Goblin Squad Member
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@Being The question of which Alignments cause which other Alignments to have an Alignment shift has been danced around a lot, if you have a good flowchart or something that illustrates your thoughts it would certainly help move the discussion along. It's what I'll probably resort to to actually give some visual context to the issue.
Also, I really don't think an Evil by Association mechanic would in any way provide an elegant solution. Given the dungeon example from earlier, the probable result would have been a personal relationship that transcends Alignment and not an Alignment slip at all. On the other hand, Alignment Decay would be in effect so there's always that. But that won't cause a shift, regardless of amount of time without actions to prompt it.
It's also likely to be a resource drain that hurts game performance, it would be like having a worldwide AOE going off every few seconds (at the slowest) with a different effect on every single character.
Doesn't the autopaladin alignment selection thing feel just a little bit out of whack?
example:If it is always a good action for a good character to kill any evil character, won't griefers simply select your artificially good alignment so they can kill evil characters with impunity?
It does seem a bit, well maybe unrefined would be a good way to put it?
I've been pondering what you touch on above and I'm not sure that slaying a random person, who has done nothing to you, should go unpunished simply because of a opposing alignment. Oh sure if the person is engage in a evil act that's different.
I could easily see a paladin casting detect evil in a crowded marketplace, seeing a evil character shopping and attacking them. This just doesn't seem right.
We wouldn't be allowed to do that in our lawful (and I do mean lawFULL) republic. What do you all think about this?
Hi Ross! Glad to see you guys around the forums ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Being The question of which Alignments cause which other Alignments to have an Alignment shift has been danced around a lot, if you have a good flowchart or something that illustrates your thoughts it would certainly help move the discussion along. It's what I'll probably resort to to actually give some visual context to the issue.
Also, I really don't think an Evil by Association mechanic would in any way provide an elegant solution. Given the dungeon example from earlier, the probable result would have been a personal relationship that transcends Alignment and not an Alignment slip at all. On the other hand, Alignment Decay would be in effect so there's always that. But that won't cause a shift, regardless of amount of time without actions to prompt it.
It's also likely to be a resource drain that hurts game performance, it would be like having a worldwide AOE going off every few seconds (at the slowest) with a different effect on every single character.
If they went with alignment decay it would probably have to be tracked in your character data on the server, but the bits exchanged for it would be a minimal part of the character's data stream (also containing location, combat status, etc.) so it shouldn't be troublesome. I think it would have to be server-side rather than clientside due to the incessantly chaotic unlawful tendency of some players to load their dice. Performance hit should be trivial.
I don't know whether we could swap flow charts in here: probably have to point links to outside repositories and it would really have to be significant for me to go that far.
But according to what we have discussed so far (but trying to keep my pet speculations to a minimum outside the scope of the concept of alignment decay or attrition) then the 'natural' attrition should be very gradual and easily countered. For the Lawful Good a tip here, a donation there, and especially activities like prayer, should counter normal alignment attrition. I would think for a Druid communing with the oaks, walking in the woods, and meditation should center the True Neutral. For the Chaotic Evil I should think sneaking, hiding, and hanging out at the tavern would be things that offset 'normal' attrition.
Basically, alignment decay comes with not attending to what you should be doing, and refocusing yourself on the devotions of your alignment would bolster it. Being sedentary weakens your body, and exercise renews your strength. So too with alignment: without exercise it wastes away, and with dedication it improves.
So if a Paladin should make a mistep, and is aware that an opportunity to feed the hungry or clothe the homeless was skipped, then acts of contrition should gradually overcome that failure and restore whatever loss was suffered.
As to which alignments cause how much shift... I would think that adjacent alignments would have a different effect than an extreme. If being in the proximity of a CE character would accellerate the alignment decay of an LG character, then similar proximity to a TN character should be about half that of a CE character.
Killing a TN would incur twice the alignment hit of killing a CE character (but killing an extreme opposite out of the blue should still cause a hit for the LG, but killing another LG would be a massive hit if it were similarly our-of-the-blue. Like a TN killing squared.
Back to proximity alignment shifts: If our loyal Paladin were packed into a room of twenty CE characters his alignment decay might get perilous. What he could do is spam a '/silent prayer' slash command at every opportunity to counter it. This would also fit the role.
So specifically for lawful good alignment I'm arriving at a concept something like sin: some faults are venal, for which an act of contrition and prayer might bring sufficient renewal, but a 'mortal' act is significantly more serious, and should require greater acts to counterbalance it.
So a paladin would wish to always seek the practice of good virtues such as faith, hope, charity, bravery, obedience, justice, etc. if he or she is to arrive at the pinnacle of the Lawful Good.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I dislike the idea of "Alignment Decay". It's premised on the assumption that the default state is neutral. But then, how does True Neutral decay? Or are they going to be rewarded for inaction? This seems more like a tax (whether coin (oh you didn't feed those homeless orphans) or time (oh, you didn't murderhobo those homeless orphans)) on having an alignment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you work to get physically fit you can become buff. Take a sedentary job and forget to exercise and you will get a pot belly. You start out just a kid: to get buff you have to work at it. Don't exercise and you get flabby. I realize you don't like it, but it does seem to make a bunch of sense to me. But you don't like it: I get that. I'd rather be buff without exercise too.
If they went with alignment decay it would probably have to be tracked in your character data on the server, but the bits exchanged for it would be a minimal part of the character's data stream (also containing location, combat status, etc.) so it shouldn't be troublesome. I think it would have to be server-side rather than clientside due to the incessantly chaotic unlawful tendency of some players to load their dice. Performance hit should be trivial.
I don't know whether we could swap flow charts in here: probably have to point links to outside repositories and it would really have to be significant for me to go that far.
But according to what we have discussed so far (but trying to keep my pet speculations to a minimum outside the scope of the concept of alignment decay or attrition) then the 'natural' attrition should be very gradual and easily countered. For the Lawful Good a tip here, a donation there, and especially activities like prayer, should counter normal alignment attrition. I would think for a Druid communing with the oaks, walking in the woods, and meditation should center the True Neutral. For the Chaotic Evil I should think sneaking, hiding, and hanging out at the tavern would be things that offset 'normal' attrition.
Basically, alignment decay comes with not attending to what you should be doing, and refocusing yourself on the devotions of your alignment would bolster it. Being sedentary weakens your body, and exercise renews your strength. So too with alignment: without exercise it wastes away, and with dedication it improves.
So if a Paladin should make a mistep, and is aware that an opportunity to feed the hungry or clothe the homeless was skipped, then acts of contrition should gradually overcome that failure and restore whatever loss was suffered.
So specifically for lawful good alignment I'm arriving at a concept something like sin: some faults are venal, for which an act of contrition and prayer might bring sufficient renewal, but a 'mortal' act is significantly more serious, and should require greater acts to counterbalance it.
So a paladin would wish to always seek the practice of good virtues such as faith, hope, charity, bravery, obedience, justice, etc. if he or she is to arrive at the pinnacle of the Lawful Good.
I could see alignment decay if it were so easy to counter. As long as you take some action that your character would normally do, your fine.
For the Chaotic Evil I should think sneaking, hiding, and hanging out at the tavern would be things that offset 'normal' attrition.
What! Sneaking and hiding are chaotic evil acts?? Hanging out in taverns? :P. it's obvious you don't play a thief haha. I get your point, but perhaps stomping on puppies or beating up the elderly would be more evil then having an ale at the Angry Gnoll taven ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you work to get physically fit you can become buff. Take a sedentary job and forget to exercise and you will get a pot belly. You start out just a kid: to get buff you have to work at it. Don't exercise and you get flabby. I realize you don't like it, but it does seem to make a bunch of sense to me. But you don't like it: I get that. I'd rather be buff without exercise too.
I'm not sure that philosophical outlook really equates to something like muscle mass. It would make more sense to introduce Skill Decay under that logic. Haven't used any mage skills in a few months? Hmm, looks like you're getting rusty at it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Dario We revised it so that the natural state becomes whatever you've worked at and succeeded at Aligning yourself as. If you achieve Good, you no longer decay back to Neutral, but to a sort of fledgling Good status. If Neutral encompasses 99 points of Good and 99 points of Evil (each of which cancels out the other before accumulating) Then at 100 points of Good for example, you would no longer be Neutral + 100 Good, you would be Good + 0 Good. Or something to that effect. You've reached a plateau and no longer need to worry about back sliding before your next big climb. The Decay of a character with Evil + 100 Evil would just gradually return to Evil + 0 Evil over time if no actions were taken to counteract this Decay.
@Being The /silentprayer thing is a good RP thing, it really could manifest as a number of things, but that would be a characteristically devout practice. It strikes me as a whole lot of busy work though. Alignment Decay is meant to replace the notion of Alignment by Association. The notion of the Paladin that he is tainted for having been around so many foul beings without slaying them all is, in my opinion, all in his head. He may very well feel compelled to wash away this "sin" or taint by redoubling his devotions for a time, but ultimately he shouldn't be any worse (in terms of Absolute Alignment) for the wear just having been around another alignment, in direct opposition or not. I would say AbA leads to something along the lines of:
Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
Which I think is a bit outside of the context of PF/DnD Alignment.
Regarding the minimal resources to track these things, what you described I believe was my suggestion of Decay. What I described was the tracking of AbA, that would need to keep track of who is where on a very regular basis. As either a worldwide blanket snapshot or individual snapshots that could be done less frequently but still another calculation being done on every single character at pretty regular intervals. Programming aside, I think I've made a good summation of why AbA is probably not something that would fit well in this world. At least as is currently described.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Then you haven't ever lapsed in your devotions I take it, and have always remained adamantly pure in your dedication, just as you were when you were ten, Dario.
Never slept in of a Sunday?
Beliefs decay unpracticed.
Not so. Philosophical outlook is not an act of devotion.
If I feel giving food to the poor is something I should do, I don't feel less inclined to do it just because I don't come across any for months at a time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... in the case that you are present and choose inaction, that would be a course charted to Neutrality. Does that seem more in line with what you would expect?Not really.
I really think it needs to be the case that your alignment only slips when you are explicitly refusing to do the Good that's right in front of you. Failing to go out and find Good to do shouldn't count.
In essence, I really believe it needs to be based on actions and not just time.
It's not the alignment of the participants that makes it an assassination, it's how you go about it.With respect to Assassination in PFO, we don't know that yet.
I originally suggested alignment decay due to Andius's experiences in other games, in which the 'goodest' characters would kill one random person for every 10 persons they helped, since they already had max alignment and could do so with little consequence.
I also assumed that decay would only happen in-game. I think having decay affect alignment only to the 'cusp' might be appropriate. Though really, I'd prefer if doing something good were as simple as donating a sum of coin to a local church; a person could do that in the same time they would normally use to chat for a few minutes while their alignment was decaying.
RE: Assassination. I thought assassination was politically-motivated killing. For instance, the potential assassinations of Hitler, and the successful assassination of Osama Bin Laden.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Location of your character yes, not that of every character around you (getting increasingly more costly in populous areas).. in metropolitan areas just having it be a single global snapshot calculation would be more efficient I believe. That's not saying much. It's still an unnecessary cost IMO for something that doesn't fit well with the mythos of PF Alignment.
You have OOP to thank for the bloat. =)
If anyone has more thoughts on the AD vs AbA or even AD + AbA systems, I'm sure there's an aspect we haven't looked at yet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Then you haven't ever lapsed in your devotions I take it, and have always remained adamantly pure in your dedication, just as you were when you were ten, Dario.
Never slept in of a Sunday?
Beliefs decay unpracticed.
Not so. Philosophical outlook is not an act of devotion.
If I feel giving food to the poor is something I should do, I don't feel less inclined to do it just because I don't come across any for months at a time.
Okay, then you are better than most human beings. I hope you will be as sure of your belief in thirty years.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Kakafika That suggests an incredibly high rate of decay. The killing of a random bystander just because they can is certainly not in the spirit of Good alignment, and would have immediate Criminal and Bounty consequences besides. Not exactly a viable activity 'just because we can', and that's before we come up with creative player created punishments. ;)
RE: Assassination. I thought assassination was politically-motivated killing. For instance, the potential assassinations of Hitler, and the successful assassination of Osama Bin Laden.
I thought he died way back in 2001 of some disease? <wg>
I'm OT I know, sorry :p
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Darcnes I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say, or that you understood my post.
If I understood Andius correctly in the Alignment & PVP Discussion thread that we linked, in other games, alignment was on a scale. I expect it to be the same for the different axes of alignment in PFO.
For example, the G vs E scale could be from +100 to -100; with Good starting at +40, Evil starting at -40, and Neutral being everything in between (Note: I don't think the scale should actually be symmetrical, as in this example).
What Andius saw was that the players that had achieved the highest 'Good' rating of +100 did not mind occasionally killing a random person, as they knew they would get right back up to +100 soon after with all the other Good things they were doing.
If, on the other hand, alignment drifts towards Neutral, the alignment hit would continue to be a disincentive against acting outside of one's alignment, even for characters at the maximum alignment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Dario We revised it so that the natural state becomes whatever you've worked at and succeeded at Aligning yourself as. If you achieve Good, you no longer decay back to Neutral, but to a sort of fledgling Good status. If Neutral encompasses 99 points of Good and 99 points of Evil (each of which cancels out the other before accumulating) Then at 100 points of Good for example, you would no longer be Neutral + 100 Good, you would be Good + 0 Good. Or something to that effect. You've reached a plateau and no longer need to worry about back sliding before your next big climb. The Decay of a character with Evil + 100 Evil would just gradually return to Evil + 0 Evil over time if no actions were taken to counteract this Decay.
This I don't mind as much. Still not 100% for it, since it means you end up a hairsbreadth from shifting alignment.
What if you had something seperate, a sort of "Alignment Devotion" where you get some small perk for exemplifying your alignment. It doesn't affect how likely you are to shift alignment, but encourages you to act in keeping with your alignment.
So you've got an alignment scale 100 to -100. If you're over 30, you're good aligned. Once you get into the good alignment, in addition to alignment shifts toward further good, you also build up a separate meter that decays. Maybe it boosts the effect of shifts in the direction of your dedication based on how high it is.
Example: Baseline shift for a good act is 1 point. You've done a lot of good this week, and have your devotion meter up to 50. As long as it's that high, your good acts earn you more good points than they otherwise would, netting you 5 points instead. Maybe it also reduces the impact of evil actions, so instead of getting 1 point, you get .75 points. Essentially, while you're actively doing a lot of good, you pick up a kind of momentum toward that alignment, but if you grow lax, it's more work to improve.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What Andius saw was that the players that had achieved the highest 'Good' rating of +100 did not mind occasionally killing a random person, as they knew they would get right back up to +100 soon after with all the other Good things they were doing.
I'll mention the Fibonacci Sequence again. If the amount of Alignment loss you suffer is based on the Total number of characters you've killed that cost you Alignment, then after you've killed enough of them, each one becomes a HUGE hit.
For example, let's consider a Lawful Good Paladin. The number on the left is the number of Good characters he's killed, the number on the right is the amount of Alignment shift towards Evil he experiences:
Kills = Alignment Loss
1 = 1
2 = 2
3 = 3
4 = 5
5 = 8
6 = 13
7 = 21
8 = 34
9 = 55
10 = 89
11 = 144
It's pretty easy to see how this would deal with the problem Andius saw much better than Alignment Decay would.
And thanks to Andius for bringing this up :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Regarding: Neutral.
I'm going to repeat this because I think this is the issue with most of the discussions about Neutral alignment:
I think the issue here is that Neutral can mean balance opposites, inaction, or a set of 'neutral' actions that specifically reference preservation/nurture of nature vs. domination.Some actions can be explained on the L-C axis, some on the G-E axis, but many don't fit very well on either, or are entirely subjective and so are judged on a case-by-case basis by the DM.
I decided to just quote myself from the previous page since it was a short post. There seem to still be arguments going on about what Neutral is and how 'this' or 'that' system doesn't correctly model it. As I stated above, it seems Neutral can mean several things to different people, including but not limited to:
Acting in ways Good or Evil when it suits one (not devout)
Acting in ways Good or Evil to maintain a balance of power
Inactivity (not choosing sides)
Acting in the interest of Nature to preserve that balance
It seems to me that each of those is a valid way to play Neutral; each of these definitions was put forth here by different persons, after all.
I think we should try to create a system that fits with the Pathfinder universe (sorry Being; want to design a new alignment system with me when you retire?) and that can allow a player to decide which way their character is Neutral and to effectively play it.
I think Alignment Drift models Neutral pretty well in addition to its effects on aligned characters (especially max-aligned characters).
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Goblin Squad Member
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[Fibonacci stuff]
It's pretty easy to see how this would deal with the problem Andius saw much better than Alignment Decay would.
I must not be as smart as I think >< How is this better? It just seems like another way of doing it (though I would definitely go with something more along the lines of a linear increase).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Location of your character yes, not that of every character around you (getting increasingly more costly in populous areas).. in metropolitan areas just having it be a single global snapshot calculation would be more efficient I believe. That's not saying much. It's still an unnecessary cost IMO for something that doesn't fit well with the mythos of PF Alignment.
...
If it doesn't fit well that is one thing, but character position and status is already being polled for everyone in the character's proximity if the character can be seen by them anyway: flipping a bit isn't going to add much of anything.
Whatever...
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It is disappointing to my prejudices that we have decided alignment is somehow an entitlement, rather than something earned. Intending good is fine, but being the best should be an achievement, and difficult.
Wasn't there a condition set by the designer that Lawful Good would be difficult to achieve and maintain?
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@Being if that's the case then we skip plateaus altogether but the Alignment Decay I think is suited to handling this either way.
@Nihimon Going Fib on this would eventually preclude ever being able to be anything other than the opposite of what you've maintained. It handily punishes that paladin for their transgression, but so does going criminal, without the added effect of eventually almost completely locking players out of skills they've trained for. More than any other concern in this game is that time is literally money, of the real world kind. Going Criminal will be punishment of its own, and if you don't think it's enough of a punishment you can prove yourself wrong by taking matters into your own hands. =)
Recent comments have given my the idea to evolve the Alignment Decay a bit further, it can act as a sort of alignment tax. This tax must be satisfied before you make further progress on your journey towards being a paragon of your alignment. It is a bit more aggressive than just ticking away, has more or less the same effect and occupies the idle hands of those who are maxed and bored a bit better than simply staying maxed because you got there once.
This player who kills because they can is going to be the kind of player who doesn't view being Good as a goal, but as a result of doing what they've been doing, with little regard to alignment at all. We should also be working towards realizing a system where haphazardly disregarding your alignment is dangerous and where one does not simply gravitate towards Good without arriving towards it. If you have to earn being Good, you are certainly less inclined to toss it away so carelessly, and it sounds like you don't have to really earn it in this other game. Also that you don't go criminal for committing the kinds of acts that are likely to "bleed off excess Good points". Good Alignment needs to be viewed as a commodity rather than a currency.
I use Good a lot, the same can be said of any other Alignment pole. Unfortunately this just does not leave much room for Neutral as a dedication.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not sure about that. I don't do good things to be good, I do good things because they feel like the appropriate thing to do. I don't think there is anything at all wrong with your alignment being the result of your decisions, rather than deciding your decisions based in your alignment (which is also valid)
It's like in swtor there was a sort of light side/dark side moral compass, but if you were sith in particular, often the options were so ridiculous that if you were playing any sort of character that wasn't meant to be utterly insane you only had one choice.
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So lets tackle the topic of dedication to the Neutral cause.
We can start by identifying inherently Neutral acts. Just as murdering is Evil and killing Criminals is Lawful, if dedication to Neutrality is to be considered a mechanically sound pursuit we must identify that which is by definition a Neutral action and not simply view it as "anything that's not Good/Evil/Lawful/Chaotic must be Neutral".
It might also help to make the case of TN being the goal, as it is with Druids. Simply defining a Neutral act can breed confusion since there are two definitions of Neutral.
In this case we can specify that a TN action bleeds off and seeks balance between not just two poles as most actions will do, but between all four.
The most obvious, but I must emphasize not the only course of action will be preserving nature. So what qualifies for this? That's tough, undeath is predominantly the realm of Evil and as such Good already lays claim to the subversion. Actually, it almost seems like the only enemy left for Neutrality is Neutrality itself.
So I ask, what mechanical goals can one pursue to create balance in their lives across all four axis that cannot be simply be broken down into their individual components. Definition of these is a must if a case is to be made for TN as a path in and of itself the way the four poles are.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not sure about that. I don't do good things to be good, I do good things because they feel like the appropriate thing to do.
You should examine that process a little closer. Doing Evil does not feel right, doing Good does. A Neutral person is likely to do both to maintain balance or simply choose a course of inaction. In essence what you're doing day to day is likely to count as doing acts of Good, but in order to be categorically held up as an example of Good you must dedicate yourself to it, such as you see some people do in using their lives to help others, rather than just passively choosing a Good action over Evil. Think of your day to day actions as mostly being eaten by proposed Alignment Decay and without actual efforts on your part you can't be held up to these examples of Good ideals without falling short.
Also remember we're talking about a world where the Gods define what is Good in absolute measure.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm gaining a little enthusiasm to replace the growing dread I was feeling, just by trying to approach with you once more a somewhat thorny problem for Druids (see what I did there?).
First, I would propose that we will not be successful trying to define acts that preserve a state or condition. That means rather than seeking actions that refrain from change we should seek actions that cause change.
Examples might be:
- Clearing/using down wood rather than cutting living trees.
- 'Constructing' (planting) a Druid's Grove, which might be something of a sanctuary for the Neutral peoples.
- Removing/destroying untended construction sites regardless of owning alignment
- Removing by whatever means non-neutral predators (such as goblins)
- Destroying undead and other unnatural critters
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But that's the point, I'm not holding to "Good ideals". If my character is compassionate, it will do compassionate things, because that is a personality trait, not because "it will improve my good alignment" I'm not aiming to be the epitome of anything. If those traits happen to fit in well with a particular alignment, then that's what my alignment will be. The alignment itself is not a goal.
Unless you are an alignment restricted class.
Assassination is evil. It may be done to achieve a greater good...Assassination is Evil because of the ways in which it differs from "killing". Not all killing is Assassination. Not all killing is Evil.
I think you're right that Evil characters can be Assassinated... by other Evil characters.
I am arguing that when a Good character kills an Evil character, it is, by definition, not Assassination.
Many tyrants and dictators were either assassinated or someone attempted to do so. Were those people who did so Evil?
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@Being Remember that hunting undead and non-neutral Alignment types are already firmly in the precincts of other Alignments and that in an absolute system can belong only to one.
The other ideas serve as great examples of preserving nature. Can they be viewed as opposing chaos though? That'll have to be asked of each goal and of all four poles. Using already downed trees and renewing nature by planting trees I think firmly qualify as TN in purpose, and hold up further in thinking about a tradesman regularly doing these things becoming closer to nature and TN. This is a good start, but we'll need more examples, and hopefully some that are not purely nature based.
What I said about Neutrality being its only possible enemy in terms of alignment can actually be flipped on its head as well in that it's also its only possible friend. I suggest that aiding those of Neutral alignment be considered an act of TN. Anyone have ideas of aggressive actions that can be considered TN in nature, that don't fall in the realms of another Alignment?
Random thought about rival Alignment.. If some enemies are Evil and must be fought by Good, and some Good that must be fought by Evil, what about enemies that seek to destroy everything? Or even wish to kill off all the Alignments that aren't TN, would these enemies not be firmly in the realm of TN? As TN shifts towards Good for helping with a matter of Good (killing Evil baddie for example), is it out of line for Good then to slip towards Neutral when fighting Neutrality?
Maybe fighting Neutrality is the mechanic that Decays the four Alignments, as fighting the four Alignments also causes Neutrality a need to balance their actions.
It would mean that the cloud gained from attacking anyone/anything Neutral is rather small though. But it does fit in with hurting something that is not diametrically opposed to your alignment. Good is hurting something that while doing some Evil also does some Good, and vice versa. It's an interesting and far reaching alternative to Fibonacci punishments and Alignment Decay. Plus it has the advantage of being completely organic rather than system mandated.
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I don't think it's accurate to say a character that is compassionate is "chaotic good" probably is somewhere in "good" but could be anywhere on the spectrum, based on whatever other factors influence their decisions. But that's just an example. I just don't like the idea of alignments becoming goal in themselves except for specific characters, eg a paladin, where the whole idea IS to be a champion of virtue, and thus, the epitome of lawful good. But for the average character, your alignment should reflect the decisions you make, rather than you making decisions based on what you want your alignment to be.
In essence, your alignment should reflect your character's decisions, which can be a reflection of their motivations and personality but the mechanics cannot take that into account.
So since this is about mechanics, we should be talking about mechanics reflecting what those alignments are supposed to mean. Which can be difficult given there are so many ways the same alignment can be used.
As we've seen in this discussion, both True Neutral in the sense of Balance and true neutral in the sense of either apathy or neutrality in the good/evil struggle and chaos/order struggle all fall into this spot of "true neutral" yet the hows and whys of this alignment can be drastically different.
The same goes for other alignments to varying degrees, and in all of them there are things you can definitely say do not fit.
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I know the discussion has moved on to the way alignment will slide, but since I still see questions or debates about starting alignment (whether it will be something you choose or need to "earn"), the following description of the Alignment Pack makes me think we're choosing our starting alignment.
"This pack gives the character an increase in Alliance ranking with one of Pathfinder Online's Alliances (Hellknights, Pathfinder Society, Knights of Iomedae, Denizens of the Echo Wood, and others yet to be announced) of compatible alignment with the character."
Since I can't imagine that they are offering this kisckstarter reward and expecting the customer to have to wait until you've reached the appropriate alignment to us it, I have to think players will pick their alignments up front.
If everyone already knew this...sorry for the repetition.
Hobs
The Empyrean Order
http://theempyrean.org/
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I don't think it's accurate to say a character that is compassionate is "chaotic good" probably is somewhere in "good" but could be anywhere on the spectrum, based on whatever other factors influence their decisions...
I would agree it is inaccurate to say compassion is chaotic good except that compassion is based on how you feel rather than law. Charity is lawful, but compassion is emotional. You feel it is good, and insofar as you are right it is good, but it is still based on your feelings which is chaos. A Paladin may well feel good about being lawfully charitable, and a Paladin may feel good about being self-disciplined and lawful, but it is the discipline that it key, not feeling the rewards of discipline. Lawful alignment is the reason for discipline and obedience.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know the discussion has moved on to the way alignment will slide, but since I still see questions or debates about starting alignment (whether it will be something you choose or need to "earn"), the following description of the Alignment Pack makes me think we're choosing our starting alignment.
"This pack gives the character an increase in Alliance ranking with one of Pathfinder Online's Alliances (Hellknights, Pathfinder Society, Knights of Iomedae, Denizens of the Echo Wood, and others yet to be announced) of compatible alignment with the character."
Since I can't imagine that they are offering this kisckstarter reward and expecting the customer to have to wait until you've reached the appropriate alignment to us it, I have to think players will pick their alignments up front.
If everyone already knew this...sorry for the repetition.
Hobs
The Empyrean Order
http://theempyrean.org/
I would think that the player would want to wait until they knew what alliance they fit in with before making use of the alliance pack. I see daylight between the nature of a starting boon and the presumption that that starting pack has to be used at character creation. We won't be using our adventurer pack at character creation, but only after we have seen combat I would think.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think it's accurate to say a character that is compassionate is "chaotic good" probably is somewhere in "good" but could be anywhere on the spectrum, based on whatever other factors influence their decisions...I would agree it is inaccurate to say compassion is chaotic good except that compassion is based on how you feel rather than law. Charity is lawful, but compassion is emotional. You feel it is good, and insofar as you are right it is good, but it is still based on your feelings which is chaos. A Paladin may well feel good about being lawfully charitable, and a Paladin may feel good about being self-disciplined and lawful, but it is the discipline that it key, not feeling the rewards of discipline. Lawful alignment is the reason for discipline and obedience.
All true, but compassion is not the sole trait of any character except a badly written, one dimensional one. Fine for an NPC nun, not so much for a player character.
Random thought about rival Alignment.. If some enemies are Evil and must be fought by Good, and some Good that must be fought by Evil, what about enemies that seek to destroy everything? Or even wish to kill off all the Alignments that aren't TN, would these enemies not be firmly in the realm of TN? As TN shifts towards Good for helping with a matter of Good (killing Evil baddie for example), is it out of line for Good then to slip towards Neutral when fighting neutrality.
In a series of books written by Gary Gygax, that's exactly what TN fought against. The main character, a thief named Gord, who was of NG alignment, was enlisted to aid the TN faction against a faction that strove for Entropy, or the end of all things.
I wonder though if neutral acts will be able to be labeled in a way that the game will recognize? From the examples I've seen, it seems difficult.
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Goblin Squad Member
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True Neutral could ally with Lawful Neutral, Neutral Good, Chaotic Neutral, or Neutral Evil, but cannot ally with Lawful Good, Chaotic Good, Chaotic Evil, nor Lawful Evil.
True Neutral would take a double alignment hit aggressing Neutral, a full hit aggressing an alignment it could ally with, and the minimum hit aggressing an alignment it cannot ally with.
If Lawful Good gains Good when aggressing Evil and Lawful when aggressing Chaos, the True Neutral should gain True Neutrality aggressing those alignments it cannot align with.
The other cardinal powers would have half the possible allies, but also half the likely enemies.
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Goblin Squad Member
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All true, but compassion is not the sole trait of any character except a badly written, one dimensional one. Fine for an NPC nun, not so much for a player character.
Alright: your character will be your character. I was just noticing in so many objections where folks were saying they 'feel' like doing good while aspiring to a strict lawful good class and asserting they should be able to achieve the qualifications based solely on a likely story they wished to use as background.
I wouldn't have thought the self-discipline and rigid obedience of a Paladin would have been quite so simple to accomplish and maintain.