If you're wearing a menacing AoMF, which is active, and has Improved Unarmed Strike, but you choose to Attack with your +1 Keen Scimitar instead - do flanking allies (and potentially yourself) still get the +2 increase to the flanking bonus?
Flanking bonus always happens when you are flanking, not when you are attacking with the weapon. Nothing in the description of menacing seems to limit it to when attacking with the weapon:
Menacing: This ability can only be placed on a melee weapon. This weapon property helps allies deal with flanked foes. When the wielder is adjacent to a creature that is being flanked by an ally, the flanking bonus on attack rolls for all flanking allies increases by +2. This ability works even if the wielder is not one of the characters flanking the creature.
Bolding is my own. It only states you need to be adjacent to a foe, and if any of your other allies are in flanking position they get increased flanking bonuses.
Nice. This changes AoMF into a buffing amulet. I like that. This'll be extremely good for my Cavalier/Monk :)
The description of AMF states that "Alternatively, this amulet can grant melee weapon special abilities, so long as they can be applied to unarmed attacks." I question if "Menacing" qualifies, considering it states "Menacing: This ability can only be placed on a melee weapon."
Bottom line, check with your GM.
As far as I know, all melee properties (excluding throwing /returning) can be placed on an AoMF. So that's not really what I'm disputing here, I actually take that as a given. My question is; if I don't actively use the "weapon" that has the menacing property - does the property still work? I am threatening with the menacing "weapon" and I could potentially perform an attack of opportunity with it. I believe it does work as written. And I think that's cool :)
In the case of a monk his unarmed attacks are considered to be manufactured weapons, so they would be melee weapons. I was a little sketchy as well about placing the menacing on the amulet, since it isn't directly a weapon, but I'd love to see where it does say what kind of enhancements can be placed on it.
I would suggest that the weapon has to be 'manacing' the target - in the case of unarmed strikes, this is easy as you need only feet free to use them. However, I would say this wouldn't work for a non-monk character without the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.
Looking through the Magic Item section in the Core, Menacing should indeed be able to be put on the AoMF, although it's going to be a pretty expensive item. You might be better off using the Tactician bonus teamwork feat to accomplish the same, and I don't think you're going to be able to stack many of the bonuses with the Menacing AoMF (anything else that grants bonus to flanking won't stack).
Can you post your character and concept? I'm curious now :)
**EDIT**
For example if you take the Outflank teamwork as your bonus feat from Tactician you and anyone in 30ft of you get +4 to flanking.
Hey Pendin - why wouldn't they stack? Menacing just say that it adds +2 to the flanking bonus. This should stack with Outflank.
And it won't be that expensive - AoMF doesnot require you to put +1 enhancement bonus on it first - so it'll only cost 5.000 gp.
I'll be happy to post my build - but give me a few minutes, I'll put the build up in advice, as I think it merits it's own thread. I'll come back here and provide a link.
Hi again.
I've posted my build here.
It's a bit complicated, as the things he can do are not so clear just by looking at his build. So I've provided an overview of the buffs he brings to the table as well. I hope it all makes sense.
Cool concept! I am doing a phalanx soldier archetype dwarf right now that I envision giving benefits to our party casters/anyone who wants to get behind my tower shield and 5-foot step to strike.
I don't know if the bonus will stack since it's the same type of bonus, i.e. flanking type. I honestly don't know for sure and would need someone like Wraithstrike or Jiggy to weigh in on that.
Plus, Outflank does it better for free, giving you $5k more to play with in terms of gear (maybe a +1 to your breastplate?).
You've got Master of Many Styles (which I admit I am not that familiar with). Are you thinking about combat maneuvers as part of your help? Tripping might be a viable course for you, as it will provoke AoO's when they get up from you and all your allies in reach.
Cool concept! I am doing a phalanx soldier archetype dwarf right now that I envision giving benefits to our party casters/anyone who wants to get behind my tower shield and 5-foot step to strike.
I don't know if the bonus will stack since it's the same type of bonus, i.e. flanking type. I honestly don't know for sure and would need someone like Wraithstrike or Jiggy to weigh in on that.
Plus, Outflank does it better for free, giving you $5k more to play with in terms of gear (maybe a +1 to your breastplate?).
You've got Master of Many Styles (which I admit I am not that familiar with). Are you thinking about combat maneuvers as part of your help? Tripping might be a viable course for you, as it will provoke AoO's when they get up from you and all your allies in reach.
There is no "flanking type" of bonus. Both the menacing weapon ability and the Outflank feat provide untyped bonuses to attack rolls while flanking. Untyped bonuses stack.
Thanks WRoy, this is what was tripping me up:
Bonus: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.
Menacing: This ability can only be placed on a melee weapon. This weapon property helps allies deal with flanked foes. When the wielder is adjacent to a creature that is being flanked by an ally, the flanking bonus on attack rolls for all flanking allies increases by +2. This ability works even if the wielder is not one of the characters flanking the creature.
Outflank (Combat, Teamwork)
You look for every edge when flanking an enemy.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Whenever you and an ally who also has this feat are flanking the same creature, your flanking bonus on attack rolls increases to +4. In addition, whenever you score a critical hit against the flanked creature, it provokes an attack of opportunity from your ally.
The wording makes it seem like there is a flanking bonus type, and I was concerned that it wouldn't stack.
Bolding is my own.
The wording makes it seem like there is a flanking bonus type, and I was concerned that it wouldn't stack.
Bolding is my own.
Actually, you may have been right in the first place about the bonus type. The flanking rules themselves call it a flanking bonus.
Flanking
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.
However, I think the ability and feat would still stack. Outflank states that your flanking bonus increases to +4, while menacing increases the flanking bonus for all flanking allies by +2.
In regards to yourself, yes, but with his Tactician, which grants the Outflank bonus of +4 to everyone else, wouldn't that negate the menacing?
Of course, the menacing would be active all the time and the Tactician only when activated (1x per day, 2x at 5th level and +1x every 5 levels after).
I'm pretty sure there is no "flanking bonus" - but not 100 %. I'm also pretty sure WRoy is correct. With Outflank anyone who flansk get a +4 bonus from flanking. Menacing increase it by a further +2.
...in regards to my build, the MoMS part is mostly to get the crane style feats early (to get Crane Style and Crane Wing). These go well hand i hand with catious fighter and blundering defense. In effect I get to add +3 AC to all adjacent allies, I only take a -2 penalty (later -1) for fighting defensively, and my own AC goes up by +6. That's some very nice bonuses right there. And I get to defelct an attack from lvl 3!
I would love to implement combat maneuvers (especially trip) in my build as well, but my feat progression doesn't really allow it. I might try to trip anyway, and just eat the AoO depending on the circumstances.
Thanks for that clarification Oladon!
Thank you for pointing that out Oladon :)
Is there any reason to believe that you couldn't use a menacing amulet of mighty fists with natural attacks?
None at all.
What a super-necro!