Goblin Squad Member
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I thought the idea behind brainstorming was to throw ideas out there, and identify which ones have merit to continue discussion. It's supposed to have a point, not just pointless sharing of ideas.
YMMV.
If one wants immersion, they, in most MMO's out there, can currently disable all chat windows and name tags so they don't see them.
This already exists and is, dare I say the standard.
Why are we even having this discussion?
Tailor your UI to what you want, and leave everybody else alone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I thought the idea behind brainstorming was to throw ideas out there, and identify which ones have merit to continue discussion. It's supposed to have a point, not just pointless sharing of ideas.
YMMV.
If one wants immersion, they, in most MMO's out there, can currently disable all chat windows and name tags so they don't see them.
This already exists and is, dare I say the standard.
Why are we even having this discussion?Tailor your UI to what you want, and leave everybody else alone.
What you say is true, yet its making immersion something exogenous, where as my arguement would state it should be endogenous.
To offer an example, when you play a TTRPG, you are forced to play within a given reality. Whether or not your character is called 'The Ownerer' and you decide to murder the whole village, you do so within the realm of the game and can only do so within the limitations set. Such a character does not break the game for those seeking an authentic reality because that reality is greater than any characters single actions. The level of immersion is set within the games through offering given set of realities and rules. The world is a world regardless or not of how the player cares to engage with it.
What you are suggesting is that a player simply change the shade of his sunglasses in order to exogenously attempt to immerse themselves in the world. This does not work. Offer players an easier route to achieving their goals and they will always take it on principal, filing away at every aspect of the game which gave it any authenticity.
Enough posts have stated the potential benefits of 'no immediate nameplates', such benefits could only exist given everyone following that realistic barrier. It would be an integral feature to the game which any player could overcome immediately and has everything in common with a very transferable RPG element of TTRPGs which I thought we were trying to bring to the MMORPG genre. If, in your TTRPG you were given a sheet mapping the names and occupations of every single NPC in the world then you'd definitely take and use it.
But it would %£$^ing suck.
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Goblin Squad Member
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See now you're splitting hairs.
If someone walks up in RP and addresses you by name on an RP server, I suppose that's a bad move.
Especially if he didn't use all of the other myriad of OOC things first, like tells or OOC chat channels.
If it got a tell from somebody asking for help, then I might go RP with them and excahnge names and see what he needs help with, or if anyone in general is asking in OOC chat, and it's a quest or NPC I also need help with, do the same.
Is every random player going to have to hire a crier or put up posters to get your character to help them? How far into the rabbit hole, how much playability (read ease of play) does the game have to sacrifice for your immersion?
Theres so much difference between a TTRPG and an MMO just in how you play it. Am I also going to be expected to only group with the very first group I join, simply because that's how it's done at a normal table top game? Or only work on what that the group leader decides?
In a home table top game you and your small group set the environment, the quests you take, and the tone of the campaign. You can not do that once millions of other players enter the picture.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes. You can.
And I CAN tell people I don't agree with that they are morons.
That doesn't make either a good idea.
You're free to believe that my criticism is a bad idea. I don't, and I don't imagine it's worthwhile to convince you it's not.
Your main argument is that other MMOs have done so and so, therefore that is what PFO must do. You will have to excuse me, but that's a pretty bad argument.
I'm not sure where you got the impression that was my main argument. It's not, and it troubles me that, despite the paragraphs of explanations I've given, this is your takeaway. It lends the impression that you're not really following along.
My main argument is that there are very real obstacles to implementing this system, both from a technical and logistical standpoint, and that the gain from implementing this system is negligible. You're essentially enforcing basic anonymity - I imagine that very few players want that, that a lot of players are going to be annoyed by the hurdles they will have to jump through, and that those who do like the system would be served just as well by making better use of systems that are already in place. You're trying to introduce subsystems into this game that go a long way towards enforcing some kind of roleplaying. That's a fool's errand.
I get that you feel that the responsibility lies on you to make certain that bad ideas aren't presented here without objections. However, I think you can safely relax and let Goblinworks make their game. When the time comes, it will be awesome even if someone has presented a bad idea on the boards that you missed.
There is a long and storied history in game development of devs saying "Give us suggestions!" and then hundreds of screaming fans shouting the equivalent of "Give us the ability to eat sleep and breathe this game!" and then the game coming out with none of those features, whereupon those same screaming fans begin screaming for blood, under the banner of "The devs ignored everything we said! All of our ideas were awesome!"
If you know your idea is bad and are just talking to talk, then cool. I'm not sure what purpose you think you're serving. Personally, I think that thread after thread of "Make death suck!" "Make having a horse suck!" "Make finding out someone's name suck!" "Make choosing your name suck!" is probably having the marked negative effect of burying some of those ideas which actually have merit and stand some chance of being implemented if the community rallies behind them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In a home table top game you and your small group set the environment, the quests you take, and the tone of the campaign. You can not do that once millions of other players enter the picture.
Sure you can, there are 6.8 billion of us playing RL...and we manage it fine. It actually ends up LESS overhead as ID information would be stored client-side.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Scott is definitely a character all right!
You bet I am.
This is more a matter of opinion than right or wrong
Spoken like a true wrong person.
Games have existed in the past in which lines of communication did not exist in the fashion we experience in modern games and nobody committed suicide.
Yes, that's a good argument.
"I have this great idea! We'll start a telephone service, except it'll only provide service to land-line rotary phones! Sure, everyone has cell phones, but people used these lines of communication in the past and nobody committed suicide! I'm sure we'll have tons of customers who prefer our service over the much more convenient and efficient services that are already out there!"
If this game omitted nameplates in some of the ways mentioned, this would not break or negatively influence gameplay beyond being that of a minor hindrance in regards to communication.
Well, and like eight other things. But the "minor hindrance" you've identified is, by itself, enough to discard this idea.
Auction houses/Trade boards overcome trade barriers. Social networking and IM programs used be all gamers overcome the barrier with communicating with friends.
Are you serious? "We'll make it so tough for players to communicate with each other in-game that they'll be forced to use Facebook and IM services just to talk."
Games do not actually need such open and instant means of communication, they're simply there for accessibility and for ease of play.
I don't know that you're listening to what you're saying. You just said, "Games don't need to be accessible." Seriously, that's what you said. Are you sure that's the approach you want to take to this?
We cannot forget that this is an adaptation of a roleplaying game.
This is an adaptation of a fantasy setting to the MMO format. You are not getting an immersive roleplaying game. You just aren't.
Scott religiously argues in favour of fun, and why not? World of Warcraft offers me nothing but access to content and removal of barriers, but it is precisely for these reasons it's losing its identity as an MMORPG.
I would argue that spending seven years as the most popular MMORPG in the western world says otherwise.
Players do not move in the game anymore,
Anymore? Man, it's hard to understand where you're coming from on this stuff.
the geography is dead
What geography is dead?
and the physical, tangible aspects of the game world have been eroded.
Such as?
Azeroth has become a satirical joke of itself and any such recreation of the gameplay culture created on any World of Warcraft server would render PFO unplayable for anyone but the World of Warcraft player. Don't forget that most people here play the RPG, not MMORPGs.
The Pathfinder forum base is probably not the scope of the target audience they're looking at.
Removal of barriers destroy immersion.
Removing the need to poop destroys immersion, but we sure as heck aren't going to need to poop in PFO. Immersion is - and should be! - destroyed for the sake of making the game enjoyable. Immersion is not at the top of the concerns list, and the moment you put it there, you have sabotaged your own game.
Such a replication in a Pathfinder MMORPG would produce a Pathfinder MMO, to which I see no point. Taking the RPG out of a Pathfinder MMORPG is like taking the intellectual property out of The Old Republic.
RPG is not as narrow a term as you would like it to be.
Should you simply be resurrected upon death because any downtime spent seeking resurrection would be nothing more than a time sink and a barrier?
Yes, with some minor and easily re-accrued penalty.
Or could it instil a fear of death which gives the game edge.
People will dislike dying regardless. This is just another "We should make X suck!" request. The majority of those requests are bad and should be ignored.
Should nameplates simply be given for everyone?
Yes.
Or could we use a roleplay function which could add many layers of depth to the game and stay true to the game's origins.
If you don't like nameplates, turn them off. And then /ignore anyone "immature" (read: normal) enough to message you referring to you by your actual character name.
If we imply that a removal of nameplates would equal a required removal of global chat and instant messaging amongst strangers; such developments are what establish a unique and living world on an online platform.
Yes, unique in the sense that is will be the only MMO played by its grand total of 50 subscribers, all of whom think PFO is the bee's knees and can't figure out why no one else wants to play.
Why? Because these are the barriers we deal with in everyday life to which we draw the contrast of authenticity.
Yeah, man, wouldn't it be cool and lots of fun if I could escape to a fantasy world for some casual, relaxing entertainment only to have to deal with the same frustrating barriers to socialization and communication that humanity had to slog through in the 19th century?
Geographical location becomes important. Trade hubs, pvp hubs, adventurer hubs, local communities in towns and villages. Silence brings people together where as globalised radio kills any such need for localised communities.
I...I... WHAT?
If you want to talk to a friend skype him, if you want to know the name of everyone then tough luck. Your in Golarion, meet them.
I'm having a hard time trying to tell whether people honestly think their ideas or good, or if they're engaged in a futile effort to sabotage a development process that hasn't even started yet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree almost entirely with you. I want this to be different. I don't want a WoW clone. I like the idea that I don't everyone. If I need to know someone then I will ask them. If I want my friends to know me I can let them know my name outside of the game so they can find me in-game. I don't want to walk down a street in the game and see elves walking by with "Drzzt420xXKILLAXx" or "Stinkybutt911" over their head. I only want to see the names of people I have met. More immersive = more fun to me.
And that's fine. But immersion at the expense of making the game playable is a great way to cripple your game before the race even starts.
However I am sure my opinion is counter to all of Mr. Bett's giant intellect
Oooh, tell me more!
and goes against all his massive knowledge on how the entire world works
You're too kind!
from RPGs to programming to communication to politics to marketing to ......
Well that's very sweet of you.
Good lord it's tiresome to try to have a thought around someone that not only knows it all but loves to tell you how you don't.
Waaaaaaaiiiiiit...
Was that all sarcasm? You wound me! Oh, frail mortality!
I fully expect this post to be broken down into 14 points and ridiculed to display my full ignorance on any topic I have expressed my opinion on. Go.
It's a wonder you even bothered to type it out!
Look, I'm not the only one saying this stuff. Lots of people here have a pretty solid grasp of what is good for an MMO and what is awful for it - Ettin, A Man In Black, Darwinism, Steel_Wind, etc. There is just, unfortunately, a pretty vocal contingent that has this vision of an MMO in their head - an MMO they would actually play - that is immersive and realistic and basically like playing Pathfinder the tabletop game except online with a ton of people. It's like they think this is finally going to be the MMO for people who hate MMOs!
It's not. This is going to be an MMO. If you hate MMOs and everything they stand for, you should probably look for your entertainment elsewhere. I hear there's this company called Paizo that makes a pretty popular tabletop roleplaying game. Maybe give that a try.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The big problem with this is that it doesn't provide for the initial anonymity people are looking for.If you're looking for anonymity and an immersive roleplaying experience, start the game up, disable floating names, disable all chat channels except /say, and enjoy your game!
But what right do you have to know who my character is if I do not want to share it with you? I want to play a secretive assassin but not only can you see my name, you can probably see a little icon with my class and level...how would you have access to that information?
Just have a setting where you can toggle other people's names off. That solves the immersion issue,
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Or ask for a game that provides a level of anonymity at the start. It isn't impossible or a fatal strike at the game's marketability and it may just be the refreshing change wanted by players that drives a change in the market despite some people's instant knowledge that X is wrong and will doom the project.
I don't want WoW in Golarion with some minor tweaks to gameplay. I want something different in an MMO. Seems like a lot of people also want that. Some are just satisfied being fed the rehashed crap in a different package, but others are looking for Pathfinder to be more.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But what right do you have to know who my character is if I do not want to share it with you?The right the game's designers gave me.
More importantly, what right do you have to keep that information a secret?
I can find philosophical and legal support that ones identity is their property, I am not saying we need to go that far in this game to TM everyone's character, but my argument has precedent. And as far as what the devs give you...they have not given anyone anything, which is why we are discussing WHAT if anything they should give you.
So again, what right do you have to know who my character is if I do not want to share it with you?
But what right do you have to know who my character is if I do not want to share it with you?The right the game's designers gave me.
More importantly, what right do you have to keep that information a secret?
I can find philosophical and legal support that ones identity is their property, I am not saying we need to go that far in this game to TM everyone's character, but my argument has precedent. And as far as what the devs give you...they have not given anyone anything, which is why we are discussing WHAT if anything they should give you.
So again, what right do you have to know who my character is if I do not want to share it with you?
Because it's a virtual world and no one is making you play or for that matter use your real name.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can find philosophical and legal support that ones identity is their property, I am not saying we need to go that far in this game to TM everyone's character, but my argument has precedent.
No, it doesn't.
And as far as what the devs give you...they have not given anyone anything, which is why we are discussing WHAT if anything they should give you.
Right. And they will give you the ability to know the name of characters you haven't yet been formally introduced to.
So again, what right do you have to know who my character is if I do not want to share it with you?
The right the game's designers will give me.
I think you're missing my point - rights don't enter into this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can find philosophical and legal support that ones identity is their property, I am not saying we need to go that far in this game to TM everyone's character, but my argument has precedent.No, it doesn't.
And as far as what the devs give you...they have not given anyone anything, which is why we are discussing WHAT if anything they should give you.Right. And they will give you the ability to know the name of characters you haven't yet been formally introduced to.
So again, what right do you have to know who my character is if I do not want to share it with you?The right the game's designers will give me.
I think you're missing my point - rights don't enter into this.
Well, as in every other discussion we have both been part of, we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I do not want to play WoW and you think every game that will ever be made must be made like WoW. And, since you have stated many times before your opinion = good and others = bad...and we know good triumphs over bad, so you win...congratulations. Mind if the rest of us get back to our discussion of ideas now?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Or ask for a game that provides a level of anonymity at the start. It isn't impossible or a fatal strike at the game's marketability and it may just be the refreshing change wanted by players that drives a change in the market despite some people's instant knowledge that X is wrong and will doom the project.
I'm not saying that it will singlehandedly doom the project. It will harm it. It will be bad for it. You shouldn't do it.
You've said what you had to say, and so have I. The devs will choose a direction.
I don't want WoW in Golarion with some minor tweaks to gameplay.
That's lucky for you, then! You're not going to get WoW in Golarion with some minor tweaks to gameplay!
I want something different in an MMO.
Cool! You're going to get something different!
Seems like a lot of people also want that.
Well, y'know, some do!
Some are just satisfied being fed the rehashed crap in a different package, but others are looking for Pathfinder to be more.
Woo! Go PFO!
But you're trying to make this game as different from WoW as possible. That's the wrong approach to take.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just have a setting where you can toggle other people's names off. That solves the immersion issue,How? I still have total strangers coming up to me going "Hey, A tank! Nice name, wanna go get some fat loot?".
You poor person. Life must be hell, to imagine having to deal with such a burden.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, as in every other discussion we have both been part of, we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I do not want to play WoW and you think every game that will ever be made must be made like WoW.
I'm not sure what's going on here. Are you being purposefully obtuse? Do you have a vested interest in twisting what's being said to you around?
I've never said that PFO should be made like WoW. I've never said anything close to that. In fact, I think PFO should be and will be different from WoW. In some important ways!
But you're looking at WoW and saying "I HATE WOW IT IS JUST THE WORST," and that seems to be the unifying philosophy driving your proposed design choices - if WoW did it, don't do it.
You're taking this so far as to cover whether names float above heads or not.
PFO and WoW will be different, but you know what will be similar between the two? The fact that you'll be able to know the names of characters you haven't been formally introduced to.
And, since you have stated many times before your opinion = good and others = bad...and we know good triumphs over bad, so you win...congratulations.
AWESOME!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wonder if there is a way to count how many people SB has chased out of these discussions...You poor person. Life must be hell, to imagine having to deal with such a burden.Just have a setting where you can toggle other people's names off. That solves the immersion issue,How? I still have total strangers coming up to me going "Hey, A tank! Nice name, wanna go get some fat loot?".
I have notches on my keyboard.
But, honestly? I really hope that I have. This sub-forum is getting too cluttered with too much chaff.
You poor person. Life must be hell, to imagine having to deal with such a burden.Just have a setting where you can toggle other people's names off. That solves the immersion issue,How? I still have total strangers coming up to me going "Hey, A tank! Nice name, wanna go get some fat loot?".
The player who toggles it off's immersion, not yours. If you want real immersion into a war-like environment join the military. We're talking about a idea game. There are limits. ;-)
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Goblin Squad Member
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The player who toggles it off's immersion, not yours. If you want real immersion into a war-like environment join the military. We're talking about a idea game. There are limits. ;-)You poor person. Life must be hell, to imagine having to deal with such a burden.Just have a setting where you can toggle other people's names off. That solves the immersion issue,How? I still have total strangers coming up to me going "Hey, A tank! Nice name, wanna go get some fat loot?".
How it is immersive for the person who toggles it off if everyone around them continues to treat them like they know everything about them...even if they did not want to share it?
How it is immersive for the person who toggles it off if everyone around them continues to treat them like they know everything about them...even if they did not want to share it?The player who toggles it off's immersion, not yours. If you want real immersion into a war-like environment join the military. We're talking about a idea game. There are limits. ;-)You poor person. Life must be hell, to imagine having to deal with such a burden.Just have a setting where you can toggle other people's names off. That solves the immersion issue,How? I still have total strangers coming up to me going "Hey, A tank! Nice name, wanna go get some fat loot?".
Perhaps an ignore function for the terminally antisocial? Alternately, simply don't respond. With this kind of chipper attitude on the subject I can't see a person being as inundated with "friendship requests" as you say.
Seriously it's a video game. Besides, in real life I have strangers talk to me all the time. "good morning." "How are you?" "Welcome to Walmart." OMG seriously people leave me alone! I've discovered screaming obscenities is the only way they truly understand not to speak to me. Until the police arrive and tazer me anyway.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Knowing a character name is important for all kinds of great PvP interaction. "Did you hear that Drag0nSlay3rXxx is in town? Let's find him!" Removing it would also create a lot of griefing problems. I like the RP intentions of making people talk about names, but I'm not sure that's worth the loss in interaction.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Perhaps an ignore function for the terminally antisocial? Alternately, simply don't respond. With this kind of chipper attitude on the subject I can't see a person being as inundated with "friendship requests" as you say.
I dont understand the relevance.
Seriously it's a video game. Besides, in real life I have strangers talk to me all the time. "good morning." "How are you?" "Welcome to Walmart." OMG seriously people leave me alone! I've discovered screaming obscenities is the only way they truly understand not to speak to me. Until the police arrive and tazer me anyway.
No one suggested limiting the ability to talk to others, only limiting the ability to metagame.
Perhaps an ignore function for the terminally antisocial? Alternately, simply don't respond. With this kind of chipper attitude on the subject I can't see a person being as inundated with "friendship requests" as you say.I dont understand the relevance.
Seriously it's a video game. Besides, in real life I have strangers talk to me all the time. "good morning." "How are you?" "Welcome to Walmart." OMG seriously people leave me alone! I've discovered screaming obscenities is the only way they truly understand not to speak to me. Until the police arrive and tazer me anyway.No one suggested limiting the ability to talk to others, only limiting the ability to metagame.
The former was good natured ribbing. The latter point was implying that if you don't want to talk to people than don't.
You're looking for a mechanic to ignore people. Most MMO's have something like that incorporated. I highly suspect the pathfinder one will also.
Basically you want to be able to hide your name. I see it as a non-issue. And don't be delusional enough to think you have "rights" in a video game. You have the right to play or not. Anything else is up to the creators. You can make suggestions, but the developers know that they can't make everyone happy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You're looking for a mechanic to ignore people. Most MMO's have something like that incorporated. I highly suspect the pathfinder one will also.Basically you want to be able to hide your name. I see it as a non-issue. And don't be delusional enough to think you have "rights" in a video game. You have the right to play or not. Anything else is up to the creators. You can make suggestions, but the developers know that they can't make everyone happy.
No one is asking for anything like what you suggest up top. As for the second, sure, I agree...but your argument again goes both ways. We were just trying to flesh out our arguments as to why not automatically giving everyone a name/guild/"class" plate is a better way to go for a game based on an RPG system. As you say, it is up to the devs, and if they agree with us...well the devs know they can't make everyone happy.
Well, then. I have just realized that you guys are right. Scott Betts and Tiny Coffee Golem, you are absolutely right that making any sort of change to the standards of how people communicate in a MMO is the worst kind of stupid. I have seen the light. Thank you for your convincing and respectful argumentation.
Well, then. I have just realized that you guys are right. Scott Betts and Tiny Coffee Golem, you are absolutely right that making any sort of change to the standards of how people communicate in a MMO is the worst kind of stupid. I have seen the light. Thank you for your convincing and respectful argumentation.
**raises eyebrow and attempts to determine sarcasm or not. It's hard with text.**
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, then. I have just realized that you guys are right. Scott Betts and Tiny Coffee Golem, you are absolutely right that making any sort of change to the standards of how people communicate in a MMO is the worst kind of stupid. I have seen the light. Thank you for your convincing and respectful argumentation.**raises eyebrow and attempts to determine sarcasm or not. It's hard with text.**
I'm going to guess at sarcasm. Let me know if I win anything.
I'm going to guess at sarcasm. Let me know if I win anything.Well, then. I have just realized that you guys are right. Scott Betts and Tiny Coffee Golem, you are absolutely right that making any sort of change to the standards of how people communicate in a MMO is the worst kind of stupid. I have seen the light. Thank you for your convincing and respectful argumentation.**raises eyebrow and attempts to determine sarcasm or not. It's hard with text.**
My assumption as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have several friends who spend a lot of time on RP servers on WoW and a few other games (mostly WoW admittedly) and I hear this complaint all the time. Even on those servers many people just don't know not to metagame.
So in order to uphold your standards of what is and isn't allowed as metagaming, you'll provide an extra barrier to communication that all players will have to overcome, not just the ones who want what you want.
Depends it could just be a Greifers paradise cuz when you report them...
Player: I need to report a griefer for teabagging me and killing off any attempts to rez me for 4 hours.
GM: Whats the players name?
Player: Umm.......Don't know it was a Half-Orc in a blue shirt and brown pants with greataxe.
So... perhaps a compromise would be for people whose nameplates are off are still revealed once they make an attack? This would prevent metagaming during social scenarios but allow reporting of anybody repeat-killing you.Depends it could just be a Greifers paradise cuz when you report them...
Player: I need to report a griefer for teabagging me and killing off any attempts to rez me for 4 hours.
GM: Whats the players name?
Player: Umm.......Don't know it was a Half-Orc in a blue shirt and brown pants with greataxe.
Helps some but in a social situation if i get told to go see One-Eyed Jim my guilds best leather worker and have to go off his description i dont know what to say but thats as bad as the people who want PF craft times in the game.
