Goblinworks Executive Founder
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All MMO's that I have played have the base functionality where you can see everyone's name all the time. There are usually options to hide certain names if you want but this doesn't specifically limit you from knowing exactly who everyone is.
I believe there is a lot of potential for a system that allows players to disguise themselves not only graphically but for the intents of gathering information on the player and knowing who is who.
I touched on this briefly some time ago and I've seen it mentioned here and there in a number of other threads. So I would like to get the discussion started and see what other people's thoughts are.
My proposal for anonymity is to make it so that names are not something that all players automatically see. Instead have a system where you can *spot* a player or an NPC and get details about them. You could even potentially base this off of some knowledge skill that your character has. Whether you gather information or not you have another option to apply a *mask* to the PC/NPCs name. This can be a name (within some defined character limit) that the player can give to that PC/NPC.
In addition to this system of applying a *mask* to the PC/NPC name there would be some sort of introduction mechanic so that players could essentially introduce themselves to another player and thus actually have a defined name for that player. In addition to the introduction mechanic there could be an option to *bluff* your name as to provide a name other than what your true character name is.
Finally, social organizations such as chartered companies and settlements could have an optional setting that allowed all members of that social group to be able to automatically link up names so that players within the same organization can still easily identify themselves and keep from people *pretending* to be a member of that organization to other members of the same organization.
Pros
1) Greater immersion as you don't automatically know everyone's name in existence.
2) Allows for more RP opportunities.
3) Utilize *soft* skills that you don't generally see in games such as knowledge, bluff, etc.
4) Make bounty hunting/assasinations a more in-depth process then just running around looking for someone with a certain name tag.
Cons
1) You actually have to spend time defining NPCs and getting to know players (Could also be a benefit)
2) Small potential for abuse where players could pretend to be someone else
3) How do you handle multiple characters for the same player do they all have to define PCs/NPCs or does it link for an account?
Another aspect to anonymity is being able to disguise. With this you would have the potential to actually disguise yourself to look other than yourself. This could be reliant on skills like *disguise*, *bluff*, etc. The functionality would basically provide a player the opportunity to appear like someone else and effectively change their name that they introduce themselves as as well as providing different information for when someone *spots* them to discern information about them.
Pros
1) Provide lots of opportunity for RP, people could disguise themselves as other things for events and making quests for people.
2) Allows bandits a way to try and hide while going out places and not be automatically identifiable.
3) Utilize *soft* skills that you don't generally see in games such as disguise, bluff, etc.
4) Make bounty hunting/assasinations a more in-depth process then just running around looking for someone with a certain name tag.
Cons
1) Potential for abuse where players could pretend to be someone else.
I think the two above system could create a lot of meaningful interaction between players and lots of opportunities for RP and ability to play a bandit or a spy. Also making bounties and other similar contracts more meaningful where you'll have to actually hunt down the player and identify them before you kill them rather than just running around looking for a nameplate over someones head.
I'm sure there are some other cons that don't come to mind directly but that's why I wanted to bring this up for discussion so that could get worked out and if enough people think this is something they would like to see we can crowdforge a good system to give to the developers for ideas.
Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe it would be good to show no player names at all unless they agree to share it with you. Attacking someone would be one way of ensuring your name is shared, but also by way of introduction and explicit permission entailing conversation between the two players in which they agree to share names.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Feel free to read previous discussion on this topic at "Hello, my name is ____."
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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So I read through most of that and it looks like generally people would like to see a system for anonymity but there are concerns around reporting.
I think similar points addressed there where even if you don't have a players name since you could apply *masks* to players for the names you call them this would link to their account ID so you could still do things like reporting the player and of course you would still have the option to click-and-report.
Most of what I gathered from the previous thread was RP immersion. However, the one big thing I saw missing in that discussion was some of the meaningful player interactions particularly around bounties/assassinations and bandits/spies. If everyone knows everyone's name and there is no potential to hide your identity I think it really reduces the fun in a bounty/assassination vs bandits/spies system since really the only thing you have to do is figure out where someone is and wait around until you actually see someone walking around with that name.
With some of the proposals above this makes it more interesting for both sides as now you have to find where someone is, actually determine if the person is the person you are looking for and then do what you are going to do. Additionally, it allows for bandits/spies to try and conceal themselves and slip into settlements and the like and blend in bringing the focus in-game rather then limiting it to having to have another character out of game to do these things.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Its nice to see Mark Kalmes is already considering this.
My favorite memories in UO where seeing a name required doubling clicking a player and then inspecting them while they were still in visible range. A surprising number of players did not inspect players names and went by appearance instead. I used to keep 3 or 4 disguises in my bag to switch to once I killed a player.
I will research this more tonight, because its a good idea.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Yeah, I think that the biggest pit-fall to a system with anonymity and disguise is the whole "Ok, what about *bad* people who you need to report."
I think as long as a player can assign some name to a character that is then linked to their *player ID* whatever that may be you could simply report the name you made up for them which would then report the actual player it is linked to.
@Being I don't think attacking someone should give you there name. I mean if you got mugged on the streets the guys isn't going to say "Oh by the way my name is..."
However, if you have the capability to assign a name so that when you see that player again (assuming they aren't in disguise, or if they are you have a high enough *spot* skill to see past the disguise) you will recognize them by the name you gave them "Fing Mugger".
One thing I would like to add that was brought up in the other thread was the tie in to reputation. That could be an interesting mechanic where once you crossed a certain threshold for reputation (either good or evil) you're name would be viable by all people (again unless you were disguised).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes to this - I'd love not to know a name unless told, and I'd prefer nobody know mine. It kills RP for me when everyone automatically knows each other by name.
The idea of bounties for random murderers would be changed by this, too. Perhaps a photographic (perhaps a stylized portrait made by all characters on creation) bounty poster, with whatever 'mask' name was chosen by the victim upon being assaulted. Those who recognize the face would see the name they know in addition to the one posted by the victim. (And if you know the murderer's real name, perhaps you'll get a reward for revealing it.)
This way, anybody (on the allowed list, obviously) can take on the bounty and with a sufficient 'spot' check will recognize the murderer from the bounty photo and therefore be able to collect the bounty.
Now I'd just want an in-game excuse for picture-perfect bounties... perhaps it's simply 'drawn up' by an NPC sketch-artist when you file the bounty.
If possible I'd like this to reflect the appearance of the murderer at the time of the assault, to include any disguises they might have been using - but I don't know how easy that might be to implement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not sure what to think about this over all, it's a neat idea but causes problems.
Another neat aspect of it though is it would put more weight on guild/kingdom colors, tabards, and maybe banners. Players will need to dress in their affiliations colors so that they can tell friend from foe. At the same time though, it'll allow for means of infiltration via wearing the enemies colors. It'll be interesting.
I think in the end this will have to be decided by play testing more then anything.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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@Keign Yeah whether there is the additional mechanics of actually having a description or simply it's assumed (as part of the game mechanics) that you get a description then you could hunt down the player through whatever bounty networks you have/hunting skills you have.
Then when you find the general area of the target you actually have to either *gather information* from other players or maybe even NPC's to help narrow it down to the right person, unless of course they aren't disguised in which case you would see their name over their head or whatever the case may be (to simulate that you spotted the character merely off of description (or drawing)
@Vancent I agree I think it could bring some real immersion even past the aspect of RPing having to introduce yourself.
The biggest issue I can think of and has been mentioned previously was that of reporting *bad* players, which I think could be resolved with some ideas above.
I would be curious what other issues you might think of (I'm sure there are others) so we can try and address them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really like the idea of not knowing everybody´s name and affiliation, and not having a name to everybody see over my head.
I Also like the idea of not allowing people to have names like XxXStupid4ssXxX and similar stuff, even if that names are not displayed over their heads. It is very, very, very imersion breaking.
My only concern is about the viability of the bounty system without knowing the name of the guy who killed you. Some ideas were presented here, such as knowing instantly the name of who attacked you, but I´m not sure I´m happy with that, as it would not make much sense. How to explain that? So the bandit tell you his name before (or after) killing and looting you? But, on the other hand, it can be technically necessary, I could live with that, but I would be happyer with another solution.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hmm, here's an idea.
You're already going to have a reputation score, but currently it only represents if you have a good reputation or a bad reputation. What they could do is add another aspect of it, representing how well known you are, we'll call it renown.
Most players will start off with zero renown, but every time they perform an action that affects their reputation, like fulfilling contracts or killing players, or perform an amazing deed, like slaying a dragon, or founding a city, their renown goes up.
Every time you see a PC you will perform a passive gather information or knowledge local check, the DC of which will be determined by their renown, the higher the renown the lower the DC. If you pass the check then you recognize the PC and know their name, once you know it you know it forever. You could perform the check again maybe once per in-game hour, so the longer you hang around with someone the more likely you are recognize them. Friending someone or partying with them will also give you their name.
Disguise checks can override this though, even if you've ID'd the person previously. When encountering someone in disguise, you first have to beat their disguise check with a passive or active perception check to recognize that it is a disguise and then succeed on a passive gather info or knowledge local check, DC determined by their renown but also modified by their disguise, to figure out who they are specifically.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My only concern is about the viability of the bounty system without knowing the name of the guy who killed you.
I think it would be fairly trivial to allow a player to right-click a descriptor in a log in order to reference the unnamed character. Ryan has already talked about having useful logs that tell you who you've grouped with previously, and even what happened.
@Vancent, I really like your Renown system. This ties into a discussion Mbando started: Brainstorming for Non-Combat PvP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, I'm not sure about getting a notification, with my system there won't really be a specific point at which you will no longer be anonymous. I would say that when you go into a menu to look at what your renown level is it should also show you what the current DC to ID you is.
With this system, the longer you play the higher your renown will generally be, high "level" long standing characters will be pretty much instantly recognizable. Newer players meanwhile, will just be faces in a crowd.
In theory though, if you really want to remain anonymous then you could live the life of a hermit and quietly grind away, being careful not to do anything too amazing. Otherwise, if you don't want people to recognize you but still want to be amazing then get a really good disguise.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The boys always told me back in the mountains I didn't want to make myself a target on the skyline. You might have noticed I have a little trouble keeping out of things, so I'm trying to school myself the best I can to at least hide a little better for a little longer.
It would be a good counter for vets to have something like renown to help keep them in check.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Vancent, add a slow renown degrade and have it local (hex or even hex +1) range and I fully endorse your idea.
In fact, the size of the renown could also determine the size of the locality, a big renown sort of "spills over" into neighboring hexes. And interacting with someone with a big renown impacts your own more.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Great ideas, Kit. I like it.
The more distant a kingdom the less likely you'll be recognized. Each area will have it's own local heroes and villains. Only the greatest of the greats will be recognized across the world.
This will encourage people looking to hire bad guys to seem them out in distant exotic places. Similarly, bad guys will want to stay away from major population centers and major targets to keep their renown down there. Should make things more interesting and organically create clearer safe zones and wild zones.
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Lol you know, they could give us a mini version of the character creation program and let us create a portrat of the criminal. The. Once we are satisfied, click done and get a poster showing a headshot of who attacked us. It would be cool to see how close we come to getting the right image. Then a bounty hunter would have a copy to match to the suspect.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A fun idea, but a bit over complicated. It also probably reduces the chances of bounties being completed and justice getting carried out. In MMOs you rarely get a good look at anyone's face, and even with dozens of options to mix and match there is still going to be thousands of people who look identical.
I'm still a bit stumped at coming up to a really good solution to including anonymity and disguises but not letting griefing get out of hand.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As I said elsewhere though I'd like notification if my renown removes the shelter of anonymity so I can try harder to stay off the skyline.
You don't want people to know your character's name without someone telling them, but you want to know what everyone thinks about you without having to ask them?
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Goblin Squad Member
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As I said elsewhere though I'd like notification if my renown removes the shelter of anonymity so I can try harder to stay off the skyline.You don't want people to know your character's name without someone telling them, but you want to know what everyone thinks about you without having to ask them?
Actually I think this is logical. At some point, unmet NPCs will begin to recognize you. Since our NPCs are stupid rote programs, this notification simulates this effect. Maybe to be more "realistic" one could get the notification once the line has been crossed, then they can know to "lay low" for awhile if that is what they want.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would love to see "Glamered" armor available. But not to wear full plate that looks like a "chainmail bikini" as discussed in the skimpy thread, I think it would be kind of cool to play something like a cleric in full plate (with the feat of course) but look like you are wearing a monk's robe to any people without true seeing.
Glamered
A suit of armor with this ability appears normal. Upon command, the armor changes shape and form to assume the appearance of a normal set of clothing. The armor retains all its properties (including weight) when glamered. Only a true seeing spell or similar magic reveals the true nature of the armor when disguised.
Moderate illusion; CL 10th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, disguise self; Price +2,700 gp.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Lol you know, they could give us a mini version of the character creation program and let us create a portrat of the criminal. The. Once we are satisfied, click done and get a poster showing a headshot of who attacked us. It would be cool to see how close we come to getting the right image. Then a bounty hunter would have a copy to match to the suspect.
'ceptin most ppl will just work from a screenshot and get it spot-on :D
Also giving the limited variety of appearances in a game like this there may be big issues with mistaken identity.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I think the easiest solution is play on the *common folk* aspect where basically you report simply set a bounty for that player that you made your own name for that links to the actual character ID.
What happens from *lore* perspective is you actually went to a NPC scetch artist who draws up a wanted poster and then takes it to the bounty hunter you choose.
The bounty hunter maybe gets a description of the target and a name you give them then they have to actually track down the target. Of course there will likely be trainable skills that a bounty hunter gets to help them track their target but that's another topic completely.
While things like actually having a photo of the character that is being hunted is cool there's no reason we can't use our imaginations as to the behind the scenes aspect to how a bounty hunter actually gets a bounty.
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Goblin Squad Member
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People on the street that generally don't make a big deal if they recognize someone that they don't know personally, unless that person is *especially* famous/infamous.
This might be true, but at the same time one can usually notice the glint of recognition in the eyes of others.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This might be true, but at the same time one can usually notice the glint of recognition in the eyes of others.People on the street that generally don't make a big deal if they recognize someone that they don't know personally, unless that person is *especially* famous/infamous.
And maybe that glint is just them eying your bulging ... coinpurse. ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would love to see lack of names on people except if they are on your friend list or party or some such.
I love the idea of being able to put on a disgues and spy on people. Perhaps with high enough skill you can create a fake name so that when you reveal your name people see the fake name.
However if someone can see through it they would be see something like.
Spys's real name (FAKE name)
it would be up to that person to decide to out the spy (and ruin the charade) or using the spy to feed bad info.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The entire premise behind my company is to be able to toggle our company name off. The only time anyone would see our company name, is when we are signing a contract or collecting on a contract. Even then, I was planning on only about 20% of my officers actually serving in that function.
I like the idea of not showing character names, it is already possible in The Secret World. It would be very immersive to actually interact with someone to learn their name.
Very cool ideas here, hope some of them find their way into the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This might be true, but at the same time one can usually notice the glint of recognition in the eyes of others.People on the street that generally don't make a big deal if they recognize someone that they don't know personally, unless that person is *especially* famous/infamous.
And maybe that glint is just them eying your bulging ... coinpurse. ;)
I know, right...!?
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Goblin Squad Member
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In Curse of the Crimson Throne the local hero Blackjack was known by everyone on sight because he was much discussed and described in the local taverns. However, the person who was Blackjack (sans costume) was not so recognized. The people in a particular town may have heard of a valiant paladin who killed the goblin chief that threatened the hex. But would people from the next hex be able to recognize them on the street just from the stories? In his home town it is more likely that, over time, the character has been pointed out to friends enough times that he is indeed recognized on sight by the local populous. It looks like a more complex problem than just a renown value.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We already covered the issue of localization, Harad. As well as disguises. Furthermore, the Gather Information skill reflects that you actually actively seek out information on an area. The Knowledge Local skill reflects knowledge about an area that you have previously learned or research.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Then there is True Seeing - and various divination spells.
Not to mention all those druidy "talk to shrubbery" abilities - "Hey! Any of you trees and flowers seen a nefarious bad guy lurking around here?"
It is all a bit academic until we know exactly what gets implemented in the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well of course, almost every single topic in this forum is purely theoretical at this point.
As for True Seeing and other spells in abilities, obviously those will have to be considered too. I'm too tired to concentrate on that right now though. I am however all for anything that give abilities more use and depth.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the idea and would even would not mind the problems. Thing is I see this as a tool that is ripe for people to abuse.
Druid>Badger wildshape> bait attack from PC to flag as criminal. Can you imagine if the infinite bounties just to grief a "good" character?
Mistaken identity even if wanted posters had a name. How would the hunter know if it was the right target or just a similar face?
Numerous forum shenanigans from combat logs, spy names, and I'm sure plenty of other things.
I think you could limit some of this by turning off nameplates once you left a PvP-safe zone. This way if in a PvE area you are not hidden and you have to own up to your actions. Once you left the PvE area everyone should be prepared for all this and much more.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Abuse is the main problem we're worried about.
Also, the only PVP-safe zone will be the very starting area. The entire rest of the world will be full PVP and full PVE all the time. Everywhere.
I'll try to find the post I read earlier but getting late and I'll forget by tomorrow (getting too old). The post by CEO seemed to make the Pathfinder setup similar to Eve sec ratings. So ya most of the game will be PvP area like 00, but they seemed to have high and low sec areas planned as a transition for players.
Sure these areas will be much smaller than the rest of game but it did not seem to be "the very starting areas" only either. I seemed to remember areas with roaming guards that attacked flagged criminals and some areas will have faster or slower response time. I bet we'll hear that some places will only have guards at watchtowers near the entrances to the hex but no roaming. I hope you played Eve and see how this is pretty much how Eve does it. Seeing how the CEO came from CCP it makes sense.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Abuse is the main problem we're worried about.
Also, the only PVP-safe zone will be the very starting area. The entire rest of the world will be full PVP and full PVE all the time. Everywhere.
I'll try to find the post I read earlier but getting late and I'll forget by tomorrow (getting too old). The post by CEO seemed to make the Pathfinder setup similar to Eve sec ratings. So ya most of the game will be PvP area like 00, but they seemed to have high and low sec areas planned as a transition for players.
Sure these areas will be much smaller than the rest of game but it did not seem to be "the very starting areas" only either. I seemed to remember areas with roaming guards that attacked flagged criminals and some areas will have faster or slower response time. I bet we'll hear that some places will only have guards at watchtowers near the entrances to the hex but no roaming. I hope you played Eve and see how this is pretty much how Eve does it. Seeing how the CEO came from CCP it makes sense.
This thread ...
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p8bg?Kickstarter-Community-Thread-Player-vs-Pl ayer#1