RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Subject is the question,
ah... and would I get another 10? (as I took 10 the first time).
I don't have the PFS OrgPlay Guide in front of me, so I'm not sure how the shirt re-roll thing is worded. I would note that if it uses the common "after the roll is made but before the results are revealed" wording that several character abilities also use, then there wouldn't be much point in using it when you'd employed Take 10. If you're allowed to know the result first, though, I imagine it'd be fine. A "take 10" is still a check, just like any other. But again, I'd want to see the wording in the Guide first.
What would be the point of taking 10 and then using your re-roll to take 10 again? You'd get the same result.
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Unfortunately, I'd have to come down on the side of you likely not getting a reroll here, simply due to this line on shirt rerolls:
This reroll must happen before the original
result is determined and the player must use the reroll
result, even if it is lower.
I do hate curbing a player's enjoyment, but this does seem pretty clear. Now, I might reconsider, if you tell me the assumption I'm basing this on isn't correct, namely that you figured you were safe in this instance and took 10 on the check, and only after finding out you did not succeed did you wish to use the reroll.
The above thus assumes you did indeed know the original result, thus negating your chance at a reroll (to be honest, now that I think about it I doubt you could ever shirt reroll a take 10 situation since you would almost have to know the result before electing to reroll, the shirt is there more for those times you roll a 1 or 2 on an important save or attack and know that isn't going to cut it).
Actually, technically speaking, rolling a 1 on a save should preclude a reroll since the result would in fact be determined (you're toast), but I think most if not all here would let that slide.
Subject is the question,
ah... and would I get another 10? (as I took 10 the first time).
Shirt Rerolls
As a way of rewarding players who show their support for the Pathfinder Society Organized Play campaign by purchasing and wearing special tee shirts featuring campaign insignia or faction logos, a player wearing any of the shirts listed below during a Pathfinder Society event may reroll one d20 roll during the course of that scenario. This reroll must happen before the original result is determined and the player must use the reroll result, even if it is lower. Game Masters are also invited to wear Pathfinder Society Organized Play shirts, but gain no additional benefits from doing so.My hard-line interpretation: What you did was a skill check, not a d20 roll. Without rolling a die, there is nothing to re-roll.
Even if it was allowed, it would still happen before the result is determined. Meaning, if you take-10 on a check and fail, you can't shirt re-roll to see if you can get better than a 10.
If you take-10, then before the result is revealed, want to change that to a roll, I wouldn't use up your shirt bonus for that. That's like leaving your finger on the checker. ("I attack the king. Wait, wait! I meant something else!")
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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nosig, the shirt re-roll comes at such time as you've rolled, but don't yet know the results of your action.
Kind of like:
Player: "I roll my save. I rolled a 3. That's a total of 9. Um, let's re-roll that."
It's not like this:
Player: "I roll my save. I rolled a 3. That's a total of 9."
GM: "That fails."
Player: "I use my shirt re-roll."
So, let's say you wanted to reroll a Take 10.
Nosig: "I take 10. That's a total of 16. Um, let me use my shirt re-roll."
Why not just roll the d20 in the first place?
The Luck domain power never factors in, because you're using Take 10 to eliminate luck as a factor. You don't "take the better of 10 and 10" on a Take 10 Climb check any more than you would use the domain power when eating with a knife and fork. No opportunity for luck: no luck domain.
"Some Judges rule that my Trap Spotter talent is the same roll as my my T10 check when I am actively searching a room."
You should talk about this ahead of time. If you want to Take 10 on the general Perception roll, but want to let luck factor into your Trap Spotter talent, explain that. You never have to Take 10.
In a related matter, I think there could be valuing in rolling during take 10 situations and just considering the minimum role to be a 10.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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In a related matter, I think there could be a value to rolling during Take 10 situations and just considering the minimum roll to be a 10.
What would be the downside, illuminar? Why would anyone ever not do that? (It sounds like a the benefits to rolling with none of the related risks.)
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Ah. Sorry for the mis-read.
At my table, barring any clarifying FAQ, I would say "2" (the shirt allows the player to re-roll the dice action, and the domain power makes that dice action "roll 2d20 and take the better") and "no" (the domain power can't be used to roll and Take 10, because Taking 10 is removing chance from the equation).
But I wouldn't be surprised if another GM ruled differently.
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I think I would allow a player to use their reroll after taking 10, but only if they word it that way themselves. Im not going to force it on them, but if they are silly enough to say it, then sure, why not. :P
As far as rolling poorly, and wanting to use the shirt to give you a reroll on which you take a 10, I dont think id allow that. It gives you a roll, so roll the die.
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1st question
I have a Luck domain touch which lets me roll twice, and keep the better of the two. I roll a 3 and a 4. I want to re-roll (shirt),
Do I get one dice or two to re-roll this roll?
One. Its one re roll not one do over.
2nd question -
If I am using the Luck domain touch to get two rolls, can I T10 as one of these two rolls?
Lady luck is fickle, even for those she favors. I would say no.
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1st question. You get to re-roll ONE of the dice as is the rule. So, in your case your ability lets you roll twice and the the better. The reroll rule does not say, "Use your class/feat/etc ability again," it says, "can reroll one d20 roll during the course of that scenario." So your result of "3" and "4" would allow a reroll of one of those dice to gain a higher result. As take 10 is equivalent to a roll of the dice, just with an average result, I see little that would preclude you from using T10 on the reroll, though I can certainly see how a strict reading of the rule could be interpreted as you MUST "roll" a reroll. It is unclear if that is the intent.
2nd Question is a bit more tricky. Bit of luck says, "any time the target rolls a d20, he may roll twice and take the more favorable result." Taking10 says, "When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10."
A strict reading seems to indicate that taking 10 is not the same as rolling, but a special action that replaces rolling the dice. In that case, no, you could not use T10 with Bit of Luck as the latter clearly says "rolling." However, I think you will find some table variation as many GMs seem to give T10 the same weight as rolling and allow them to apply equally. Heck, I even see GMs routinely allow the reroll (with/out the addition of T10) after a result is discovered if the check is an important one such as a save or suck vs spell or a stabilize check vs. death, etc. Until/unless Paizo adds this specific piece to the clarification document or the FAQ, expect table variation.
Isn't taking ten on a roll the law domain ability?
No that makes it an 11 which is slightly better and works with all the rolls not just certain ones.
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Isn't taking ten on a roll the law domain ability?
Not exactly. The law domain says, "Touch of Law (Sp): You can touch a willing creature as a standard action, infusing it with the power of divine order and allowing it to treat all attack rolls, skill checks, ability checks, and saving throws for 1 round as if the natural d20 roll resulted in an 11." The ability removes the requirements of the T10 that you be "not in immediate danger or distracted" and it gives you an "11" on the result, not "10." It also applies to more types of d20 rolls than T10 which only applies to skill checks.
--ninja'd
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ok, now a couple "real life" examples:
1) An Ifrit with the Race Trait: ** spoiler omitted ** uses it to Take 10 on an Intimidate check - and one of the targets forces a Re-Roll.... can the Ifrit Take 10 on the re-roll, or does it HAVE to be a die roll?
2) A Player at the end of a game is making a Day Job check...he wants to re-roll the result, can he Take 10 on the Re-Roll?
As a table GM, I'd say yes to both.
nosig does bring up a good point, for the few interactions that would allow t10 what happens if a re-roll is forced by opposition?
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I have an Ifrit with the Race Trait: Fiery Gaze which normally allows me to Take 10 on Intimidate checks. When linked with the spell blistering invective it has proven very effective... if a "forced re-roll" would put it to a dice roll... perhaps not so effective.
You can't be getting hit with forced rerolls often enough to make your build around it... I'd let you take 10 on both because you can't really force a re roll if they're not rolling and its probably never going to come up again, and letting a player use a special ability when its situationally useful is pretty cool.
The two main opinions seem to be:
Take 10 is not a roll, so cannot be rerolled.
Take 10 is a "roll", so can be rerolled.
Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10.
I don't think it's a roll.
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It does seem like you are in the minority opinion here. Can you please expand on your view so we can better understand it. (Thank you).take 10 is treating as if you rolled a 10, nothing more.
So it seems since taking ten means you "rolled" a 10, meaning you should be able to reroll since you "rolled" and you should be able to take ten on the reroll since that is just "rolling" a 10 when you roll.
If you have a skill check and take 10 on it you can use your re-roll. The only thing a take 10 does is pretend you rolled a 10 on your die.
So take 10 doesn't stop or alter or affect or change anything that has to do with a die roll.If you use your re-roll, you can choose to have that be a take 10, assuming it's a qualifying roll (no distractions and whatnot). Your reroll is just you now rolling a 10.
So someone with 5 GM stars can take 10, reroll and take 10 with their +5 to "take 15".
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While the laws of the universe that we're in have a deeper, perfectly consistent layer that can be discovered through experimentation the game is not nearly that mechanically perfect or consistant. Looking for the underlying law when you have gone deeper than the rules and the explanations of the rules go is going to hit inconsistencies.
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If you have a skill check and take 10 on it you can use your re-roll.
Under "normal" circumstance, you would never choose to reroll a T10 unless you knew that would fail the check in which case you wouldn't T10 in the first place. Really the only time this would not be the case is with GM stars. If you wanted to use the T10 on the reroll with the star bonus, just roll the dice in the first place. If the roll is less than 10 plus your GM stars, then immediately ask for the reroll, and invoke T10. I think that should be fine.
The hardest part of adjudicating abilities like rerolls with the "before you know the results" limitation is that soo many skills have a static DC that the player knows prior to the check. Is it fair to let them reroll knowing they failed, but prior to the GM actually announcing it? I think each GM has to answer that for themselves.
IMO, the ruling of this topic will be "Expect table variation" unless Paizo weighs in.
so... does this mean you believe:
1) a player can NOT Take 10 on a re-roll? and
2) a player can NOT be forced to re-roll a check they used Take 10 on?
Yes to both.
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I think you guys are over complicating it. The rules say that take 10 is "as if you had rolled a 10". It doesn't say, "do not roll and use a 10". It's just a simulated die roll.
That being said, at the moment you find out if your take 10 failed it's too late to choose to reroll. Unless you know in advance what you're aiming for, then you're not going to take 10--you'd simply know in advance you should roll.
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why do you think that? I mean, where do you get that understanding from?And to actually answer the questions, my understanding is that you can not reroll a Take 10 (since you didn't roll initially) and you can't take 10 on a reroll (you have to actually re-roll).
For the first, because you have to declare the reroll after seeing the roll but before knowing the result; when you take 10 you have "seen the roll", so that would be the time to decide. I suppose in the case of someone with stars who wanted to "take 15", that falls into a niche case, but I doesn't feel right to me. Obviously that is a personal thing. Maybe letting a GM with stars use their reroll to "take 15" is a reasonable use.
For the latter, it is just how everyone locally has "always" done it ... it may be tribal knowledge from prior VOs, and possibly from interaction with Mike Brock. I don't have a citation or better explanation than that, so failing actual guidance it appears to be regional/table variation.
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I come down on the side of allowing both using a reroll on a take-10, and allowing a take-10 on a reroll. It's just simpler, and I don't see a strong argument against it.
I do agree that the reroll happens before you know the result, so the only practical reason to choose to reroll a take-10 is if there's some kind of additional bonus you get on the reroll (like the GM star bonus).
As for forcing a reroll of a take-10, that's also going to be situational, because it means the enemy has to be in a position where they can force the reroll, but the character is also not being threatened and thus able to take-10. So an invisible or hidden enemy while the character is making a skill check or something like that. In combat, it's not going to be an issue except for some rare abilities that allow take-10 under any circumstances. In those cases, I don't see why the player couldn't just take-10 on both dice.
So, for example, if an enemy witch Misfortunes a character, then someone Touch of Laws that character, I'd assume the character could just take-11 on both rolls of the Misfortune. At that point you're getting into very situational combinations of abilities, though, and a GM can just make a call on it that they feel is appropriate.
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Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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Holy thread necro batman!Well... things have changed in the years sense this was first posted. For example, back then, a player could NOT Take 10 on Day Job checks. And there weren't as many things that granted (or forced) a re-roll. Just checking to be sure things are done the same way...
like: If a Player Takes 10 on a check, and (before the results are known) declares that they want to take a Re-roll, are they still forced to Take 10 on the second check (which seemed to be the majority opinion back in 2011).
Im not saying its a bad thing. I was just really amazed. This thread qualifies for lichdom now ;)
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If you have a skill check and take 10 on it you can use your re-roll.Under "normal" circumstance, you would never choose to reroll a T10 unless you knew that would fail the check in which case you wouldn't T10 in the first place. Really the only time this would not be the case is with GM stars. If you wanted to use the T10 on the reroll with the star bonus, just roll the dice in the first place. If the roll is less than 10 plus your GM stars, then immediately ask for the reroll, and invoke T10. I think that should be fine.
The hardest part of adjudicating abilities like rerolls with the "before you know the results" limitation is that soo many skills have a static DC that the player knows prior to the check. Is it fair to let them reroll knowing they failed, but prior to the GM actually announcing it? I think each GM has to answer that for themselves.
IMO, the ruling of this topic will be "Expect table variation" unless Paizo weighs in.
know the results means GM announces the result. That's why you can reroll natural 1's. Even though you know the rules say you'll fail, until you tell the GM your roll and they tell you the result you're able to reroll.
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know the results means GM announces the result. That's why you can reroll natural 1's. Even though you know the rules say you'll fail, until you tell the GM your roll and they tell you the result you're able to reroll.
Again, I think you'll find opposing opinions on that. RE: table variation
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know the results means GM announces the result. That's why you can reroll natural 1's. Even though you know the rules say you'll fail, until you tell the GM your roll and they tell you the result you're able to reroll.Again, I think you'll find opposing opinions on that. RE: table variation
and I'm saying you shouldn't.
know the results MEANS GM announces the result.Until the GM announces it you might know what the result should be, but you haven't been told the result so you don't know the result.
sure people can get it wrong, but that's not something you should accept as table variation.
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Not to be argumentative, but can you site a source for YOUR interpretation of what knowing the result means? I'm not saying I would deny someone a reroll on a "1" but I would stop short of telling a GM they are wrong based on a strict reading of the rules text. Rolling a "1" IS knowing the result regardless of whether or not the GM chimes in. I'm not a fan of using that logic to deny a reroll, but the rules are not clear enough to definitively say it is one way or the other. Hence, the table variation comment.
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you roll a one. What has happened to your character?
Oh you don't know?
Well then you're free to reroll.
Can you site an example where you know the results of your roll before the GM tells you the results of your roll?
All a one is is that you know what the results should be, but until you tell the GM your total and he tells you the result of that you don't actually know the result.
You know you will fail, but you haven't yet failed.