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Order of the Tome vs PFS Scrolls


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

*****

Hey everyone,

A player recently asked me about Order of the Tome in PFS. They can use either arcane or divine scrolls (their choice upon gaining the ability) with a caster level check equal to their cavalier level -4 (or just outright use the scroll automatically if that caster level is high enough, as per normal scroll rules). Thanks to PFS's houserule on scrolls (removing the arcane/divine distinction), this seems to imply that Order of the Tome cavaliers can actually use all scrolls (so one that can use divine scrolls can still use magic missile and one that can use arcane scrolls can still use divine favor). I'm assuming this was just another unintended consequence of the scroll houserule for PFS and not intended to work that way, but I'm having a hard time deciding how to rule on what spells would work with this class ability.

The relevant ability is below:

Order of thge Tome wrote:
At 8th level, the cavalier gains the ability to read scrolls and cast arcane or divine spells from a scroll as if he had a caster level of his cavalier level –4. He can decipher all scrolls, using his Linguistics skill in place of Spellcraft, and does not need to cast read magic in order to decipher a scroll. Which type of spell the cavalier can cast is based on the Knowledge skill he chose for specialized knowledge. If he chose Knowledge (arcana), he can cast any arcane spells from a scroll. If he chose Knowledge (religion), he can cast any divine spells from a scroll. Furthermore, he gains a +1 bonus to an ability score for purposes of determining the level of spells he can cast from a scroll, and this bonus increases by +1 at 10th level and every 5 levels thereafter (to a maximum of +4 at 20th level). The ability score that gains the bonus is dependent on which skill the cavalier picked for his specialized knowledge ability. If the cavalier picked Knowledge (arcana), he gains the bonus to Intelligence. If he picked Knowledge (religion), he gains the bonus to Wisdom.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Rogue Eidolon wrote:
with a caster level check equal to their cavalier level -4 instead of requiring a Use Magic Device check.

This is not in the ability you quoted.

*****

Jiggy wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
with a caster level check equal to their cavalier level -4 instead of requiring a Use Magic Device check.
This is not in the ability you quoted.

Sure it is. And you don't even need to roll the check if your cavalier level -4 would auto-succeed on it (if you have a caster level equal to the scroll's). That's just part and parcel of the rules for scrolls in PFRPG.

Scrolls wrote:
f the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell's caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell's caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll's caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a scroll mishap. A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers. Activating a scroll is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and it provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does. If the caster level check fails but no mishap occurs, the scroll is not expended.

I suppose you could also read the ability as doing literally nothing at all with a valid but even-weirder potential reading (why would the ability do nothing?), but that makes even less sense.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

You said instead of UMD, not "as per normal CL checks". Make up your mind! ;)

EDIT: What I mean to say is, the rules you quoted in your second post have nothing to do with UMD at all, and neither does the cavalier ability. Also, the cavalier's ability requires no check at all (caster level check or UMD or anything else) if his CL is high enough to cast the spell on the scroll. So your statement that it lets him make a CL check instead of UMD is all kinds of inaccurate and potentially confusing for readers.

*****

Jiggy wrote:

You said instead of UMD, not "as per normal CL checks". Make up your mind! ;)

EDIT: What I mean to say is, the rules you quoted in your second post have nothing to do with UMD at all, and neither does the cavalier ability. Also, the cavalier's ability requires no check at all (caster level check or UMD or anything else) if his CL is high enough to cast the spell on the scroll. So your statement that it lets him make a CL check instead of UMD is all kinds of inaccurate and potentially confusing for readers.

I think you have misscoped some of the clauses in my statement. To parse it fully, I was saying essentially, that whereas other cavaliers would not be able to activate a scroll without a Use Magic Device check, Order of the Tome does not need to do so. They are instead able to use the normal rules for scrolls and roll a caster level check against DC 1 + caster level, using their cavalier level - 4. If this happens to be high enough, there is no roll necessary. The difference is irrelevant to the question being asked.

However since you misread what I said and you're very good at reading rules, it's clear I'm at fault for being confusing in my wording, so I'll clean it up. With that done, can we focus on the question at hand, which isn't affected either way by the wording?

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Well, the answer to your question is one that can only be provided by Mike, so your trips back into this thread after each of my posts are like the conquest of Bowser's castles and I'm like the little prick telling you that maybe the next one will have the princess in it. ;)

*****

Jiggy wrote:
Well, the answer to your question is one that can only be provided by Mike, so your trips back into this thread after each of my posts are like the conquest of Bowser's castles and I'm like the little prick telling you that maybe the next one will have the princess in it. ;)

I'm always open to being totally wrong and missing something completely. And if someone was going to be the one to find it, you'd probably be one of the likely suspects, little mushroom guy. ^_~

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

You know, re-reading it, the point is moot: the ability doesn't care whether the scroll is arcane or divine, it cares whether the spell is arcane or divine. And that division still exists in PFS.

So arcane cavaliers can activate scrolls of magic missile, divine ones can cast bless from a scroll, and either one can use scrolls of CLW.

*

So it sounds like it's a matter of spell lists:
Bard, Magus, Sorcerer/Wizard, Summoner & Witch = Arcane. | Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger & Inquisitor = Divine...

But then we have the whole "domain spells" (cleric/inquisitor) and "patron spells" (witch) that can (potentially) muddy the waters here. Probably should get a PFS ruling at least as to domain/patron spells.

EDIT: On second thought, since players can't craft scrolls, and NPC-purchased scrolls are made by clerics or wizards, you only need to worry about the domain spells, not the patron spells. I think.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Although clerics with the Fire domain are supposed to be able to activate scrolls of fireball, I think it would be insane to count domains for this situation. Waaaaaay too much work. Best just to look up a given spell and see whose lists it's on.

*****

Jiggy wrote:
Although clerics with the Fire domain are supposed to be able to activate scrolls of fireball, I think it would be insane to count domains for this situation. Waaaaaay too much work. Best just to look up a given spell and see whose lists it's on.

Oh, it's pretty insane alright, but it seems to be the case without some Word of Mike to back up the saner interpretation.

****

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Odea wrote:

So it sounds like it's a matter of spell lists:

Bard, Magus, Sorcerer/Wizard, Summoner & Witch = Arcane. | Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger & Inquisitor = Divine...

But then we have the whole "domain spells" (cleric/inquisitor) and "patron spells" (witch) that can (potentially) muddy the waters here. Probably should get a PFS ruling at least as to domain/patron spells.

EDIT: On second thought, since players can't craft scrolls, and NPC-purchased scrolls are made by clerics or wizards, you only need to worry about the domain spells, not the patron spells. I think.

My understanding is that the scroll was made by cleric or wizard unless the spell was not on either of their lists. Like I think is the case with Bless Weapon.

****

I would imagine that the power should be ruled "Cleric list or Universalist Wizard list." That's how I'd play it at my tables unless someone had a compelling argument.

The Exchange ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Amsterdam aka Seraphimpunk

so a half elf cavalier - order of the scrolls with eldritch heritage racial trait and this ability could conceivably activate both arcane and divine scrolls willy nilly. Fun.

****

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I wast aware Eldritch Heritage helped with scroll activation.

Dark Archive ****

Arcane Heritage lets you count as first level in one arcane class for the purposes of activating magic devices. That means that you can use any wand on that list (for which ou have the Int/Cha) automatically, but scrolls above first level will still require caster levels checks.

*

Since he specified half-elves he probably meant Arcane Training alternate racial trait... but that would only give them a caster level of 1 for the chosen class (and they're giving up all favored class benefits for it...)

The Exchange ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Amsterdam aka Seraphimpunk

yeah i mean't arcane training. i just got the title wrong.

hey there's a lot to be said in pfs for a half elven cavalier that can use wands of cure light wounds at 1st level. =X

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