So, when I played 1st Ed/2nd ed. I had a character who was a fighter/Mage/thief. I liked the versatility and having all these options. No it's not mechanically amazing but it was fun.
So I am trying to think of a way to recapture that same concept in Pathfinder. Because of the way that BAB and skills work you can't just go all three ways.
My current thinking is this: Ranger(1), Archtype trapper for the ability to disable magical traps (trap finding) and for the initial +1 BAB.
After that I would take Magus levels but keep pumping my stealth, disable, perception.
Ideally this would be a dex int heavy character with a 10 STR.
Thoughts? How would you go about making this- it any of your other old multicast favorites?
Awesome thanks
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
BArd is a good options.. and to reinforce the Fighter side, you could take the Arcane Duelist archetype.
I Thi k the archaeologist would be a reasonable facsimile, but the spells are kind of all wrong and is more built to buff and not really be a rogue. It kind of does it all, but it doesn't do it right.
You could have been a bard in 2e and it wasn't right then either
Bards are, more or less, the Fighter/Mage/Thief without actually being the Fighter/Mage/Thief. They can fight decently well (more so with the Arcane Duelist archetype), they can cast decently well (and get a handful of sonic damage spells), and they've got a ton of skills to be a skill monkey decently well (the part of the Thief/Rogue class that people tend to ignore because they're focusing too much on Sneak Attack).
You sacrifice specialization for versatility.
Seriously Dex built Arcane Duelist. Kickass/have fun.
My first thought was a DEX Magus with ranks in Disable Device (easy enough with a trait).
IMO the bard spell list can't be compared to the wizard/sorcery list. Yes a bard can cast arcane spells ... but they have nowhere unearthed spell power a wizard (or even magus) has.
Ah good old Morrison the Multi-Faceted
I have always liked the bard class and it does seem to "technically" fit all the requitements- its a skill monkey who can fight and cast spells. I guess it's just that it has the wrong flavor. Really an archeaologist bard is a great 1 man party- he can heal disable fight, and has utility magic. But it doesn't have the right feel.
To me the rogue stuff I want is the traps finding, the stealth, and the utility- the classy stuff. From the wizard I want a little versatility and the ability to hammer people with magic as needed. From the fighter I want someone who can use a sword at close range and beat on people.
What j like about the trapper ranger/magus is I get all that stuff. Because the magus beats on people through spells and I wa t to be sneaky I can ignore STR, focus on dex, int and a lil con and be in good shape- weapon finnesse here I come.
With the bard I have to split my points a lot, I need dex for sneaky stuff I need strength to hurt things, I need Cha for spells, and I need some con to get in there and survive.
I feel like it is less focused and tight, it's not wrong, just the wrong flavor.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My 1st character ever was a 2E elven fighter/mage/thief. He is now retired and pretty much an NPC in my buddies homebrew world where the campaign took place. We recently converted him and the rest of the party over to PF.
He was equivalent to about a 24th level single classed character in 2E, so ended up being a Fighter 1/Rogue 3/Wizard 4/Eldritch Knight 10/Arcane Trickster 6. BAB +18, Wizard caster level 19, 5d6 sneak attack, and every single skill in the game as a class skill, except for one (Heal).
made a magus/rogue/AT for a friend a whie back (had a topic here for suggestions and everything), which seems a decent fit what youre aiming for.
but really you could be a lore warden/wizard with a dash of rogue and build into eldritch knight or something.
My first thought was a DEX Magus with ranks in Disable Device (easy enough with a trait).
I'm playing this character right now in a group with a sorcerer a cleric and a paladin.
Human magus with weapon finesse and skill focus perception.
Long story short; he was an arabian themed character by the name of Shahin, which means "hawk". It didn't feel right to have a low perception with such a name so I picked skill focus. So far, having the best, by comparison, perception and reflex saves put this character in the best situation to deal with scouting and trapfinding.
As an afterthought I put crossclass ranks into disable device too.
He is still 1st level exploring a forgotten tomb under a cursed inn with his new companions. I play him mainly as a rogue, providing knowledge as a wizard would and enjoying all the fighting goodness that the magus is.
I'm having a blast with him, I love high INT characters.
My 1st character ever was a 2E elven fighter/mage/thief. He is now retired and pretty much an NPC in my buddies homebrew world where the campaign took place. We recently converted him and the rest of the party over to PF.
He was equivalent to about a 24th level single classed character in 2E, so ended up being a Fighter 1/Rogue 3/Wizard 4/Eldritch Knight 10/Arcane Trickster 6. BAB +18, Wizard caster level 19, 5d6 sneak attack, and every single skill in the game as a class skill, except for one (Heal).
Wow your first character cheated a lot :) From what I remember, only half elves could do the Fighter/Mage/Thief thing, and the highest level they could reach was 9th. Now I may be mis-remembering or remembering 1st ed. but I"m pretty sure that's right.
IMO the bard spell list can't be compared to the wizard/sorcery list. Yes a bard can cast arcane spells ... but they have nowhere unearthed spell power a wizard (or even magus) has.
This is true if you want blastier spells go with a Magus archetype, high dex, decent skill selection, if you absolutely positively need class skills a dip in rogue, or taking traits to give you the skills you want will help.
If your spell are more in the enchantment/buffing area Bard IS what you want.
My first thought was a DEX Magus with ranks in Disable Device (easy enough with a trait).
I was on board with bard, but I like this better. A sprinkling of rogue levels would round out this concept well.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Wow your first character cheated a lot :) From what I remember, only half elves could do the Fighter/Mage/Thief thing, and the highest level they could reach was 9th. Now I may be mis-remembering or remembering 1st ed. but I"m pretty sure that's right.My 1st character ever was a 2E elven fighter/mage/thief. He is now retired and pretty much an NPC in my buddies homebrew world where the campaign took place. We recently converted him and the rest of the party over to PF.
He was equivalent to about a 24th level single classed character in 2E, so ended up being a Fighter 1/Rogue 3/Wizard 4/Eldritch Knight 10/Arcane Trickster 6. BAB +18, Wizard caster level 19, 5d6 sneak attack, and every single skill in the game as a class skill, except for one (Heal).
How about a little research before you go accusing someone of cheating, but I guess that's just not as fun as blind accusations. ;)
A an elf (and half elf) can be a fighter/mage/thief in both 1E and 2E. In 2E the level limits for an elf for fighter is 12, mage is 15, and thief is 12. These can be adjusted upwards by how high your prime requisites attributes are. My character finished as a 12/13/15 F/M/T, and had a 19 Dex. My XP total was equivalent to a 24th level single classed Fighter in 2E, hence how we got my total PF level....but those are just facts.
My first thought was a DEX Magus with ranks in Disable Device (easy enough with a trait).I was on board with bard, but I like this better. A sprinkling of rogue levels would round out this concept well.
The problem with taking rogue levels is how much it slows down your BAB, considering how much the Magus needs to connect I don't think it's the best way to go.
The sneak attack is nice but situational, I think the trapper ranger is nice for a couple levels though- boosts your BAB, gives you some much needed skill points, and the increased HP doesn't hurt either- and I like taking human as a favored enemy.
Now I may be mis-remembering or remembering 1st ed. but I"m pretty sure that's right.
Mis-remembering. The half-elf-only triple was cleric (or druid)/fighter/mage; both elves and half-elves could be fighter/mage/thieves.
My 1st character ever was a 2E elven fighter/mage/thief. He is now retired and pretty much an NPC in my buddies homebrew world where the campaign took place. We recently converted him and the rest of the party over to PF.
He was equivalent to about a 24th level single classed character in 2E, so ended up being a Fighter 1/Rogue 3/Wizard 4/Eldritch Knight 10/Arcane Trickster 6. BAB +18, Wizard caster level 19, 5d6 sneak attack, and every single skill in the game as a class skill, except for one (Heal).
At the risk of some thread necro, I wanted to post this here since such excellent points have already been made.
How have the changes to SLAs for PRCs or inclusion of Eclectic and Esoteric training from Inner Sea Magic changed these potential builds?
Eclectic Training (5 Fame): Guilds often require members to master and train in different subjects. When your Fame score in a guild reaches
5, choose one spellcasting class you have at least 1 level in—you increase
your effective caster level in that class (including the number of spells you know and can cast per day) by +1, to a maximum caster level equal to
your total Hit Dice. Single-classed spellcasters should still pick a class to which this bonus applies, since this bonus is retroactive.
Esoteric Training (35 Fame): The bonus to caster level you gain from Eclectic Training increases to +3 (but is still limited by your total Hit Dice). You may select a second spellcasting class to gain a +1 bonus to effective caster level.
An Assimar Magus 1 / Rogue 1 /EK 10 / Arcane Trikster 8 or
Fighter 1 / Wizard 1 / Rogue 1 / EK 10/ AT 7 would also be possible with a decent BAB. Heck they'd still be able to cast level 9 spells at 20 even without Esoteric training...and they'd get it at level 17 with it!
Even Gambit's Fighter 1/Rogue 3/Wizard 4/Eldritch Knight 10/Arcane Trickster 2 would become workable. With Esoteric Training and Magical Knack they'd cast level 9 spells effectively as a 20th level caster.
Not to mention adding any mythic tiers to the mix!
The Fighter 1 / Wizard 1 / Rogue 1 / EK 10/ AT 7 build would also end up with a BAB of +14/+9/+4 which is only one less than a 20th level Rogue.
Side note: Can anyone tell me why some forum posts I make are available to be edited, and others aren't? I wanted to add this to my previous post, but couldn't. I can't seem to find the pattern....
I decided to flesh this out a little bit:
build would end up with:
A BAB of +14/+9/+4 which is only one less than a 20th level Rogue.
Level 9 spells at 20, equal to a 17th level Wizard. And they’ll get them at 17 with Esoteric Training for a net power loss of 0.
4 Bonus Combat Feats vs a Fighters gajillion (11) and count as an 11th level Fighter and Wizard for meeting feat prereqs.
Spell Critical Special Ability, which none of them have.
Sneak Attack +4d6 equal to a 7th level rogue, but Ranged Legerdemain, Impromptu Sneak Attack, and Tricky Spells (free still/silent spells) which none of them have.
So in essence, this character ends up a 17th level Wizard / 19th level Rogue / 11th level Fighter. Nearly as good a Rogue, nearly as good a Wizard, and a passable Fighter, but you’d need to spend skills/feats to flesh out the build. Not bad at all.
*Note, you’d need to do something to get an extra +1d6 in sneak attack to qualify for Arcane Trickster. Pending what’s allowed at your table, this might derail this build. The simplest solution is to go 1 level of Assassin or Vivisectionist; or go Fighter 1/Wizard 1 / Rogue 3 / AT 10 / EK 5 which would get it done, but play much differently.
Another thread about this topic suggested a build worth mentioning here even though it's not a Fighter/Mage/Thief as such:
8th level spells as an 18th level caster with Magical Knack, and 9th level spells as a 20th level caster with Esoteric Training for a net power loss of 0.
Bloodline powers of a 9th level Sorcerer plus 3 bloodline feats.
A BAB of +17/+12/+7/+2, equal to a 17th level fighter
11 levels of d10 HD and 8 levels of d12; +4 STR / +2 CON / +2 INT, +3 natural armor, claws, bite, breath weapon and dragon form once a day.
4 Bonus Combat Feats vs a Fighters gajillion (11) and count as an 11th level Fighter and Sorcerer for meeting feat prereqs.
So in essence, this character ends up a 16th level Sorcerer (or 19th with Esoteric Training) and essentially 18th level Fighter. I realize I’m being generous on the Fighter part, but I counted the 7 levels of DD that contribute combat abilities as fighter levels. Once again: Nearly as good as a Sorcerer, and nearly as good as a Fighter; not bad at all.
*Note, you’d need to spend skills/feats to flesh out the concept fully
Ultimately I don't think either of these builds are world breakers, but they are doable. Not only doable, I think with the proper feat selections, buffs, and play style they could be pretty darn brutal.
And you get around your limitations by remembering your strengths. True Strike, Hypnotize, Color Spray, Magic Missile, Unprepared Combatant, are great and Enlarge Person is super sexy. Drop Blacklight, Grease and/or something terrible on them before you wade in and clean up.
Bulls Strength, Cat's Grace and the backup you summon for yourself all help a lot. DDs should be sure to make friends with the Druid or Ranger to get Strong Jaw cast on you as soon as possible. Not only offset your weaknesses, but take away their strength. If you try to hang with the Barbarian, you can't. If you try to hang with the straight Wiz, you can't. But if you play your cards right, neither of them can hang with *you*. Drop an Ennervation on an unsuspecting friend just to strike a little fear in their hearts from time to time. ;)
I'd trade out the level of fighter and one level of DD for paladin levels if your going the sorcerer route.
I'd trade out the level of fighter and one level of DD for paladin levels if your going the sorcerer route.
You make a compelling argument. I'll look into it.
I'd trade out the level of fighter and one level of DD for paladin levels if your going the sorcerer route.
Upon reflection, I personally don't think the gain of Aura of good, detect evil, smite evil 1/day, Divine grace, and lay on hands is worth the loss of a combat feat, Ability boost (Int +2), bloodline feat and +1 level of spellcasting...but YMMV. It may be a better fit for a campaign you know isn't going to 20 when the early Paladin abilities would be more useful.
And even though this clearly isn't a fully fleshed out build with feats, etc (but feel free to jump in, folks!) but you definitely would need to take Magical Knack and Scion of Humanity for this build to work properly.