My group is in between chapters 1 and 2 right now, so we're only just getting into the politics. Four of the seven PCs are related to one or another of Brevoy's major Houses or to swordlords of southern Brevoy. At the start of the campaign, they met the group of sponsors who were sending them south. Now, months later (last session), I ran a big gala celebration in Restov on Founders Day Eve, at which the PCs' new barony was publicly announced.
Some of the major events at the gala:
* King Noleski and his sister surprised everyone by showing up.
* Young Lander Lebeda, who will be head of House Lebeda when he comes of age, approached the new Baroness with a quiet request that she let him come to her new court as a Squire. He made it clear that he believes he will be killed before he reaches his majority if he stays in Brevoy. (The PCs are debating whether his mom or his sister is the villain of this piece.) She agreed - setting up future conflicts.
* A delegation of elves from Kyonin showed up, then pretty much ignored the other guests (they don't bother themselves with "mere" humans). However, they were surprisingly friendly to all the PCs. They mentioned that there is a "lost elven site" somewhere in the Greenbelt, and that they hope to claim ownership of it if the PCs can recover it from whatever currently inhabits it.
* A newly-appointed ambassador from Mivon attended, and was very aggressive/obnoxious. One of the PCs approached her, figured out that she is extremely insecure in her new role (after all, her sole qualification was winning the post via dueling), and charmed her. I wasn't expecting this, but Mivon will be a friendly neighbor once the PCs' kingdom extends down that far.
* King Noleski Surtova made a big deal of meeting the new baroness, and granting her an unspecified gift of money and resources for the new barony. (In other words, some of the BPs their kingdom will start with.) This sets up conflict with the sponsors who originally sent the PCs to explore the Greenbelt, who are all supporters of Rostlandic Independence.
We'll just have to see where it goes from there...
You've given me some neat ideas for my own campaign. Thanks.
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It depends on what political situations you want to put your party through. Cintra has some good ideas, however in my opinion I think that those emissaries have arrived a little to soon as word of a new nation needs time to get out (unless invites or high magic was used), and travel time. Of course there is no right or wrong way as long as it works.
For the group that I was running the Baroness of the new kingdom was a Surtova. However she was not directly related to King Noleski (her father was second cousin to him), and ran away from her father due to her not wanting to be in a pre-arranged marriage. Her father of course was furious, but did not know exactly where his daughter ran off to. Of course he sends out scouts to find her, but she is smart enough to evade them. Note that the campaign I was running is low magic, it is there but casters are not like Subway...all over the place. The kingdom is founded, and word gets back to him. All the while the various political maneuverings between the houses are taking place between books 1-3. The father is to busy due to these maneuverings to directly confront and return her to "her proper place". So instead he sends a cousin (that the player character hates) to retrieve her, and claim the new kingdom as a province for the Surtovas. I wasn't planning on any of the powers that be to pay any interest in the new kingdom at first simply due to others trying to establish a kingdom there and failing. Plus it takes some time for the infrastructure to get into place ('i.e. roads, exports, etc.) for neighboring kingdoms to send diplomats over.
It depends on what political situations you want to put your party through. Cintra has some good ideas, however in my opinion I think that those emissaries have arrived a little to soon as word of a new nation needs time to get out (unless invites or high magic was used), and travel time. Of course there is no right or wrong way as long as it works.
You're absolutely right. I should have made it clearer - the PCs' public recognition was just one of MANY events that were included at an already-scheduled gala at the Lord Mayor's official residence in Restov. My players and their PCs clearly understood that for most of the people there, the PCs' new barony was pretty much irrelevant. Most party-goers were trying to arrange good matches for their marriageable offspring, or to be seen by the right people, etc. And even so, the king's recognition of them was more a political maneuver against the successionists (Rostlanders for Independence) than it was any actual respect for the PCs.
No actual diplomats will set up residence in the new barony until the PCs build up enough to add an Embassy district...
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Cintra does have good ideas. I wasn't disregarding any of them, as the last thing I want to do is criticize others brashly for ideas. She did clear up for me that many events have taken place prior to the Big Gala Event of Founder's Day. I also did mention that there are no right or wrong ways as long as the players go with it.
For myself here are the questions I would have as a player with the information that I know so far. Perhaps the points I make might help...or not.
King Noleski and his sister surprised everyone by showing up.
This would get a big Why out of me and instant suspicion. The reason is the Stolen Lands have had way to many try to establish a kingdom there, and fail. I understand the overall concept that is trying to be established here, that of the King basically placing a warning to the Lord Mayor Sellemius, Swordlord Aldori, and any other local nobles that he is not only aware of their plans, but is now actively watching. A representative of the Crown itself would have sufficed, as the new kingdom has yet to establish themselves at all, let alone survive one winter.
Young Lander Lebeda, who will be head of House Lebeda when he comes of age, approached the new Baroness with a quiet request that she let him come to her new court as a Squire. He made it clear that he believes he will be killed before he reaches his majority if he stays in Brevoy. (The PCs are debating whether his mom or his sister is the villain of this piece.) She agreed - setting up future conflicts.
The issue here is how is the new Baroness to gain custody? By rights the Dame can simply refuse any request that the Baroness makes. The refusal itself would be in bounds and the Baroness herself is unproven. This once again falls on the fact that the kingdom itself is not established, and the Baroness is unknown by reputation. Only time itself will define the character of the Baroness by her actions. It is a plot point however to get the pcs involved in the politics, it is just a matter of how they execute gaining custody of the boy.
A delegation of elves from Kyonin showed up, then pretty much ignored the other guests (they don't bother themselves with "mere" humans). However, they were surprisingly friendly to all the PCs. They mentioned that there is a "lost elven site" somewhere in the Greenbelt, and that they hope to claim ownership of it if the PCs can recover it from whatever currently inhabits it.
Once again a big Why would be coming from me. The first is that Kyonin is roughly 500-600 miles away. If this is a simple outpost what do they claim to accomplish by reclaiming the ruins? The second is why the sudden interest in the ruins? The elves at any time could have come to reclaim that ruin if they so wished, but they have problems of their own, and as such their must be a very important reason to why their interest is stirred. I understand out of game that the purpose is an adventure hook to get the PCs interested in the ruins, and find it quite funny that the elves want the PCs to recover the ruins for them to claim.
A newly-appointed ambassador from Mivon attended, and was very aggressive/obnoxious. One of the PCs approached her, figured out that she is extremely insecure in her new role (after all, her sole qualification was winning the post via dueling), and charmed her. I wasn't expecting this, but Mivon will be a friendly neighbor once the PCs' kingdom extends down that far.
This one to me makes the most sense. The issue however comes back to the kingdom being to new to be of any importance.
The PC's new barony is due to be a player in any expected succession crisis and a competitor for offices and promotions among the court.
Here I respectfully disagree. The new barony first is its own separate nation (pg 6, Rivers Run Red), and as such are not part of the Court of Bevroy or subjected to their laws. Second the barony needs to survive and stand on its own. It needs the time required for the PCS to develop the nation. As such they have no leverage to negotiate politically, and have yet to even establish a military. At the state that the barony is currently in (Day 1), it is no more than a novelty for the Court to gossip about. However given time they might...might become a player. However they dont need to be if they choose not to.
Brevoy regards the stolen lands, and any habitations located therein, as part of the kingdom. They just haven't settled the area. The charter allowing the formation of the kingdom says it is by the authority of the Dragonscale Throne. The new barony is not legally under the domain of the Lord of Restov, to prevent the Regent and Issia in general from getting too suspicious, but is still the still legally under the Dragonscale Throne. Thus, she is called Baroness, but is a de facto queen, until some proves otherwise.
King Noleski and his sister showing up are a very public way of saying 'This is mine.' His presense validates the baroness claim to power, but also suborns her to the throne.
That's what I think.
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You are correct to a point Lloyd.
The charter in Stolen Lands is for exploration and travel, and is granted by the authority of the Dragonscale Throne.
In Rivers Run Red. I would agree with you with the exception of the following that is on the second charter.
"The nature and laws of rule are theirs to define, and the wellbeing of this new nation is theirs to protect. In accordance for providing a stable nation to the south of central Rostland, let there be a generous stipend... provided to this fledgling nation as a token of Restov and Brevoy's goodwill, such that future relations between kingdoms might be mutually beneficial."
This portion is stating that it is a new kingdom. If this area of land was part of the kingdom then the word "Nation" would be providence (or something similar). Also the pcs would not be able to have their own laws, as only a King or Queen has the power to make law.
The second charter is witnessed by the Lordship of Restov and the authority granted by Lord Noleski. This is simliar to a notary taking place.
Here is what is occurring...
Restov does not see Noleski as the King, but as the Regent. This viewpoint is the same with House Orlovsky. This along with other politics, is increasing the tension to the North. Add to this the recent increase in agression and banditry to the South. As such Restov is attempting to create four puppet kingdoms that are beholden to Restov in order to take care of two problems at once. The puppet kingdoms will bring under control the aggression in the South, and add additional resources and political power to Restov, through various treaties with said kingdoms. At least this is what the ruling body hopes to accomplish (see pg 7 of Stolen Lands). All of this is being done as quietly as possible, with the airs of it all being done to address the banditry issue, as well as open trade routes and such.
At this point Noleski should have no idea what is really occurring unless there is a spy or such in place to inform him. Even so he might disregard the information due to other events taking place that he might deem more important. By the time Rivers Run Red starts up is when he should hear about what is occurings, but that might be to late for him to do much, as the winter storms should be setting in hampering any reaction (unless magic is involved to send a representative. With what has been mentioned by Cintra it seems that there is an informant or such in place to alert Noleski. Even as such Noleski still might not act.
The Stolen Lands have a history of failed kingdoms, and by Restov assisting the PCs and the three other parties, they are in essence weakening their resources (initial BP awarded to the kingdoms). Here is where a GM call would of course take place, and if it works then great. Remember however that there are other issues taking place in Bevroy that do require Noleski's attention. By traveling to Restov he is in essence handing over that responsibility over to someone else during that time period just in order to deliver a warning. Thus why I see a representative would work better there.
Of course we as GMs can change the storyline how we see fit. If any of us want things to work in favor of one way over the other then awesome. However there will need to be changes made to certain plot points to cover those changes, like the word Nation and Kingdom switched over to Province and such.
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You are correct to a point Lloyd.
The charter in Stolen Lands is for exploration and travel, and is granted by the authority of the Dragonscale Throne.
In Rivers Run Red. I would agree with you with the exception of the following that is on the second charter.
"The nature and laws of rule are theirs to define, and the wellbeing of this new nation is theirs to protect. In accordance for providing a stable nation to the south of central Rostland, let there be a generous stipend... provided to this fledgling nation as a token of Restov and Brevoy's goodwill, such that future relations between kingdoms might be mutually beneficial."
This portion is stating that it is a new kingdom. If this area of land was part of the kingdom then the word "Nation" would be providence (or something similar). Also the pcs would not be able to have their own laws, as only a King or Queen has the power to make law.
The second charter is witnessed by the Lordship of Restov and the authority granted by Lord Noleski. This is simliar to a notary taking place.
Here is what is occurring... ** spoiler omitted **...
Well said!
A representative does make more sense. With all the tension at home, Noleski is unlikely to risk leaving capital, unless, as you said, there is magic involved. As the ruler of a nation, even a relatively poor one, that shouldn't be a problem.
I'll still argue Noleski has a fairly solid claim to the barony. The stolen lands is so named because Brevoy considers it theirs. At a guess, the Throne hasn't given the Mayor of Restov authority to carve off bits of kingdom into independent states, even if said bits have traditionally been empty wilderness. A very logical situation is to have Noleski, or his representative, approach the PCs with a proposal: submit or die. It would probably more tactful than this. More along the lines of "The Regent of the Dragonscale throne congratulates you on your recent successes in establishing order in the southernmost reaches of the realm." If Noleski is there in person, "On this most auspicious day, the baroness will take her oath of loyalty and rise as the newest member of the nobility, and head of our newest house. We will be sending a company of crown knights to aid the Baroness in taming these savage lands and making them safe for the people of Brevoy."
Now do the PCs submit, at least nominally, to the Regent or do they risk open war? Decisions, decisions.
Depending on how my players feel, I may try this out on them.
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There was little chance that GoT would not seep into my KM campaign!
Watching the show and even more influential to my game (and highly recommended) was listening to the audio books!
Prior to the start of book one, I decided that ramping up the political intrigue and over-all story arch relevance would compliment my player's styles quite well. I mapped out four main story arcs above and beyond the books. I also mapped a dozen sub-plots and their catalyst events.
As we moved from book to book in the AP, my players always seemed to be make key preparations and repairs in the kingdom that resulted in significant effects/outcomes in future books.
I rewarded them in a variety of ways (i.e. BP, Alliances, Free Builds).
Due to the PC's success, they pinged hard and early on Brevoy's radar.
I had the Dragon Throne send an army to siege Restov during the negotiations that followed. My PC's had established a decent information network inside Retov.
When the siege began, the bird songs stopped reaching them and they were forced to speculate and wonder.
[There's a ton of potential Political RP goodness by fleshing out the relationship between Brevoy and Restov and winding it into your tale!]
I introduced Mivon as a major player in the tale, leveraging aid to the PC's kingdom in exchange an alliance against Pitax.
My PC's sent an Ambassador to negotiate and eventually hire a band of River Bandits to become a Privateer Navy for their kingdom.
This increased stability for commerce and trade as well as strengthening their southern border. This also created a physical channel for disgruntled Nobles in Pitax to reach out them.
I don't know that I would ever want to insert 100% of George's story into Golarion, but its influence has introduced gritty realism and spotlighted the human condition in my game.
Cheers!
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There was little chance that GoT would not seep into my KM campaign!
Watching the show and even more influential to my game (and highly recommended) was listening to the audio books!Prior to the start of book one, I decided that ramping up the political intrigue and over-all story arch relevance would compliment my player's styles quite well. I mapped out four main story arcs above and beyond the books. I also mapped a dozen sub-plots and their catalyst events.
As we moved from book to book in the AP, my players always seemed to be make key preparations and repairs in the kingdom that resulted in significant effects/outcomes in future books.
I rewarded them in a variety of ways (i.e. BP, Alliances, Free Builds).Due to the PC's success, they pinged hard and early on Brevoy's radar.
I had the Dragon Throne send an army to siege Restov during the negotiations that followed. My PC's had established a decent information network inside Retov.
When the siege began, the bird songs stopped reaching them and they were forced to speculate and wonder.
[There's a ton of potential Political RP goodness by fleshing out the relationship between Brevoy and Restov and winding it into your tale!]I introduced Mivon as a major player in the tale, leveraging aid to the PC's kingdom in exchange an alliance against Pitax.
My PC's sent an Ambassador to negotiate and eventually hire a band of River Bandits to become a Privateer Navy for their kingdom.
This increased stability for commerce and trade as well as strengthening their southern border. This also created a physical channel for disgruntled Nobles in Pitax to reach out them.I don't know that I would ever want to insert 100% of George's story into Golarion, but its influence has introduced gritty realism and spotlighted the human condition in my game.
Cheers!
Man, I'm just not as good at inserting the political parts into the story. My acting skills leave a lot to be desired. Even though my pcs would enjoy it.
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I'll still argue Noleski has a fairly solid claim to the barony.
You are correct. Restov overstepped their authority, and they know it. Thus the reason why they are saying that the expeditions are to clear the trade routes and deal with banditry, all the while keeping things on the down low of the puppet nations.
Even if Noleski didn't see the actual land as part of Bevroy it is still his subjects and the crown's resources (in his eyes) that are being used to fund the pet projects. You are also correct in how Noleski (with Natala's insistence) would deal with the "Puppet Kingdoms". He does have only a few options. The first of course is what you stated. Bend the knee or die. This is most likely the riskiest move that Noleski can make. The winter storms are approaching and he will need to get his men gathered for the minor battle. The soonest he will be able to move would be in the Spring (with the rains). If word gets out to the other Lords they to would have time to prepare and possibly stage a coup. Noleski would then be forced into fighting two battles. If the PC's bend the knee (my money is that they will not) Noleski will then have another House to worry about and to deal with. He then needs to decide if the commoners in power are worth keeping in place, or to appoint someone he chooses into power.
Another option is for him to acknowledge the new nation and woo it. Switch the mindset of both the Lords and the people into believing that he is the better friend to the kingdom, and to make certain political deals (trade, marriages, etc) that bind the new nation to him. Basically bind the new nation to him like a constrictor. He also has the luxury of waiting to see what occurs with the new nation and if it is worth dealing with immediately.
Now here is where I wished both Noleski and Natala were fleshed out a little more (might start a new thread on just them). Noleski is Neutral, with Natala being Lawful Evil. We know Natala likes being Queen. The question then becomes how much does she love her brother, and how intelligent is she to manipulate him.
Azmyth, it seems you have a firm control on the politics going on. Has House Orlovsky launch some sort of counter attack? (BTW nothing beats the Fire and Ice books themselves...including the tapes) :)
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The political aspect can be done behind the scenes for the players. The mods basically exclude the politics directly. From what I have been reading right after Varn Vanishing is when things start to get into a low boil (I dont have the last three mods as of yet). The focus for the PCs should be shifting southward to deal with Pitax and then the hidden Big Bad. So technically you can do whatever you would like with Bevroy, and just have the news travel south to what is occurring.
Fleshing out the Surtova siblings sounds like a good/fun idea.
If I were Noleski, I'd choose winter over spring. Winter isn't a fun time to campaign, but it is easier to spare people and move things around. Sufficient snow allows sleighs, and wagons move just fine over frozen ground. Spring, depending on the weather, ground, etc, could easily turn into a nightmare of mud. *shudder* If the winter isn't a viable option, then summer or fall are more likely times.
Acknowledgement followed by wooing is an option, but why would this be more attractive than 'kneel or die'? A small force of 100-200 troops should be more than enough to overcome the barony's forces, but shouldn't significantly weaken the Surtova's control. If they kneel, then the wooing can begin in ernest. If they resist, the position can be filled by a Surtovan, or member of an friendly house, perhaps Lebeda.
Assuming the wooing begins, who/what do you think would be used for the deals? Neither Noleski nor Natala are married, but would the upstarts be enough to interest them. If not them, who?
Acknowledgement followed by wooing is an option, but why would this be more attractive than 'kneel or die'? A small force of 100-200 troops should be more than enough to overcome the barony's forces, but shouldn't significantly weaken the Surtova's control. If they kneel, then the wooing can begin in ernest. If they resist, the position can be filled by a Surtovan, or member of an friendly house, perhaps Lebeda.
First Carrot, then stick. ALWAYS. Repeat after me. CARROT. THEN STICK.
Why? Because if someone accepts the carrot, they have taken YOUR Carrot & everyone knows it. Further, it fits with House Surtova's Modus Operandi: They are where they are in Brevoy because they were the first to play nice with Choral the Conqueror.
Military history is RIFE with supposedly simple, easy campaigns that should have been effective cakewalks turning into a bloody sluice-way of loss & failure.
Finally, if you start with the sweet you can always switch to sour if circumstances require it. The opposite, not so much...
These being the case, refer to my opening statement.
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If I were Noleski, I'd choose winter over spring. Winter isn't a fun time to campaign, but it is easier to spare people and move things around. Sufficient snow allows sleighs, and wagons move just fine over frozen ground. Spring, depending on the weather, ground, etc, could easily turn into a nightmare of mud. *shudder* If the winter isn't a viable option, then summer or fall are more likely times.
Acknowledgement followed by wooing is an option, but why would this be more attractive than 'kneel or die'? A small force of 100-200 troops should be more than enough to overcome the barony's forces, but shouldn't significantly weaken the Surtova's control. If they kneel, then the wooing can begin in ernest. If they resist, the position can be filled by a Surtovan, or member of an friendly house, perhaps Lebeda.
Irnk is dead on as to why. It is the velvet glove/iron fist approach. If you use the iron fist you cannot use the velvet glove. However the reverse doesn't hold true.
Also what Irnk mentioned is that small force might get decimated. You are correct to a point about an army having some ease to move during Winter. However it really isn't that easy. History has also proven that most war campaigns stop when Winter comes about. The reason is not only due to the weather itself (Blizzards can be down right nasty), but also logistics. How are you going to keep those soldiers fed and warm? A good example of this is what occurred with Washington while fighting the British. Granted Washington did not have a King to help assist with supply lines and such, but the weather itself took a toil on the troops, causing frostbite. Even with all of this those same troops will be going into a land that they are not familiar with, and against people who just started a new life. Chances are guerrilla fighting would break out and destroy such a small force.
Assuming the wooing begins, who/what do you think would be used for the deals? Neither Noleski nor Natala are married, but would the upstarts be enough to interest them. If not them, who?
That all depends on how you want to approach the PCs. A representative of the Crown of course would be the one to approach them. This representative of course would be an aristocrat and intelligent. Could be a minor lord, or a distant family member of the PCs (background permitting). Marriage doesn't need to occur, but a trade pack of sorts followed by either a non-aggression pact, or a mutual defense pact should suffice. It all depends on how you perceive Noleski's personality and wants to be. If the overall goal is for him to claim the PC's kingdom he would do as mentioned, while slowly getting his men-at arms in place into that kingdom, as well as a trusted general. Then seize the capital while the PCs are out. When they come back they either have to fight to reclaim, or bend the knee. It also depends on how you want Natala to be. Considering she is Lawful Evil while her brother is Neutral has me believing that she is actually the true power behind the throne. I don't see either one however marrying the PCs, unless you want Noleski to be quite intelligent and realize what Natala is trying to accomplish. Then by all means have Noleski marry off his sister to the new leader of the kingdom as a sign of "friendship and love".
Glad to see I am not the only one doing this.
What has been said here is basically the same thing going on in the background of my own Kingmaker game!
Great minds think alike!