteered to GM and become organizer at a con.
It might not feel that way - but occasionally saying no can be the better solution.
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I know this is often considered heretical, but new players should not be allowed to hijack the game by simple virtue of showing up. Not all scheduled games are going to be for all available players. Yes, bringing in more players is a good thing (and if they are buying the books, flip maps, t-shirts, etc., it ends up being great for Paizo), but frustrating the existing base leads to a diminishing of said base.
There is also a game mechanic in place that addressed a PF mentoring or sponsoring another character. As PFS does not even allow inter-character wealth transfers, I think the idea of PP expenditure for XP is something very unlikely to happen.