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Here's the faction mission.
"Retrieve a jeweled ring from a Noble of place".
So there's a fellow walking with a retinue, who seems pretty decked out in jewelry. now, I'm a trade prince and blow my knowledge nobles check. My plan is "well I take his jewelry and I'll bring it all to my Faction leader and see if this is what he's looking for".
so I botched the dice roll, and didn't earn my PP. I'm not upset or anything, I just saw the link to the previous rewarding creativity thread (hopefully this one remains civil!)
I wanted to see how people would rule on something like that. More to see if it's reasonable for me to reward that type of play, or if I should really stick more to what the faction mission says (note: Season 2 scenario, not season 4).
Venture-Lieutenant, Canada—Manitoba
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Maybe there was a reason you shouldn't have taken everything? Or maybe you were supposed to trade for his ring, rather than rob his entire caravan or whatever. Subtlety is often a goal in and of itself. We don't always know the limitations of what our faction leaders tell us to do, as they often have mysterious motives which they are loathe to share, and many of them are remarkably prescient.
(All of which to say: Rewarding creativity is really aimed at the main mission, not for letting people get around the die rolls inherent in their faction missions. Sometimes you blow a roll and don't get the point.)
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Yeah, i know the season 4 is more focused on letting creative solutions work. I tried to make it clear I honestly don't care that I didn't get the PP, I don't think I should have, I'm just looking for advice on creative solutions for players.
Honestly, it feels like faction missions are achieved a higher % of the time than the theory of 2/3 (I'd say every 3 tables I play at ONE person fails one mission).
Either way, I got the answer I was looking for, the ruling was more pointed towards primary missions as opposed to faction missions.
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You know I've noticed a trend in faction missions. Some factions will have you use skills like Slight of Hand and Stealth, where others will have you use Diplomacy and Sense Motive.
I think you'd first want to make sure your character matches the faction in skill so you'd have a better chance at making the skill checks.
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Unless the faction missions says otherwise, you can get help. If you're a charismatic type and the checks requires some kind of strength check or climb, don't be afraid to ask the big dumb barbarian.
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I wouldn't do this that often, but you can sometimes trick your party members into do your mission for you. Like you can lie to them and say that the merchant you just talked to wants the ledger to remove a transaction that he made, but your faction mission is return the ledger to your Venture-Captain.
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Bribery goes a long way. I usually assign +1 / 10 gp spent as a general rule. So if you roll a 16 and the DC is 20 you could add a "little extra for your family...".
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Other players who also have the same faction mission so sometimes you don't need to do nothing - effectively riding their coat tails. If the player had to bribe an NPC, be sure to share the cost - its polite.
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And of course you can always, usually when you first get the mission, ask your GM to clarify the mission if you're not exactly sure what needs to be done. If its secret take your GM aside and ask exactly what is expected of you.
I find that a lot of times when players fail their missions is that they didn't understand the mission in the first place.
Also as a GM you need to make sure that they give opportunity for their players to do their mission. Like if a player's mission is for a bit of information to NOT leak out, be sure to pause right before the you're about to spill the beans from the NPC interrogation, or allow the player to steer the conversation away.
Also if you're new I would hope a GM would be a little more forgiving and instructive on missions - I usually make sure to explain what a mission is to new players and what is expected of them to accomplish.
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My personal opinion, for what it is worth, is that legitimate alternative ways of solving problems for either core missions or faction missions are a necessity to the whole role play experience. It creates what feels more like a living fantasy world that an old 8 bit video game where you must have X to get Y whether it makes sense or not.
If I were GM and you dumped an excessive amount of jewelry on the faction leaders desk seeing if it would work, depending on the feel of the environment I would either have him chastise you making him sort through the "junk jewelry" to get what he wanted or graciously thank you for going above and beyond. Either way I would think it worth the 1 PP as long as the item you were supposed to bring was part of the loot you brought in.
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Maybe there was a reason you shouldn't have taken everything? Or maybe you were supposed to trade for his ring, rather than rob his entire caravan or whatever. Subtlety is often a goal in and of itself. We don't always know the limitations of what our faction leaders tell us to do, as they often have mysterious motives which they are loathe to share, and many of them are remarkably prescient.
If I were in this situation, I would ask for the faction mission back and read it. If there were anything that suggested subtlety or any other 'condition' that meant his solution nullified the reason for attempting the mission, for example, 'don't let him know you did it', I would give him the point.
(All of which to say: Rewarding creativity is really aimed at the main mission, not for letting people get around the die rolls inherent in their faction missions. Sometimes you blow a roll and don't get the point.)
The RAW, meaning the Guide to PFS play says nothing to suggest that 'creative solutions' only applies to the main mission. Indeed it seems to suggest it applies to all aspects of the game session. The idea that making the faction mission=making a role seems to be contrary to the spirit of the rules. It's like suggesting someone who uses diplomancy to get through a 'fight' encounter is somehow cheating, even though they used a solution different from what the writer intended.
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I agree. When I hear someone saying creative solutions in PFS, I assume they are talking about Faction Missions, and I think it is right to do so. I've seen some, both as a player and DM that the information presented to the player as criteria for what is expected for completion is very different than what the DM is told to to reward for doing, and it seems like something was either messed up in editing/changing or the writer(s) where trying to screw over a certain faction. I tend to believe more towards the former.
Honestly, I almost wish that the dice roll was compltely removed from Faction Missions, and leave it as a choice and/or RP thing.
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because the question of "what does the faction mission say" is coming up.
Here's the text
I have a buyer of rare jewels right where I want him and I just need one more
prize to hook him for a very large sale. I believe you are in a distinct position
to get what he is looking for. While you are in Geb, find a ring worn by one of
the many undead nobles who walk the barren countryside and mist-shrouded
city streets and obtain as many jewels from its face as possible.
the other part from the scenario.
Qadira Faction: Qadira faction PCs who obtain
the jeweled eyes from the ring of a Gebbite noble in
Act 1 earn 1 Prestige Award. Qadira faction PCs who
also obtain ichor from the ghoul worm earn 1 bonus
Prestige Award.
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My personal opinion, for what it is worth, is that legitimate alternative ways of solving problems for either core missions or faction missions are a necessity to the whole role play experience.As long as you don't interpret "creativity" as lazily getting around the skill roll like in the example above.
One module had a faction mission that required an engineering role the players had no hope of even attempting. However there was an NPC in the module with the engineering skill needed. Since he'd already gotten the party mad at him, they intimidated him into making the roll needed. That's an example of creativity as opposed to just laziness or cheese weasling your way out of the problem.
so wait, intimidating an NPC that you somehow know has the skills needed to make a roll for you is less lazy or cheesy than taking the descriptive text that the faction leader gave you, and despite not having the knowledge of the individuals noble rank, taking an item that fits the description and saying "I don't know much about nobles of Ghet, but this ring looks like what you were talking about?"
I'm not trying to discount their actions, but I don't think calling my actions cheese weasling or lazy is fair either.
I don't want this thread to turn into bickering like the last one, so I'll try not to take offense.
I made this thread in the interest of becoming a better GM, not to get my PP I have tried to make that abundantly clear.
If my example is lazy, and intimidating an enemy into making the check for you isn't, where is the line what makes sense to allow?
Are you saying use creativity to change the skill check is ok, but bypassing it is not?
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My personal opinion, for what it is worth, is that legitimate alternative ways of solving problems for either core missions or faction missions are a necessity to the whole role play experience. It creates what feels more like a living fantasy world that an old 8 bit video game where you must have X to get Y whether it makes sense or not.
If I were GM and you dumped an excessive amount of jewelry on the faction leaders desk seeing if it would work, depending on the feel of the environment I would either have him chastise you making him sort through the "junk jewelry" to get what he wanted or graciously thank you for going above and beyond. Either way I would think it worth the 1 PP as long as the item you were supposed to bring was part of the loot you brought in.
I disagree to a point.
If the mission says, “By any means possible” then sure, that would work.
But
If the mission says, anything about being sneaky, clandestine, careful, etc. then it would not work.
Think of solving a faction mission like solving a puzzle. Some are very easy. Grab tab A and put it in slot B. You are told what to do, and how to do it. All you gotta do is find tab A and slot B and be alive to insert. Some are more difficult (here’s looking at you Quest for Perfection Part III) to figure out.
Brute Force is a term used in puzzle solving and code breaking, where you basically keep trying every available option until one works. This can take years because the potential options are in the millions or billions (maybe even trillions with our technology for code-making algorithms these days). In my opinion, Brute Force is not an option for a faction mission. Brute force is not very creative. Exactly the opposite, it lacks creativity. I would not award a brute force methodology a PP based on the “award creativity” section of the guide.
Fame and Prestige is a mark of how valuable and renowned you are for solving faction and pathfinder society problems. It doesn’t seem like you’d earn a whole lot of renown for making other people (especially the faction head) do the work you’ve been assigned. Additionally, getting all the jewelry and taking it to a guy in town to appraise it for you… well we already know that the faction heads are prescient, so what makes you think they wouldn’t know that you asked an outsider, and not even another member of the pathfinder society, to do your work for you?
Fame is all about what have YOU accomplished. If you can creatively and subtly roleplay an encounter with the guy in town, so that the guy figures out your faction mission for you, without him figuring out what you were really looking for, that would be creative.
If you can figure out how to use a different skill than mentioned in the faction mission, or to use things in your environment to help to get a bonus or solve the problem, that would be c
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I agree that in the case that your faction leader wants you to prove you can negotiate having a party member or other other method like killing the guy and taking his stuff (not good for lasting trade relationships!) wouldn't work..
I go back on forth on faction missions, sometimes it feels like players succeed way too often, and sometimes it feels like missions should just be worth 2 fame.
I'm sort of on the fence on that argument, a lot of them are just "make a check, gj" which seems kind of lame IMO, and a lot of them are just "you exist and say something obvious, grats" Many Osirian missions are just "get this book, or make a rubbing of this thing" that are no checks, just simply saying you do it.
back on creativity. Bringing the jewelry back because it meets a description isn't creative? I'll agree it's obvious but if you can come up with a creative solution in the middle of a field in a foreign land with nothing around and no party members with the relevant skills. He wasn't carrying identification (in theory these specific jewels are their ID).
I'll get that bullying someone into rigging something up for you because they have the skills works, and would award that PP. I mean it gets the job done right?
My faction leader needed to sell this rare item to someone for lots of money. I got him the item, I wasn't sure it was from a noble but it looked like what he was asking about.
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Andrew,
I think what you are saying speaks to the intent of the mission, and I would agree that there is a difference if the mission has words like sneaky or whatever possible. In the above scenario, not only was sneaky not mentioned, it actually said to bring back a lot of gems, albeit for the second part of the mission. Either way an abundance of gems shouldn't be a problem in this case.
Also, I am not exactly sure what you are talking about by brute force, it sounds a lot to me like trial and error with continually revised hypotheses. If so, I call that the scientific method, the most effective problem solving tool known to man.
Lazarx,
Lazy? As much as I like alternate routes to answers, I would deem your intimidating someone else to do it more lazy than over doing yourself. Because you were asking for an intellectual skill, I would actually deem intimidating less effective than diplomacy so it would be in line with any experiment ever conducted concerning productivity in an intellectual environment, add in the fact the guy already hated you (presumably since your party hated him) and it seems like a rough sell to me.
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Andrew,
I think what you are saying speaks to the intent of the mission, and I would agree that there is a difference if the mission has words like sneaky or whatever possible. In the above scenario, not only was sneaky not mentioned, it actually said to bring back a lot of gems, albeit for the second part of the mission. Either way an abundance of gems shouldn't be a problem in this case.
Also, I am not exactly sure what you are talking about by brute force, it sounds a lot to me like trial and error with continually revised hypotheses. If so, I call that the scientific method, the most effective problem solving tool known to man.
Lazarx,
Lazy? As much as I like alternate routes to answers, I would deem your intimidating someone else to do it more lazy than over doing yourself. Because you were asking for an intellectual skill, I would actually deem intimidating less effective than diplomacy so it would be in line with any experiment ever conducted concerning productivity in an intellectual environment, add in the fact the guy already hated you (presumably since your party hated him) and it seems like a rough sell to me.
But grabbing a handful of gems, dumping them on the desk of your faction head, and saying, "its gotta be there somewhere" is lazy, brute force, and oh, so not creative.
The point is, it doesn't prove to your faction head, your faction, or the Pathfinder Society that you are worth your salt. Therefore you get no fame for making someone else do what you were asked to do.
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Example from Defenders of Nesting Swallow
I accept that not every GM would allow me to do this. However this is the type of gray area all GMs will allow. However, it is the kind of thing a GM might allow, especially if another player sabotoges your mission.
As for easier, it is not, I have to make more roles. I also have to come up with an alternate way to accomplish the mission. I also have make sure the GM interprets the mission in the same fashion I do (the part I put in italics).
Creative is not easier.
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Speaking of creative , I accomplished the Severing Ties faction through blackmail.
Spoiler
Disguised as Apsis Consortium agents we needed three specific items. One of the items was a magic dagger. So at the Temple of Calistra negotiations go bad and then a party memember decides to try and charm person the head priestess to make things agreeable for us.....Well she easily makes her will save so now she hates us even more. But my faction mission has me trying to arrange an Andoran diplomatic function with her services. Well there is no way to make the diplomacy checks now. But my character studies the magic dagger and discovers it was a fake. So in the end I told her, "We will still take this dagger and keep the knowledge of the fact that this is fake to ourselves as long as you agree to host the diplomatic function. Otherwise I will reveal this trickery to the Aspis Consortium." I made my bluff check and faction successfully accomplished.
I do enjoy games where the GM lets and rewards the players for thinking outside of the box, and the same applies when I run a game and the players find interesting ways to accomplish the goals too.
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My personal opinion, for what it is worth, is that legitimate alternative ways of solving problems for either core missions or faction missions are a necessity to the whole role play experience. It creates what feels more like a living fantasy world that an old 8 bit video game where you must have X to get Y whether it makes sense or not.
If I were GM and you dumped an excessive amount of jewelry on the faction leaders desk seeing if it would work, depending on the feel of the environment I would either have him chastise you making him sort through the "junk jewelry" to get what he wanted or graciously thank you for going above and beyond. Either way I would think it worth the 1 PP as long as the item you were supposed to bring was part of the loot you brought in.
I disagree to a point.
If the mission says, “By any means possible” then sure, that would work.
But
If the mission says, anything about being sneaky, clandestine, careful, etc. then it would not work.
** spoiler omitted **
Think of solving a faction mission like solving a puzzle. Some are very easy. Grab tab A and put it in slot B. You are told what to do, and how to do it. All you gotta do is find tab A and slot B and be alive to insert. Some are more difficult (here’s looking at you Quest for Perfection Part III) to figure out.
Brute Force is a term used in puzzle solving and code breaking, where you basically keep trying every available option until one works. This can take years because the potential options are in the millions or billions (maybe even trillions with our technology for code-making algorithms...
You then, as the dm need to ask how the vc knows how you acquired the item. If the only way is you telling them how you got it, then a bluff check plus the item should still suffice.
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You then, as the dm need to ask how the vc knows how you acquired the item. If the only way is you telling them how you got it, then a bluff check plus the item should still suffice.My personal opinion, for what it is worth, is that legitimate alternative ways of solving problems for either core missions or faction missions are a necessity to the whole role play experience. It creates what feels more like a living fantasy world that an old 8 bit video game where you must have X to get Y whether it makes sense or not.
If I were GM and you dumped an excessive amount of jewelry on the faction leaders desk seeing if it would work, depending on the feel of the environment I would either have him chastise you making him sort through the "junk jewelry" to get what he wanted or graciously thank you for going above and beyond. Either way I would think it worth the 1 PP as long as the item you were supposed to bring was part of the loot you brought in.
I disagree to a point.
If the mission says, “By any means possible” then sure, that would work.
But
If the mission says, anything about being sneaky, clandestine, careful, etc. then it would not work.
** spoiler omitted **
Think of solving a faction mission like solving a puzzle. Some are very easy. Grab tab A and put it in slot B. You are told what to do, and how to do it. All you gotta do is find tab A and slot B and be alive to insert. Some are more difficult (here’s looking at you Quest for Perfection Part III) to figure out.
Brute Force is a term used in puzzle solving and code breaking, where you basically keep trying every available option until one works. This can take years because the potential options are in the millions or billions (maybe even trillions with our technology for code-making algorithms...
And what DC are we rolling the bluff check against? Do we have stats for the faction heads? Should I arbitrarily determine what their Sense Motive is, and roll that vs. your Bluff?
Why, as a player, can’t you come up with something that is within the scenario, that is creative, makes sense, and doesn’t require the GM to come up with a bunch of rules or stats off the top of their head?
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First of all, thanks Andrew!
As for these.
Every faction mission should have multiple ways to achieve success.
Agreed
Alternative methods should be created by the players with the exception of very new players.
Agreed.
Any creative solution not outlined by the scenario should be more difficult than an officially presented method (i.e. higher DC).
I think multiple checks (i.e. opportunities to fail) can substitute for higher DCs.
Also, sometimes a player will have a spell or class ability that will cut through the problem. As long as there is not a reasonable reason to stop plan from succeeding and the player had to think it out on their own, it should succeed.Example:Temple of Empyreal Enlightenment
I was to role was a sleight of hand to reach down and grab the scales. Instead, I unsummoned my eidolon, summoned him within my sight inside the chamber, had it hand scales up to my character, then unsummoned said eidolon and resummoned it in tomb.
Apart from what I have noted, sometime these things sometimes come up and shouldn't be prevented. Player don't plan for everything and neither do bad guys.
Please don't be afraid to deny a character their faction's prestige point.
Agreed.
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And what DC are we rolling the bluff check against? Do we have stats for the faction heads? Should I arbitrarily determine what their Sense Motive is, and roll that vs. your Bluff?Why not? You'd have to make up a DC for any other creative solution, anyway.
Not really. If it is as two folks have already mentioned, and you are dealing with a stat’d NPC from the scenario, you know what their sense motive is. You know what their diplomacy is. You know what their perception is. You also know what the DC of the faction mission is. Creative solutions should never be easier than that DC (whether it means 2 DC 18 checks or 3 DC 15 checks for a single DC 20 normally).
The point being, if I’m coming up with a DC for a faction head. Its going to be an impossible one, especially if you are trying to dupe him/her.
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Faction heads have a sense motive check of 1 higher than your best bluff check. :-)
Another way to put it: Do you really want your faction head finding out that you lied about something? Goodbye prestige, hello new faction.
Exactly. Why do players think this is a good idea to try? Especially at 1st through 3rd level?
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Had an interesting creative solution for a faction mission on Sunday afternoon.
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The infamous Temple of Empyrial Enlightenment mission and how one player creatively solved it using diplomacy
The character was medium size and had no chance at all to get into the chamber.
But the player remembered that I had introduced the halfling family to them. One of the kids had been their 'guide'.
Nothing dangerous - just show them where the library was or tell them dinner was about to start. I had played the young halfling as inquisitive and looking up to these strangers - both afraid and fascinated. Also as a ploy to lure them into safety to show everything was just normal.
Half a game later - all is done apart the mission. The characters have defeated the evil and are heroes at the temple. The character remembers the halfling boy and bribed / sweet talks him with the added bit he could also have his small part of adventure by doing a favour fior him.
I hadn't expected that this mission could be solved by diplomacy, especially as I'm quite against sidestepping such problems by letting others do it.
But it was so well played - and the only NPC used who would have no problems getting in there - a young halfling - that it clearly deserved the PP.