Fighting Massive Creatures

[Ragnarok Aeon]

While the general rules for player characters going against humanoids or beasts their own size is okay, I've always felt the fights against towers of creatures to clash with how I want to run the game. When a fighter stands there and full attacks a dragon's claws or knees, it bothers me. I want my players to climb the massive beast and hit vital spots, I guess similar to Shadow of Colossus. Sure you could just describe it that way, but it leaves causes too much of a difference between what's happening mechanically and what's happening narratively; for example, a player should have to use the climb skill to actually climb, they should also be able to avoid attacks depending on where they've climbed to. How should you represent a colossal creature leaving open a vital spot in response to an attack? Are there any alternate rules to running giant beasts out there? Should I just give up trying to run this in Pathfinder, if so what system should I use?

[Netherek]

I am curious too, I've never had this come up yet in my games but have always wanted to have a battle with a creature that is beyond the scale like The Kraken. Not sure how to do it though.

[Detect Magic]

I once played a Final Fantasy D20 in which my moogle dragon knight climbed atop a colossal wyvern (the progenitor of its species, actually).

My character had to succeed Climb checks (no small task for a small character!) each round to progress and move further along his spine. Every couple rounds when the beast performed some sort of aerial maneuver, my character had to succeed a Climb checks to hold on.

He got one attack each round, and since he was using a piercing weapon (a spear-lance hybrid) I believe he bypassed the creature's scaly hide (and thus its DR).

I remember my character falling a couple times, but he was able to grab and climb further each time.

At one point the wyvern managed to thrash hard enough that my character was thrown off its back, at which point they battled mid-air (DBZ style; visualize that for a moment... Small sized creature vs. colossal dragon-like creature), little moogle wings flapping vigorously. My DM let me roll Fly checks to perform aerial dive attacks in pursuit of the wyvern. With one such attack my character managed to pierce its side and hold on, soaring through the sky with the beast once again.

In desperation, the wyvern breathed a massive plume of fire into the distance, and dived into it, dealing damage to the both of us. My character managed to survive, but the creature did not. It's sort of hard to do so with a lance protruding from underneath your scaly breast. Yea, stabbed him in the heart. Was an awesome kill.

Oh, and then my dragon knight rode his carcass as it plummeted to the earth, taking massive fall damage in the process. Barely survived.

Anyways, it's definitely possible to run a Shadow of the Colossus type encounter. We did, and no, we didn't use a battle mat. It was done via descriptive narrative.

[Ope]

Well, for some creatures (giants) I always pictured it as a blow to the leg which brings him down to one knee granting access to his torso and more critical areas. One could even imagine the first several hits are to its legs and you bring it down slowly in hit points and literally.

For larger opponents, you pose an interesting idea. One could imagine a character striking at a dragon's legs and or underside. One also has to keep in mind, when the dragon attacks (especially bites) it opens itself up to attacks by a character to the head and neck. So, a character doesn't necessarily have to climb atop a dragon to deal significant damage to it. However, if a character wanted to use climb to get on top, I'd allow it. Although, climbing up a living creature would not be easy.

[Malignor]

I dunno. If a tiny person walked up and shoved a little knife into the main artery of your leg, or severed your Achilles tendon, I'd call that some real friggin damage.

Aside from that, the killing blow is done in a round of activity.
Give the deliverer or said blow a 6-second cut-scene of awesomeness:

"He severs the dragon's foreleg tendon, causing it to fall. As it descends, the warrior braces himself and impales the beast's falling head on his sword."

See? No movement there. No climbing.

I see HP as both the ability to take minor damage, and luck in avoiding a telling blow. Any time you take HP, you're burning up luck and avoiding that fatal mistake. The moment you're at 0hp or less, you got pwned all at once in that 6 seconds of combat.

Try describing damage as narrow scrapes and minor bruises, as the combatant uses a mix of armor, skill and experience to make all blows (including energy damage) little more than an "ouch". AC means it was easily mitigate. HP (no matter how many HP) means it was narrowly escaped with a minor cut/bruise/burn. The more HP done, the more edge-of-your-seat the avoidance was.

Now if only healing magic and healing rules jived with this idea :P

[Thomas LeBlanc]

This has been done before, after Shadow of the Colossus was released. Someone had recreated all the bosses on hex maps and the system was not for d20.

This is how I would recreate the system:
1) Create a creature map.

2) Mark squares by climbability. DC listed in the middle of each square. (e.g. C15)

• impossible to climb (crosshatched)
  
• difficult terrain climb (triangle) {may not be needed}
  
• normal climb (circle)

3) The hit chances would use color to mark each square.

• creature can attack you (red colored square)
  
• vital spot/creature can attack you (yellow color)
  
• vital spot/creatue can not attack you (green color)
  
• creature can not attack you/no special damage (no coloring)

4) List the Acrobatics DC for areas the character may stand. (e.g. A12)

• standing spot (no marking)

The normal Climb rules would be used, except difficult squares (slippery, climbing through heavy hair, sharp bits, etc) could only be climbed 5 feet per move action with a +5 to the DC or half movement if you had a climb speed. I would also create a new Acrobatics check that requires a DC 20 check to jump (using arms and legs to move character, DC 40 if only arms or legs used) over a 5 foot square while climbing as a move action. Depending on the action/movement of the creature, you could list both Acrobatics and Climb checks.

[Some call me Tim]

I don't know of any rule sets but I would create a set of skill checks that would mimic certain actions you might want to try. Each would get a DC and would grant a certain bonus on success.

For example:

Jump DC 20 would allow you to jump on Dragon's Back.
or
Climb DC 20 would allow you to climb on the Dragon's back
--+2 circumstance bonus to hit
--dragon can't wing buffet, DC 20 balance check each round.

Acrobatics DC 25 to roll under dragon to get to soft underbelly
--+2 circumstance bonus to hit, sneak attack or auto crit
--dragon gets free slam attack.

Perception DC 30 to spot 'chink in the armor.'
--one carefully aimed shot as full round action which is an automatic critical if it hits.

Ride DC 30 ride a dragon by grabbing its neck.
--dragon can't bite or claw you, one handed weapon only.
--successful attack prevents breath weapon for 1d4 rounds.

Add more and balance DCs to skill levels and dragon.

You start to tread on called shots and combat maneuvers but since this is a seldom encountered beastie and you want it to seem epic you need to spice it up some.

[Ragnarok Aeon]

Thomas LeBlanc wrote:

This has been done before, after Shadow of the Colossus was released. Someone had recreated all the bosses on hex maps and the system was not for d20.

This is how I would recreate the system:
1) Create a creature map.

2) Mark squares by climbability. DC listed in the middle of each square. (e.g. C15)

• impossible to climb (crosshatched)
  
• difficult terrain climb (triangle) {may not be needed}
  
• normal climb (circle)

3) The hit chances would use color to mark each square.

• creature can attack you (red colored square)
  
• vital spot/creature can attack you (yellow color)
  
• vital spot/creatue can not attack you (green color)
  
• creature can not attack you/no special damage (no coloring)

4) List the Acrobatics DC for areas the character may stand. (e.g. A12)

• standing spot (no marking)

The normal Climb rules would be used, except difficult squares (slippery, climbing through heavy hair, sharp bits, etc) could only be climbed 5 feet per move action with a +5 to the DC or half movement if you had a climb speed. I would also create a new Acrobatics check that requires a DC 20 check to jump (using arms and legs to move character, DC 40 if only arms or legs used) over a 5 foot square while climbing as a move action. Depending on the action/movement of the creature, you could list both Acrobatics and Climb checks.

That actually sounds really cool, I didn't actually think of giving the creature a map, but it sounds like a pretty eloquent way to handle the encounter.

[Thomas LeBlanc]

Ragnarok Aeon wrote:

That actually sounds really cool, I didn't actually think of giving the creature a map, but it sounds like a pretty eloquent way to handle the encounter.

You could make two maps. One on the table and another formed into the monster, easier to do with hex...

[Ragnarok Aeon]

Thomas LeBlanc wrote:

Ragnarok Aeon wrote:

That actually sounds really cool, I didn't actually think of giving the creature a map, but it sounds like a pretty eloquent way to handle the encounter.

You could make two maps. One on the table and another formed into the monster, easier to do with hex...

I actually already had those thoughts.

BTW, do you happen to have links to the SotC maps? I'd like to gain inspiration from them.

[cranewings]

Ragnarok Aeon wrote:

While the general rules for player characters going against humanoids or beasts their own size is okay, I've always felt the fights against towers of creatures to clash with how I want to run the game. When a fighter stands there and full attacks a dragon's claws or knees, it bothers me. I want my players to climb the massive beast and hit vital spots, I guess similar to Shadow of Colossus. Sure you could just describe it that way, but it leaves causes too much of a difference between what's happening mechanically and what's happening narratively; for example, a player should have to use the climb skill to actually climb, they should also be able to avoid attacks depending on where they've climbed to. How should you represent a colossal creature leaving open a vital spot in response to an attack? Are there any alternate rules to running giant beasts out there? Should I just give up trying to run this in Pathfinder, if so what system should I use?

We have always played it the way you are suggesting. The rules are a guide. The players say what they want to do and the gm tells them what to roll. The gm invents whatever effect he wants. Description is key. Fairness comes from being impartial and taking cues from the book on the size of benefits. That's it.

[Thomas LeBlanc]

Ragnarok Aeon wrote:

BTW, do you happen to have links to the SotC maps? I'd like to gain inspiration from them.

No. But I think I might have 1 or 2 laying around. I will look for them as I unpack this week.