Requested Product: NPC Handbook


Product Discussion


This may seem like an odd suggestion for a product, but as a regular DM, I find that when I make NPC's that are supposed to be common folk, a lot of the feats seem a bit more than I want them to be. Also, when you think of a Commoner as typically having very average stats (8-10), a large number of feats become barred for them anyway.

Something I'd like to see, as a sort of niche product for DM's is a handbook that gives special rules, feats, class adjustments and the like for use when making NPC's that are not supposed to be heroic or even especially trained. It would be great to have a list of feats that are built for use by people who are supposed to be farmers, blacksmiths, tavern-workers, etc.

Overall, I'm sure this may seem like a silly request, but I think it would greatly improve the flow of things. Having a farmer as a only a 5th Level Commoner does is intended to show that this is someone who has no skill at combat, magic or any of the other things that make the Player Classes what they are. But when that 5th level NPC is taking feats like Dodge, Improved Initiative, Combat Expertise, and Weapon Focus, suddenly that dents the idea.

I know that Feats that are supposed to give bonuses to Skills would be the first idea that comes to mind, but if your NPC isn't supposed to be a super skilled person either, that also begins to make a problem.

In my mind's eye, these would be feats and rules that would be fit for characters of a non-heroic and would likely not be powerful enough to interest a Heroic PC, however, with a little rules application (Maybe an NPC feat is the equivalent of a trait, which means a PC could take one in place of a trait or take two in place of feat) they could become an interesting aspect for Players who want to say that their Fighter was originally a blacksmith or baker, who got launched onto the road of hero due to some dramatic circumstance.

I know this was likely way to long-winded, but I wanted to state my thoughts. Hopefully the makers of this awesome game will read through this idea and consider it.

Thanks for your time.


I will add a NPC class with a Reflex save instead of Will and an Arcane spellcasting NPC class to the wishlist.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Why is your farmer 5th level? The problem goes away if he's only first level. The reason feats tend to be actually useful is the game is skewed toward adventurers. If you want to make lame NPCs, you don't have to give them the max feats.

On the other hand, I can always use more gallery of NPC books.


Yeah, I don't think I understand. Farmers aren't 5th level. Farmers are 1st level.

To be honest, I think the idea that there's a Commoner class that goes for 20 levels to be ridiculous. Commoners don't get to level 20. I'd wager 99% of them don't even get to level 2.

Further, what exactly is your goal in statting out commoners anyway? Are your PCs murdering them or something? Their stats shouldn't matter for anything.


There is no right or wrong level for NPCs. Some people (like me) prefer to keep them low-level. Most are 1st, and 5th level is someone special that histroy will remember (like Einstein.) Others prefer the demographics as presented in the 3.5 DMG, where even the smallest thorp had on average a 7th level commoner, and most metropolises had a few epic level commoners (highest level commoner you could generate in a metropolis was level 28).

If a 5th level farmer is typical in a setting, thats fine. I prefer my farmers to be 1st or second level though.


look at NPC gallery from GameMAstery Guide, by the way the NPC feats equivalent as a half feat that you mentioned are Traits


Jeraa wrote:
There is no right or wrong level for NPCs. Some people (like me) prefer to keep them low-level. Most are 1st, and 5th level is someone special that histroy will remember (like Einstein.) Others prefer the demographics as presented in the 3.5 DMG, where even the smallest thorp had on average a 7th level commoner, and most metropolises had a few epic level commoners (highest level commoner you could generate in a metropolis was level 28).

What the heck? What did these Commoners do to earn that kind of XP without adventuring (and thus gaining a useful class)?


I don't think I'd buy this if it were offered.

I mean, why not just give them traits that already exist? Just use the crunch of an existing trait and change the fluff if you feel compelled to give a reason for it.


mplindustries wrote:


What the heck? What did these Commoners do to earn that kind of XP without adventuring (and thus gaining a useful class)?

.

.
Deck of Many things, Role-playing XP (doing what they are supposed to do; crafting, hiding from tough monsters/enemies, fighting amongst themselves (fights where unconciousness/surendering are also victory conditions)), training XP, getting 1 XP for surviving another day, etc...


Quote:
What the heck? What did these Commoners do to earn that kind of XP without adventuring (and thus gaining a useful class)?

Simple. NPCs don't care about experience points. They have whatever level they need to. The DMG made no attempt to explain it, just that they existed.

But yeah, like Void Munchkin said. Story rewards, roleplaying XP. Some combat XP (saving the flock of sheep from the wolf). At least, those are good explanitions for the mid-level NPC. Level 28 commoners needed more explanation though, which WotC never tried to do.


Void Munchkin wrote:
Deck of Many things, Role-playing XP (doing what they are supposed to do; crafting, hiding from tough monsters/enemies, fighting amongst themselves (fights where unconciousness/surendering are also victory conditions)), training XP, getting 1 XP for surviving another day, etc...

A level 28 character has 378,000 XP. Come on, you can't seriously be defending level 20+ Commoners, even if you may think some of them might make it to 5th level.

Jeraa wrote:
Simple. NPCs don't care about experience points. They have whatever level they need to. The DMG made no attempt to explain it, just that they existed.

Ok, this is actually totally fair. So tell me, what reason would a Commoner "need" to be level 28? Or even level 10?


mplindustries wrote:
Void Munchkin wrote:
Deck of Many things, Role-playing XP (doing what they are supposed to do; crafting, hiding from tough monsters/enemies, fighting amongst themselves (fights where unconciousness/surendering are also victory conditions)), training XP, getting 1 XP for surviving another day, etc...

A level 28 character has 378,000 XP. Come on, you can't seriously be defending level 20+ Commoners, even if you may think some of them might make it to 5th level.

.

.
You got the exp part way wrong


Void Munchkin wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
Void Munchkin wrote:
Deck of Many things, Role-playing XP (doing what they are supposed to do; crafting, hiding from tough monsters/enemies, fighting amongst themselves (fights where unconciousness/surendering are also victory conditions)), training XP, getting 1 XP for surviving another day, etc...

A level 28 character has 378,000 XP. Come on, you can't seriously be defending level 20+ Commoners, even if you may think some of them might make it to 5th level.

.

.
You got the exp part way wrong

Sorry, I just opened my Epic Level Handbook. Since there were no epic level rules in Pathfinder that I knew of, I didn't look there. Actually, I now realize I've never looked there--why did they change XP progression? Weird.

So, then a level 28 Commoner needs a ridiculously higher amount of XP than the already ridiculously high number I gave.


If you don't want level 28 commoners in your game you don't have to, beside, I think it was written somewhere (in 3.5) that the NPC classes can't go above 20.


mplindustries wrote:
Actually, I now realize I've never looked there--why did they change XP progression? Weird.

The XP table was never OGL'd/SRD'd. It's not free to use. Or so I understand. [I didn't think you could copyright a math formula...]


Starting wealth for PC using NPC classes.


mplindustries wrote:
Jeraa wrote:
There is no right or wrong level for NPCs. Some people (like me) prefer to keep them low-level. Most are 1st, and 5th level is someone special that histroy will remember (like Einstein.) Others prefer the demographics as presented in the 3.5 DMG, where even the smallest thorp had on average a 7th level commoner, and most metropolises had a few epic level commoners (highest level commoner you could generate in a metropolis was level 28).
What the heck? What did these Commoners do to earn that kind of XP without adventuring (and thus gaining a useful class)?

That would be the winter animal culling (and herding), at least for farmers and villagers.

When your average herdbeasts and domestic animals run from CR1 pigs to CR 4 bison, even a 7th level farmer has a challenge if they want meat to eat/sell.

Dark Archive

mplindustries wrote:
Actually, I now realize I've never looked there--why did they change XP progression? Weird.
Distant Scholar wrote:
The XP table was never OGL'd/SRD'd. It's not free to use. Or so I understand. [I didn't think you could copyright a math formula...]

You can't copyright the formula, but the layout of the table can be copyrighted.

But copyright isnt the problem. Essentially, by agreeing to use the OGL, and have access to the stuff it allows that *IS* copyrighted, I think youre agreeing to not use the non OGL stuff, even if its not copyrightable (IE the Exp Table).

The Pathfinder table is different because it needs to be, I believe.

Though Conan uses the same progression, and a different table layout, so I could be wrong.


Remember that Exp can be given for things other than killing. Getting a wife might get you some exp, running your farm successfully might get you some exp, raising a kid most definitely grants exp.

Dark Archive

I know I'm in the minority here, but I dont even grant combat exp anymore. I get alot of "split the party" and 4 people going off and doing their own thing for a bit, which can result in bit level gaps due to different amounts of combat.

Nowadays I pass out Exp like I'm running WoD or Unisystem. You get so much exp for coming out, and I give more exp for meeting other goals, like staying in character, doing something really cool, working to include other players in the game, staying in character, good tactics, staying in-character, keeping the game moving, etc. lol.

I make a checklist for what gets you exp. Doing stuff that should get you exp gets you exp, as does doing stuff that keeps the game running smoothly and fun for the other players, as does *not* making my life as DM miserable.

It results in more consistent pacing, and encourages the players to participate instead of sitting like a lump and just rolling the d20 when their turn comes up.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

To be honest we just level up when the GM says so.


I've always given XP out pretty arbitrarily--at a certain point, I started giving % of a level, rather than actual XP. That pretty much just made it so that every level took 100 XP. Then I skipped even that and just started giving levels every couple of sessions instead.

But that doesn't mean random peasants deserve XP.

And even beyond that, my point was less about "fudging" peasant stats and more about peasants just not mattering. Like, at all. The bartenders in my towns aren't 7th level or whatever. They're just bartenders. The players don't attack them--that's silly. If they use a spell on the bartender, it works. It's just some insignificant nobody that means nothing.

My PCs are larger than life awesome heroes. They are the only (non-villainous) people that matter enough to warrant stats.

Dark Archive

mplindustries wrote:
My PCs are larger than life awesome heroes. They are the only (non-villainous) people that matter enough to warrant stats.

My PCs are less outside the realm of the world they're in.

A farmer or his wife will be between levels 1 and 3.
A Hunter will be between levels 1 and 4.
The average town guard is going to be between levels 3 and 7.
Decent (unranked) soldiers levels 5-8.
An army general will be level 10-14.
A King is probably level 5-8 (He's born into it, and didnt have to work hard to get there)

Most NPCs above level 1 have levels in a PC Class.

Its worth noting that we almost never go above 14.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Paizo Products / Product Discussion / Requested Product: NPC Handbook All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Product Discussion