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I've reviewed the Goblin Works blog and some of the threads here and only need one more piece of information to make my decision.
If one of the devs would be so kind as to go to The Merits of "Sand Box" versus "Theme Park" MMO's, find and read the comment made by 'Cah111' & then answer my final question before deciding to back PFO or not I'd much appreciate it.
Would a player with behaviors and attitudes such as Cah111 be welcome in Pathfinder Online or would he be removed when those behaviors and attitudes are identified?
Thank you,
Sam
Goblin Squad Member
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Just to save everyone some time...
I’m personally a huge fan of the sandbox MMO’s I’ve tried a few RPG’s (single player) and they just don’t work for me, the scripted content just gets to repetitive after the first 10 or so hours. and without the ability to really affect events besides living or dying, it doesn’t do it for me.
However, I started playing EVE about 8 months ago, and I’m totally hooked on the sandbox approach. there’s just something so compelling about it, not just the aspect of being able to affect important events in game, but about the aspect of the inherent danger. EVE is not like WoW where if you die, you spawn as a ghost and then walk back to your body, and all your stuff is still there, if your ship dies, you pretty much loose everything that was on it or in it. But the great risk can also come with great reward, like if you manage to gank a faction battleship that is fitted with faction or officer mods (i.e. stuff that is insanely expensive to buy, and very hard to get in dungeons.) there is the satisfaction of completely ruining someone else’s day. then there’s the profit factor, if some of the officer/faction mods survive the ship popping, you can steal it and then resell it for full price, and you’ve made a tidy profit! Some of you may say “That’s not why I play a game, just to piss other people off!” then here’s my advice, stick to WoW and never touch EVE, because for easily 3/4 of the EVE population, making others frustrated to the point of crying is their number one objective. (myself included) XD
I assume that we will see many people like this who are not just playing evil but are probably living it a little as well. I would love to know what you would like to see happen to someone that actually admitted that they got a thrill because someone else was mad.
Also welcome to the internet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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quote it here, don't ask someone to dig through a thread.
Heck, I'm very curious about this myself--I'll quote it. I'd like to think I know the answer from everything I've read on the blog, KS, and forums, but it never hurts to ask.
Removed because of duplication
Edit: Doh! Tetrix beat me to it. Heh.
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quote it here, don't ask someone to dig through a thread.
No problem. Thanks for the sugestion. If context is needed, there's still the link.
I’m personally a huge fan of the sandbox MMO’s I’ve tried a few RPG’s (single player) and they just don’t work for me, the scripted content just gets to repetitive after the first 10 or so hours. and without the ability to really affect events besides living or dying, it doesn’t do it for me.
However, I started playing EVE about 8 months ago, and I’m totally hooked on the sandbox approach. there’s just something so compelling about it, not just the aspect of being able to affect important events in game, but about the aspect of the inherent danger. EVE is not like WoW where if you die, you spawn as a ghost and then walk back to your body, and all your stuff is still there, if your ship dies, you pretty much loose everything that was on it or in it. But the great risk can also come with great reward, like if you manage to gank a faction battleship that is fitted with faction or officer mods (i.e. stuff that is insanely expensive to buy, and very hard to get in dungeons.) there is the satisfaction of completely ruining someone else’s day. then there’s the profit factor, if some of the officer/faction mods survive the ship popping, you can steal it and then resell it for full price, and you’ve made a tidy profit! Some of you may say “That’s not why I play a game, just to piss other people off!” then here’s my advice, stick to WoW and never touch EVE, because for easily 3/4 of the EVE population, making others frustrated to the point of crying is their number one objective. (myself included) XD
Other than the copy and paste, I've done no editing to the quote.
THIS is the main reason why I will probably NOT be playing Pathfinder Online. ~thinks~ Actually, I was going to do the $35 mark or $50 mark, but now I will just save my money.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In EVE you have no right to get pissed off if your stuff gets destroyed, you know the risk.
Attacking others and stealing their stuff is something that will be supported in PFO. Killing a player will not grant you all their stuff(most will be destroyed), but overtaking a convoy will probably give you everything in that convoy.
When there is no profit involved, or territory to be defended, things slip into the realm of griefing and there may be harsh punishments.
In PFO when you profit on the misfortune of others you shift chaotic/evil. Being lawful is important for social interaction, Settlements will prosper more when they are lawful, and there may be key building required for advanced training that are only available in lawful settlements. The people that aren't earning a honest living will be paying out the nose for services that honest players barely break the bank for.
I'm guessing PFO will not be nearly as cutthroat as EVE, but there will always be risk involved in your actions.
One thing to note from that post. In EvE you can get people's fittings(equipment) from their wreck, in PFO you will not get peoples equipment from their husk. There is far less profit in attacking random people. As Ryan described about a year ago, success in random attacks will be like the lottery, you have to wait for the perfect storm of some idiot carrying a very valuable item alone, and it being one of the few items that isn't destroyed when you loot their husk.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's also important to distinguish between "evil" and people who play to be competitive. I expect to see plenty of "good" and "neutral" settlements fighting over resources or perceived injustices. For the most part, this will be competitiveness. That is also much of what is going on in EVE that Cah111 is failing to differentiate from just plain predatory behavior.
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Goblin Squad Member
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THIS is the main reason why I will probably NOT be playing Pathfinder Online. ~thinks~ Actually, I was going to do the $35 mark or $50 mark, but now I will just save my money.
I've never been a fan of PvP, mostly because of the absolute childishness I've seen displayed in the arena PvP settings. I've only ever played on PvE or RP servers before but I'm willing to give this game and its PvP system a chance.
I LOVE their ideas on how to adjust critical hits with characters so it's more than just gear and number crunching and min-maxing stats. I LOVE that they're trying to implement a system where people that have this attitude and are visibly (since it is going to be a relative small community compared to big names like WoW) harassing people for the sheer sake of harassment are going to find that their day is just as likely to get spoiled and totally ruined. There has been quite the voice from the player community that has said they are going to do their best to try and keep this from becoming a madhouse full of jerks.
Is it going to be perfect? No. It can't be--nothing in life is.
I've accepted the fact that I AM going to get killed by other players. There may be no way to tell if it was because someone just wanted to ruin my day or because they wanted whatever material I might have just found from some nearby resource node. It doesn't matter because either way I can still place those infinite bounties on them. Not only that but I learn something as a player; I learn tactics, I learn a little more about the game, and maybe I just learn "Don't go to this area alone." And each time I will get better and better as a player--and a lot more crafty and sly as to how I go about exploring.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I guess I don't understand why the motivations of the people in PvP matter. Can anyone explain?It's not just about pvp. It's about toxic people that eventually make for a toxic environment.
That's always been why I've kept away from PvP--many of the people, not all of them, there are PLENTY of awesome people who love PvP, get too much of a kick out of doing nothing but harassing, insulting, or otherwise annoying people.
I think it's going to be the player community who makes the difference in this game and there's been a huge voice of support from them that they don't want their game ruined by jerks. That alone is enough for me to not only want to give this a shot but chip in nearly $300 on this Kickstarter.
I want to see this game happen, I want to be a part of this experience, and I really think (judging by the community here in the forums) that it will be a great one.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well if its just about toxic people... you are right PvP and PvE don't really matter. For me its more about harassment and dickishness. I think those things will be regulated by players placing bounties on the dicks, and GMs removing harassers.
I am totally against removing a player like CAH111. In the context of EVE, he did not mention doing a single thing wrong. The only thing he did was admit that part of his enjoyment comes from when other people reacted negatively to his actions. However if he had not mentioned his motivations, his actions (killing) is perfectly normal in the context of EVE.
PFO will have a big advantage over EVE however... it will have a working bounty system from the start. EVE has had a bounty system but until this week it didnt really work. I think we will see much more self policing in PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am totally against removing a player like CAH111. In the context of EVE, he did not mention doing a single thing wrong. The only thing he did was admit that part of his enjoyment comes from when other people reacted negatively to his actions. However if he had not mentioned his motivations, his actions (killing) is perfectly normal in the context of EVE.
I'm in agreement on this as well.
As I said, we may never know when that attack is because of the resources we're carrying or because the person behind the screen just felt like it. Now, if they start taunting, gloating... or otherwise making a show of it then that falls into a different category and depending on the severity of such may require either a ticket to a Dev, or simply spreading the word to the right people. The beautiful thing about this game's bounty system is that I do not have to be a part of an anti-griefing guild, or even know anyone in one, in order to give them access to the bounties of the people who attack/kill me.
Again, this is going to be a small community of people... it's not going to be as easy for people that are obvious nuisances to hide from the player populace once they become known AND they're going to have actual in-game problems as well with the alignment system.
Again, I know it's not going to be perfect but I'll happily take it.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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@Samuel Leming - the attitude that causing pain to another person is acceptable won't be tolerated. Responses from Goblinworks would range from back-channel advice to change that attitude through a permanent ban, depending on circumstance and our opinion of what has the most chance of making the community less toxic and more healthy.
What I really want to see happen is that members of the community it's will reach out to players who come in with that attitude and help influence them to have a better approach to our community.
In EVE there's overt permission given to players by CCP to not only exhibit socially toxic attitudes, but they're somewhat rewarded for it by seeing it reflected in the messages the company transmits. See the launch trailer for Retributuon for an example. It that is a part of EVE's core design objective - to revel in what happens in a futuristic dystopia. And nobody can really say they're surprised by finding that kind of toxicity in the game and its community.
I think we can have both PvP, risk, and not have a community full of people who think its fun to make other people hurt. I think about communities like the NFL, or MMA, where there are passionate communities with a lot of violent content, but where it's understood that there's a line between "the game" and real people and their feelings.
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@Samuel Leming - the attitude that causing pain to another person is acceptable won't be tolerated. Responses from Goblinworks would range from back-channel advice to change that attitude through a permanent ban, depending on circumstance and our opinion of what has the most chance of making the community less toxic and more healthy.
Thanks. That's what I needed to know.
I'll be signing on in the next few days.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If someone ganks you, start a religious company/church up that is in direct opposition to the ganker and gather people under your banner. I'm pretty sure the lone ganker isn't going to touch a cleric or his hundreds of rabid lay worshippers in fear of being roflstomped in the name of a god.
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Goblin Squad Member
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THIS is the main reason why I will probably NOT be playing Pathfinder Online. ~thinks~ Actually, I was going to do the $35 mark or $50 mark, but now I will just save my money.
The early community of PfO has every chance of being conducive and social.
There's a lot of context to the type of attitude in OP's link; you see those same train of statements from EvE players who feel oppressed by the lack of choice of free interaction mmorpgs and vent on wow/the themepark giants is part of that game's culture now. Secondly that attitude of "freedom at any cost" has become modus operandi to be upheld in EvE by all players. It's a better game that all players understand the expectations of the game they're all invested/involved in. That applies to EvE and to PfO, but should vary in which expectations they are setting.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I am very curious to see how this evolves over the game as well. My fear is that the 'evil' community will overwhelm the 'good' community making it a constant struggle, as not everyone is going to enjoy this aspect. I think about SWtoR and how it was an overwhelming dark side community. People seem to want to be evil and make a living out of ganking, or dominating a game and making it an unpleasant experience for those who are not on that side.
Obviously, PFO is a different game, but I have a fear that if left up to the 'community' we end up with an unbalanced game. Would it make sense to have some type of policing in game? I mean, if you kill someone in public, then 'The Watch' gets involved. And I would not expect people to play the Watch but this is a part of the coding. So, if you are wanted, then it is more difficult to go about without being captured.
I do not know what works best, but this may become an issue as Cah111 posted about EVE; there are going to be people that have a single purpose to either make players lives miserable, or to dominate or change the game to their own nefarious purpose. Once these people find each other in game, it can become a tide of evil.
--Bart
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think we can have both PvP, risk, and not have a community full of people who think its fun to make other people hurt. I think about communities like the NFL, or MMA, where there are passionate communities with a lot of violent content, but where it's understood that there's a line between "the game" and real people and their feelings.
That's a really good example. If you go to a place like the Marine Corps' Martial Arts Center of Excellence (MACE), both within the staff and within the Instructor Trainer course members, you have violent contact every single day (not just once a week during the season or, a couple times a year during a big fight). But the levels of cohesion and mutuality within those group is sky high.
They've got cultural concepts for understanding certain contexts (right now we're "enemies"; now we're back to being brothers/sisters) that allow them to manage and maintain particular social relationships.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Addendum to my above post.
I just read Ryan's post about Player vs Player conflict, and he is saying the game will have basically what I was suggesting above. Still, outside these NPC areas, it will be very interesting to see what happens, and what can be done if one side dominates the other and dictates play.
--Bart
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Goblin Squad Member
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Addendum to my above post.
I just read Ryan's post about Player vs Player conflict, and he is saying the game will have basically what I was suggesting above. Still, outside these NPC areas, it will be very interesting to see what happens, and what can be done if one side dominates the other and dictates play.
--Bart
I have the opposite fear. That there will be nothing but people playing the good guys. I say this based on how nearly all of the Charter Companies so far seem to be not evil, and also because being evil will make things hard for interacting in town.
Both of us probably have nothing to fear however, I am sure it will be a good mix.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think we can have both PvP, risk, and not have a community full of people who think its fun to make other people hurt. I think about communities like the NFL, or MMA, where there are passionate communities with a lot of violent content, but where it's understood that there's a line between "the game" and real people and their feelings.That's a really good example. If you go to a place like the Marine Corps' Martial Arts Center of Excellence (MACE), both within the staff and within the Instructor Trainer course members, you have violent contact every single day (not just once a week during the season or, a couple times a year during a big fight). But the levels of cohesion and mutuality within those group is sky high.
They've got cultural concepts for understanding certain contexts (right now we're "enemies"; now we're back to being brothers/sisters) that allow them to manage and maintain particular social relationships.
Just like how when your GM is playing a Grue and tries to eat you, you know he is just playing a role and later after the game when he asked you if you want to grab a bite, you know its not an evil plot to eat you... because real life isnt the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Addendum to my above post.
I just read Ryan's post about Player vs Player conflict, and he is saying the game will have basically what I was suggesting above. Still, outside these NPC areas, it will be very interesting to see what happens, and what can be done if one side dominates the other and dictates play.
--Bart
I have the opposite fear. That there will be nothing but people playing the good guys. I say this based on how nearly all of the Charter Companies so far seem to be not evil, and also because being evil will make things hard for interacting in town.
Both of us probably have nothing to fear however, I am sure it will be a good mix.
It's a good balance to keep a check on the CE settlement bonuses. By acting CE, those players already provide themselves with more content that they like: Each other primarily and for seconds other alignments if they can... :)
I like to see if a bandit would work: Ambushes are something brilliant about mmorpgs so that's likely neutral-chaotic or something and I hope I can always take out some CE's without too big an alignment cost. That's my preliminary preference.
Though the thought of creating the best furnished settlement and providing the best pve content for other players as a "LG" players sounds very rewarding.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The fear is of course that other PCs are the content of the CE legion.
What is the content for the NG and CG groups? Other than protecting from roving bands from the Goon Squad, that when killed lose nothing?
Lee
They're pretty good content, honestly. The Empyrean Order is a Neutral Good society that will be their to protect the needing from such threats. Also the entire rest of the game will be pretty good content. You know, the settlement building and such.
And since when did the adversary losing things become the point of protecting innocents? My character will likely not loot the enemy corpse. That's below her.