I'd love to see dire bats and other suitable flying mounts in the game. Plea over.
Goblin Squad Member
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I'd love to see dire bats and other suitable flying mounts in the game. Plea over.
I fully support flying mounts in this game BUT, it needs to not work the same way it has in other games. Flying mounts shouldn't lead to less combat like it does in WoW. You are up in the sky where everyone can see you. It should be like painting a giant target on your butt. From another topic:
Dragons are rideable in D&D. I should know I played a character of the Dragon-Rider prestige class.
But you are right you don't just lasso a dragon and teach it how to obey your orders. My character was a paladin of Bahumat (The good dragon god in regular D&D) before he took the dragon rider prestige class, and after he maxed it he took the Vassal of Bahumat prestige class.
My dragon was not a subservient animal. It was a partner, a young silver dragon who I had done a favor, and had chosen to fight alongside me. It could actually take human form and frequently in the campaign I would consult it since it had high skills in knowledge: just about everything.
Should dragon riding ever become a prestige class it needs to come with some serious penalties otherwise we will see 1000 dragon riders, and I for one would not like to see this game dominated by flying mounts. It should take commitment, persistence, and in the end you should not be able to form a balanced party of people with flying mounts. They should also be far less effective on foot though I would say on foot they should get their human form dragon as a companion as dragons are shape-shifters.
If it could be balanced out right that class would be EPIC. I know I would love to play one as it would suit my purpose of patrolling newb lands for griefers and building an unstoppable navy perfectly. I can't swim because of my heavy cleric armor!? Who cares! I ride a DRAGON!!!
But as entirely epic as a dragon rider prestige class would be, and as much as I would LOVE to play one, in the end if it means everyone is going to be up on the sky in flying mounts I say NO! If flying mounts in all mean that more than 30% of the older player-base are going to be up in the sky at all regularly I say NO!
Flying mounts should come with:
1. A wide array of anti air attacks for most classes, including attacks that can force us to the ground/water.
2. It should be REALLY hard to actually get a flying mount/flying mount prestige class.
3. Flying very quickly should drain the stamina of your mount very quickly so that if you are up in the sky not paying attention you are an easy target for other flying mounts who can streak across the sky and force your mount to the ground.
4. You need to be able to take other people up on your mount, probably with large penalties to combat if you do so, so everyone can experience flight once. It might even give you an option to let them take the reigns and fly as long as you are up there with them. EVERYONE is going to want to fly at least once. This will cut down on the people who are going to specialize their character in doing so.
5. Flying mounted classes should just be straight up weaker than non-flying mounted classes on foot, making them worse at dungeons, fighting inside of buildings, or if they get dismounted. Really if you dedicate yourself to the art of fighting in the sky you will just not be as effective in a cramped dungeon.
6. You might make flying mounts difficult to control, and you for sure would limit what skills could be used in flight. A dragon riders main attack should be their dragon's breath and claws. They shouldn't be casting massive fireballs and such on top of their dragon's attacks... infact I would say flying a dragon would be too distracting to use arcane magic that requires inductions at all.
7. Young dragons only. Nobody wants to face somebodies Wyrm.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have yet to see a classic MMO where mounted combat was done well.
Usually your mount vanishes as soon as combat sets in which is very cheesy for flying mounts...
But I have the feeling that coding a compelling aerial battle system is not the highest priority of GoWo and without this flying mounts would make not a whole lot of sense.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have yet to see a classic MMO where mounted combat was done well.
Usually your mount vanishes as soon as combat sets in which is very cheesy for flying mounts...
But I have the feeling that coding a compelling aerial battle system is not the highest priority of GoWo and without this flying mounts would make not a whole lot of sense.
I have to agree with this. If flying mounts could be done right I am OK with them, however if they
1. Reduce chances of players being able to ambush, by more than 50%, they have to go.
2. reduce chances of any kinds of barriers, deffenses etc... by more then 50%
3. Almost negate or nearly negate most hazards of traveling.
Then it would be better not to have them. If they can be done right, where they are a small advantage, great...
If they completely negate most of the main intended challanges of the game... then an extreme no should be said.
If one assumes that it is OK for them to be extremely hugely broken and powerful, but ballanced by taking a very long time to get then NO to the 100th power.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have yet to see a classic MMO where mounted combat was done well.
Usually your mount vanishes as soon as combat sets in which is very cheesy for flying mounts...
But I have the feeling that coding a compelling aerial battle system is not the highest priority of GoWo and without this flying mounts would make not a whole lot of sense.
I say we shouldn't need them for at least 2.5 years. Because the prestige class related to them should require you to hit capstone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You know... I never played it but how was the aerial combat in Aion? I mean you aren't mounted but really the only differences you would probably need to add is the mount animation, and a few abilities related to your mount. There is a 99% chance this game is going to be using auto-aim and skillbars so if it worked well there, it could probably be adapted for here.
Just again, don't make flying mounts common if implemented. I don't want this to be Skies of Golarion Online. XD
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Goblin Squad Member
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You know... I never played it but how was the aerial combat in Aion? I mean you aren't mounted but really the only differences you would probably need to add is the mount animation, and a few abilities related to your mount. There is a 99% chance this game is going to be using auto-aim and skillbars so if it worked well there, it could probably be adapted for here.
Just again, don't make flying mounts common if implemented. I don't want this to be Skies of Golarion Online. XD
And that is where the flaws of flying mounts comes in. Unless a strong enough drawback is put in place, the advantages of flight are far to huge. IE if you make it take 6 months to a year to earn a flying mount, 75% of players will still work towards that, as the PVP advantages and implications are huge, and with flying being more or less uncounterable if you can't fly, once one group can, every other group has to to compeat.
That being said there are plausible drawbacks that could be implimented.
1. High upkeep costs for flying mounts, these have to be made non-trivial for even advanced players, most probably more then 1 individual player can afford, (Assume 5x what the average person's income rate would be, forcing either many people to work and share 1 flyer, or 1 person to only have it 1/5th the time, then save up to get it again).
2. Flying durrations, flying mounts and flying abilities could also be managed by limited durrations, IE 5 minutes of airtime, may take an hour to rest off.
3. Expensive mount, killable mounts, and reasonabe ground to air attacks. If the mount is non-trivially priced to replace, and there were a decent amount of spells or city defenses that could put an element of risk into flying mounts, that also could ballance it out.
I think any one of those 3, could fairly keep flying mounts non-trivial, but also not turn the entire game into skies of golarian. IMO any one time investment (whether that investment is training time, money, quest chain etc), no matter how large, will still lead to a huge issue of 80% of the population seeing it as a necessary investment to be competitive.
Flying has not been done in any fantasy mmo that I know of. The coding alone would be ... interesting.
I seriously doubt we'll see flying combat unless its restrictive in some way or is in it's own instance/dungeon and not allowed elsewhere.
I have to admit that either having a young dragon companion or better yet, being able to play one (I know ... not a good idea) would be awesome.
As for Dire bat farms ... at least there would not be any Stirges (Dire mosquito) around :p
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Goblin Squad Member
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You know... I never played it but how was the aerial combat in Aion?
Very nice, the whole combat system of Aion made for interesting and quite balanced fights between roughly equally equipped people. But a big factor in this was that your flying time was actually limited and thus a valuable resource. You had to touch down quite often (at the lower levels your time of flight was only about 30s which could be expanded to about 2 minutes and more with expensive potions).
I would still be playing it if they didn't do everything they could to drive off all but the most dedicated (i.e. 24/7) players from their so called endgame and limit PvP in a way that caused the open PvP zones to be utterly deserted...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Flying has not been done in any fantasy mmo that I know of. The coding alone would be ... interesting.
Flying has been implemented in Vanguard and WoW at least. I wouldn't be surprised if it's in Rift by now, but I don't know for sure.
Or did you mean to say "flying combat"?
I agree with Onishi that there need to be real restrictions on flying other than making it difficult/slow to acquire if you want to avoid everyone flying everywhere. Personally, I would choose to make it: 1) only possible for short bursts at a time; and 2) extremely expensive. This ensures that it won't be used for casual travel, which I think is what people are after when they say things like "... don't make flying mounts common if implemented. I don't want this to be Skies of Golarion Online."
World Of Warcraft had introduced some flying combat in Wrath of The Lich King - there were some quests, instances and finally raids with flying combat.
Possible ways of limiting flying in PFO:
- flying mounts should have something like fatigue bar that would deplete quite fast - feeding the mount with some sort of special food (rare meat spiced with exotic herbs for example) could give a temporary buff reducing the depletion rate considerably. This limitation would make flying carpets especially valuable.
- flying monsters being common and being attracted by flying mounts if one flies too long.
- flying could be dangerous and unreliable - due to changing weather for example
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am absolutely loving the idea of mounts being killable combined with the idea of making them really time consuming to earn. I like the idea so much that I'm adding a new type of high price contract:
-mount assassination.
Here's the thing about it: you hate someone a little bit, you have their character assassinated. So what? They lose a little gear, feel a bit frustrated, and move on. But you kill their mount that they've spent the last several months earning? Oh **** yes! Now you've sent them a proper message about not ******* with you again.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, once they have the skills developed (which took away from other areas that could have been developed...and now they are at a disadvantage in other areas) it may only be material costs or a much lesser time cost to get another...but I agree...even if you were being sarcastic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How about this.
In order to get the mounted flight skill, you need max level riding. Without max level flying and expensive gear such as saddles, damage taken in the air or sharp maneuvers have a chance to dismount you... with all that entails while you're hurtling through the sky.
They should start at about a 20 times as expensive as a warhorse with gear that is likewise that expensive and have between 5-30 minutes flight time in them with a regeneration rate that takes an hour to get back to full from zero flight time. Running out of flight time should make them glide to the ground. Not plummet.
And yeah, birds eat 3 times their own weight a day. Flying takes a lot of energy, and so flying mounts should be expensive to feed.
Dragons should be nowhere among these basic flying mounts. It should be more along the lines of if you want air support buy some expensive mounts.
Dragon-riders should be a VERY prestigious high end class that specialize in aerial combat.
Pre-requisites:
Capstone in a class with riding as a class skill
Maxed mounted flight
Must know Draconic
Must complete the Dragon-Rider quest
The Dragonrider quest would be an exceedingly difficult quest that with a large amount of travel time and some highly difficult solo parts involved as well. At the end of the quest the character forges a partnership with their dragon and establishes their dragon's hoard. This should cost about as much as a pretty fancy house. Any expensive metal object can be added to it, it just must be of a certain value.
From then on half of any loot you receive from combat related activities goes into that hoard. This means any quest rewards, items looted from enemies or chests while not partied or half the gold you receive while partied. I'm not sure on bounties. I don't want to disincentive dragon-riders from killing bounty targets. You cannot take anything from your dragon's hoard. Ever. (Explanation on how having your friends remove it for you is penalized later on.)
Your dragon's hoard may be put anywhere in the world that it will fit, be it a hideout deep in the darkest woods in the most remote corner of the world, or behind the thick wall's off your kingdom's capitol. It's represented by a generic blob of coins and valuables model that grows as your hoard does. Looting it will either yield all the items that went into it or a random assortment of gold and valuable items if the former would require too much data storage. Just remember... wherever you put it, other players CAN find and raid it.
As long as your dragon's horde is at the starter amount you can ride around on your dragon. It has unlimited flight duration, is much tougher than your normal flying mounts and comes with a breath and claw attack. You can also dismount and your dragon will shape-shift into a henchman or companion depending on it's color and some customization choices you make to continue assisting you in your adventures. As you go offline, you can tell it to guard the hoard. It will then go back to the horde and guard it until you log back on at which point it recalls to you. Recalling it to you takes some time based on your distance from the hoard. However remember that you don't have to send it back when you log off. If you are at the opposite corner of the map adventuring, you may want to just keep it with you.
As the hoard grows your dragons health, armor rating, and attack strength all rise in both dragon and henchman/companion form. It also starts to spawn infant dragons and at certain levels followers or cultists which will help guard the hoard.
Whenever your dragon dies a portion of your horde is lost. This is a set amount, not a percentage, though the set amount my raise a bit as your dragon becomes more powerful. This is expensive but less expensive than losing an actual flying mount, because flying mount riders don't have to worry about a massive lootable hoard sitting somewhere. However its not less expensive if your dragon isn't in dragon form. Part of the penalty of being a dragon-rider. Remember its a partnership ;). If all of the defenders of your hoard are defeated a portion is also lost whether looted or not. (This is so its not a smart idea to have your friends loot your horde for you just to keep it small. And even if you do decide to do so you still take a penalty.)
If you get to below the starting amount of your horde your dragon will lose permanent flight reverting down to 30 minutes flight for an hour regeneration. If you go below half the starting amount of the hoard, your dragon will return to the hoard and guard it until it reaches half its original value again. If the entire hoard is lost, your dragon still is in partnership with you, but it will not return to you until you establish a new hoard.
I think in the end that gives the ability to be a dedicated mounted combatant but the penalties are large enough not everyone is going to rush to be one. Plus the penalties add fun to the game. If there a dragonrider terrorizing the countryside you can track down their hoard and not only put them out of action, but get an awesome payout. Rival dragonriders can track down eachother's hoards to add to their own. Entire raids might be established simply to fight past someone's dragon, infant dragons, and cultists to claim their horde. It makes mounted flight anything but trivial.
I am absolutely loving the idea of mounts being killable combined with the idea of making them really time consuming to earn. I like the idea so much that I'm adding a new type of high price contract:
-mount assassination.
If this makes it in-game you should add hoard looting to your list of contracts. You know you want to get PAID to steal unholy amounts of valuables. XD
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Goblin Squad Member
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Don't forget the spells Fly and Overland Flight also the ones that can transform a person into a Flying creature.
Brooms of Flying, Carpets of Flying, Wings of Flying, Cauldrons that Fly as well. There is a rich tradition of flight in the P&P game to expect flight to be included is not far fetched.
I would fully expect flight to be as dangerous as ground travel with ambushes from many different Ariel monsters maybe even high ranking Rogues with mounts or items.
It would set the Game on its own level to all other mmo's. to have Ariel combat as a standard part of the game.
True, though I will point out that flight isn't exactly an unheard of thing in MMO's these days. Just limiting to games I myself have actually played in the last 5 years or so. Perfect world, FlyFF, Dream of mirror online, WoW's flying mounts. Off the top of my head I think perfect world is the only one I remember specifically having combat while flying, but still that is enough to say flight isn't an inovative selling point that hasn't been tried before.
Also one thing to note, nothing in the P&P game is a guaranteed shoe in to PFO. Wish, Miracle, Dimmension ancor, teleport, plane shift, weird, trap the soul, zone of truth, finger of death, dominate person, greater invisibility, magic jar...
all of those are spells off the top of my head that would be considered common staples in P&P, and yet all of which ones I would say there is a 95% chance they will either not exist in PFO, or be greatly modified if they were to be in the game.
As far as andius's dragon rider concept, I can't say I am entirely opposed to it, but I do have to ask, why is it a set amount and not a percentage lost? The actual flaw of the system is that it does more or less clear the way for one to generate enough consistant income to more or less override the inherant flaws of the cost, which is the only real reservation I would have, assuming the idea were to come into fruition.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As far as andius's dragon rider concept, I can't say I am entirely opposed to it, but I do have to ask, why is it a set amount and not a percentage lost? The actual flaw of the system is that it does more or less clear the way for one to generate enough consistant income to more or less override the inherant flaws of the cost, which is the only real reservation I would have, assuming the idea were to come into fruition.
Because the reality of the system is you are always one looting away from having no hoard. Any semi-competent dragonrider is supposed to increase their hoard over time to the point you could have an old powerful dragonrider sitting on enough wealth to buy a city.
Enclosed within your cities walls could be the wealth of Rome of hidden in your hideout cleverly concealed in a distant land could be El Dorado. While you and your dragon will be quite powerful at that point (Within reason, obviously it's strength does not raise at the same rate as your hoards wealth. I'm thinking it gets a set % increase in strength based off its original strength each time your hoard doubles.) if you amass enough wealth alliances might rise up just to take it from you. People will hunt the map in search of your legendary treasure trove.
And remember this isn't your 2nd checking account. This is your dragon's share of the loot you earn together. You cannot use this wealth. You may not even be able to move this wealth, it just sits there and makes your dragons stronger, and makes people want to come loot it more, and more, and more.
So half the wealth of every enemy you kill, every player you loot, every share of gold you take away from a party ends up in this massive pile that inspires the jealousy of everyone around you, and you can't even use it. THAT is the penalty of a dragon rider. You take on the penalty of a dragon itself. The more successful you are, the more people want to destroy you. While you gain the mobility of flight you have one immobile weakness that EVERYONE is going to be tempted to exploit.
That is why everyone should support this whether you want to be a dragonrider or not. The presence of dragonriders in this game would mean REAL dragon's hordes. Not the crappy ones you see in other games with NPC dragons, but the reality of wealth beyond your wildest dreams sitting there waiting to be looted. If you can find it/defeat it's guardians. And it isn't even broken because it's player generated wealth.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So, PCs can kill the PC-rider and dragon for their horde?
Kind of. They hide their horde somewhere and people can hunt it down in the location where they hid it. So an entire clan on an outing can hunt down your horde even if you are offline, but there will be NPCs to protect it (Infant dragons, followers for metallic dragons and cultists for chromatic dragons. And possibly the dragon itself if you are offline.) Still these will likely be easily overcome once the horde is found, so you are best to find a very good hiding spot or a very secure location such as a fort of well established city owned by your company/kingdom.
Also, what then does that PC do if their dragon dies?
The dragon respawns. I can't get too specific because we don't know much about player respawning yet. However the respawn of the dragon should be equally as inconvenient as a player death would be, such as if a player has to wait 2 minutes and respawns with a debuff, a dragon would have to wait two minutes and respawn with a debuff. Getting back to the player would be as inconvenient as regaining a ranger's companion or a henchman. If they come back, the dragon will come back. If they remain dead until a certain point, the dragon will remain dead until a certain point. Unless those two NPC types perma-die. In which case the player should just have to return to their hoard to find their dragon. And of course some of the hoard is lost.(So that the dragon doesn't become a super-companion that is easier to regain than others.)
I think the fact that everyone (including entire charters on an outing) is always trying to kill you is a good counter balance to being a powerful dragon rider.
Well always trying to hunt down and steal your hoard... though you could make it so that a dragon killed in PVP drops a portion of the hoard that is lost from it dying. That seems pretty reasonable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, I thought you mentioned linking the dragon's strength to the size of its horde. I liked this idea, if your horde is stolen and you must start over building it...your dragon does too.
Yeah that is exactly the intent. You are never so powerful you can't have your hoard hauled away by the cartloads and be back to square one as a dragonrider. Or actually a bit behind since you will have to invest in another hoard to get your dragon back.
Errr... in dragon strength I mean. I'm sure you'll have some skills and merit badges unlocked but the largest determining factor of your dragons actual strength is hoard size. I would think the skills would unlock new abilities related to skills you would use while riding it such more powerful charges or the ability to make sharper turns.